Sinless Perfectionism

[Johann]

(1Thess 5:23 [ASV])
And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Try again.
J.

 

[HIM]

You are in a state of living a delusional style of life.
J.

Can't help yourself but sin? Incontinent? Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof? Give yourself to God FULLY and His and His Spirit through Jesus Christ. Who was manifested to take away our sin and the sin of the world. For if we commit sin we are a slave to it. But if the Son shall set you free, free you will be indeed. That the righteousness of the law may be manifested in you. But we must follow the Spirit and not the flesh. For if we follow the flesh we will die. But if through the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the Body we shall live. This is how the God of peace himself will sanctify you wholly; that your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. A glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that we be holy and without blemish before him in love. Amen

(2Tim 3:1 [KJV])
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

(2Tim 3:2 [KJV])
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

(2Tim 3:3 [KJV])
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

(2Tim 3:4 [KJV])
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

(2Tim 3:5 [KJV])
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[Johann]

(1Thess 5:23 [ASV])
And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

5:23 Now Paul prays for the sanctification of the Christians. The source is the God of peace. The scope is found in the word completely, meaning “every part of your being.”

This verse has been pressed into service by some to prove the “Holiness” doctrine of entire sanctification—that a believer can become sinlessly perfect in this life.

However, that is not what Paul means when he prays, the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. He is not praying for the eradication of the sin nature but rather that sanctification would extend to every part of their being—spirit, soul, and body.
EXCURSUS ON SANCTIFICATION
There are four phases of sanctification in the NT—pre-conversion, positional, practical or progressive, and perfect.
1. Even before a person is saved, he is set apart in a position of external privilege. Thus we read in 1Co_7:14 that an unbelieving husband is sanctified by his believing wife. This is pre-conversion sanctification.

2. Whenever a person is born again, he is positionally sanctified by virtue of his union with Christ. This means that he is set apart to God from the world. It is referred to in such passages as Act_26:18; 1Co_1:2; 1Co_6:11; 2Th_2:13; Heb_10:10, Heb_10:14.

3. But then there is progressive sanctification. This is a present setting apart of the believer to God from the world, sin, and self. It is the process by which he becomes more Christlike. This is the sanctification which Paul prays for the Thessalonians here. It is also found in 1Th_4:3-4; 2Ti_2:21. It is brought about by the Holy Spirit when we are obedient to the word of God (Joh_17:17; 2Co_3:18). Such practical sanctification is a process that should continue as long as the believer is on earth. He will never achieve perfection or sinlessness on earth, but he should ever be pressing toward that goal.

4. Perfect sanctification refers to the believer's final condition in heaven. When he goes to be with the Lord, he will be morally like the Lord, completely and finally set apart from sin (1Jn_3:1-3).

Try again, you "cut out" the progressive sanctification" thus becoming a god in this life.

J.

 

[Johann]

Can't help yourself but sin? Incontinent? Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof?

Careful with your erroneous assumptions directed at me.
Are believers in Christ deliberately keep on living in a STATE of sinning, like unbelievers?

J.

 

[HIM]

5:23 Now Paul prays for the sanctification of the Christians. The source is the God of peace. The scope is found in the word completely, meaning “every part of your being.”

This verse has been pressed into service by some to prove the “Holiness” doctrine of entire sanctification—that a believer can become sinlessly perfect in this life.

However, that is not what Paul means when he prays, the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. He is not praying for the eradication of the sin nature but rather that sanctification would extend to every part of their being—spirit, soul, and body.
EXCURSUS ON SANCTIFICATION
There are four phases of sanctification in the NT—pre-conversion, positional, practical or progressive, and perfect.
1. Even before a person is saved, he is set apart in a position of external privilege. Thus we read in 1Co_7:14 that an unbelieving husband is sanctified by his believing wife. This is pre-conversion sanctification.

2. Whenever a person is born again, he is positionally sanctified by virtue of his union with Christ. This means that he is set apart to God from the world. It is referred to in such passages as Act_26:18; 1Co_1:2; 1Co_6:11; 2Th_2:13; Heb_10:10, Heb_10:14.

3. But then there is progressive sanctification. This is a present setting apart of the believer to God from the world, sin, and self. It is the process by which he becomes more Christlike. This is the sanctification which Paul prays for the Thessalonians here. It is also found in 1Th_4:3-4; 2Ti_2:21. It is brought about by the Holy Spirit when we are obedient to the word of God (Joh_17:17; 2Co_3:18). Such practical sanctification is a process that should continue as long as the believer is on earth. He will never achieve perfection or sinlessness on earth, but he should ever be pressing toward that goal.

4. Perfect sanctification refers to the believer's final condition in heaven. When he goes to be with the Lord, he will be morally like the Lord, completely and finally set apart from sin (1Jn_3:1-3).

Try again, you "cut out" the progressive sanctification" thus becoming a god in this life.

J.

First: If it were not possible Paul through God would not of said it. We are to be of the Faith. It it is not of the Faith it is of sin. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let not that man think he shall receive anything from the Lord.

Second thing it is not a prayer. Paul lays out a plan. He says rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks, quench not the Spirit, not despising prophesying, proving all things, holding on to the good. Abstaining from all appearances of evil. Then he continues and says, the very God of peace may sanctify us wholly. This is Paul’s hope or desire. And the prescribed plan proceeding it if done through the Spirit is how it is achieved.

1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[HIM]

Careful with your erroneous assumptions directed at me.
Are believers in Christ deliberately keep on living in a STATE of sinning, like unbelievers?

J.

It is a question but, We will say as directed.

As to answer your question no. But then we are not to be in a state of incontinence either. However if we do sin we have an advocate towards the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[Johann]

It is a question but, We will say as directed.

As to answer your question no. But then we are not to be in a state of incontinence either. However if we do sin we have an advocate towards the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord

So you admit believers do commit acts of sin, hence the need to go to Christ as our advocate.
Note carefully, committing acts of shortcomings, not habitual sinning.
J.

 

[HIM]

So you admit believers do commit acts of sin, hence the need to go to Christ as our advocate.
Note carefully, committing acts of shortcomings, not habitual sinning.
J.

We will not take away from what God can do through and to us. But IF we sin we have an advocate. What is a shortcoming? They whom KNOW to do good and do it not, to them it is sin. What if we do not know or act impulsively, without thinking due to stress?

 

[Johann]

We will not take away from what God can do through and to us. But IF we sin we have an advocate. What is a shortcoming? They whom KNOW to do good and do it not, to them it is sin. What if we do not know or act impulsively, without thinking due to stress?

Do you understand the indicatives and Imperatives as recorded in scriptures?

Absolutely correct, what IF we do not know or act impulsively?
J.

 

[Johann]

We will not take away from what God can do through and to us. But IF we sin we have an advocate. What is a shortcoming? They whom KNOW to do good and do it not, to them it is sin. What if we do not know or act impulsively, without thinking due to stress?

Who are the 'WE?"....

 

[Johann]

It is a question but, We will say as directed.

As to answer your question no. But then we are not to be in a state of incontinence either. However if we do sin we have an advocate towards the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[Johann]

Shalom brother
J.

 

[HIM]

Do you understand the indicatives and Imperatives as recorded in scriptures?

Absolutely correct, what IF we do not know or act impulsively?
J.

You didn’t answer the question. Take care.

 

[HIM]

Shalom brother
J.

This is a discussion if I wanted to watch a video I wouldn’t be here.

 

[Johann]

This is a discussion if I wanted to watch a video I wouldn’t be here.

I don't hold to sinless perfection, so there is nothing to discuss.
Funny how the majority are "available" on weekends to discuss, but silent during the week.
You don't want to "listen" to the video clip, then I am not "listening" to you.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

You didn’t answer the question. Take care.

Maybe you are unaware of the Indicatives and Imperatives.
J.

 

[Johann]

This is a discussion if I wanted to watch a video I wouldn’t be here.

Reason why you don't want to listen to the video is because you know it all, no need for anyone to teach you.
Shalom
J.

 

[HIM]

I don't hold to sinless perfection, so there is nothing to discuss.
Funny how the majority are "available" on weekends to discuss, but silent during the week.
You don't want to "listen" to the video clip, then I am not "listening" to you.
Shalom
J.

It don't matter what you or I hold, God shows it is possible through Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Even when Jesus was called Good He did not take any credit but said, "There is known good but one that is God".

Yes, Jesus who is God (second person of the Godhead) was indeed being humble in that instance. Well said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

See how you redefine scriptures?
In certain quarters this Gnostic belief went even further. The Gnostic was the man who had gnosis (G1108), knowledge. Some held that the real Gnostic must, therefore, know the best as well as the worst and must enter into every experience of life at its highest or at its deepest level, as the case may be. It might almost be said that such men held that it was an obligation to sin. There is a reference to this kind of belief in the letter to Thyatira in the Revelation, where the Risen Christ refers to those who have known "the deep things of Satan" (Rev_2:24). And it may well be that John is referring to these people when he insists that "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1Jn_1:5). These particular Gnostics would have held that there was in God not only blazing light but deep darkness and that a man must penetrate both. It is easy to see the disastrous consequences of such a belief.

(3) There was a third kind of Gnostic belief. The true Gnostic regarded himself as an altogether spiritual man, as having shed all the material things of life and released his spirit from the bondage of matter. Such Gnostics held that they were so spiritual that they were above and beyond sin and had reached spiritual perfection. It is to them that John refers when he speaks of those who deceive themselves by saying that they have no sin (1Jn_1:8-10).

Whichever of these three ways Gnostic belief took, its ethical consequences were perilous in the extreme; and it is clear that its last two were to be found in the society to which John wrote.
1Ki_22:34, “One drew a bow לתמוּ letumô in the simplicity (or perfection) of his heart;” that is, without any evil intention; compare 2Sa_15:11; Pro_10:9. The proper notion, therefore, is that of simplicity. sincerity, absence from guile or evil intention, and completeness of parts in his religion. That he was a man absolutely sinless, or without any propensity to evil, is disproved alike by the spirit of complaining which he often evinces, and by his own confession, Job_9:20 :
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me;
If I say I am perfect, it shall prove me perverse.
So also Job_42:5-6 :
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear,
But now mine eye seeth thee;
Wherefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.
Compare Ecc_7:20.
And upright - The word ישׁר yâshâr, from ישׁר yâshar, to be straight, is applied often to a road which is straight, or to a path which is level or even. As used here it means upright or righteous; compare Psa_11:7; Psa_37:14,; Deu_32:4; Psa_33:4.
And one that feared God - Religion in the Scriptures is often represented as the fear of God; Pro_1:7, Pro_1:29; Pro_2:5; Pro_8:13; Pro_14:26-27; Isa_11:2; Act_9:31, “et soepe al.”
And eschewed evil - “And departed from (סוּר sûr) evil.” Septuagint, “Abstaining from every evil thing.” These then are the four characteristics of Job’s piety - he was sincere; upright; a worshipper of God; and one who abstained from all wrong. These are the essential elements of true religion everywhere; and the whole statement in the book of Job shows Job was, though not absolutely free from the sins which cleave to our nature, eminent in each of these things.

Hmm, like I have said to marks, you guys do believe in positional sanctification, but the "progressive part"


Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3:18 In the Old Covenant, Moses alone was allowed to see the glory of the Lord. Under the New Covenant, we all have the privilege of beholding ... the glory of the Lord. Moses' face had to be veiled after he had finished speaking with the people, but we can have an unveiled face. We can keep our face unveiled by confessing and forsaking sin, by being completely honest with God and ourselves. As a veteran missionary to India once said, we must “drop the veils of sin, of make-believe, all play-acting, all putting up of unreal fronts, all attempts at compromises, all halfway measures, all Yes and No.”


The next step is beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord. The mirror is the word of God. As we go to the Bible, we see the Lord Jesus revealed in all His splendor. We do not yet see Him face to face, but only as mirrored in the word.
And note that it is the glory of the Lord that we behold. Here Paul is not thinking so much of the moral beauty of Jesus as a Man here on earth, but rather of His present glory, exalted at the right hand of God. The glory of Christ, as Denney points out, is that:


He shares the Father's throne, that He is the Head of the Church, possessor and bestower of all the fulness of divine grace, the coming Judge of the world, conqueror of every hostile power, intercessor for His own, and, in short, bearer of all the majesty which belongs to His kingly office.
As we are occupied with the glory of the risen, ascended, exalted Lord Jesus Christ, we are being transformed into the same image. Here, in a word, is the secret of Christian holiness—occupation with Christ. Not by occupation with self; that brings only defeat.


Not by occupation with others; that brings disappointment. But by occupation with the glory of the Lord, we become more and more like Him.
This marvelous, transforming process takes place from glory to glory, that is, from one degree of glory to another. It is not a matter of instant change. There is no experience in the Christian life that will reproduce His image in a moment. It is a process, not a crisis. It is not like the fading glory of the law, but an ever-increasing glory.

Cutting out, with scissors, the progressive sanctification part, you are god, nothing to be judged for, no need to stand before the Judge, you have already receive your reward in this life.

Tell me, Billy the Kid, are "babes in Christ" also sinless?

J.

Well, first, I am not going to watch all those videos you sent (Because I am aware of the common arguments already). I have been aware of this topic for a long time and have discussed it on numerous occasions with the Bible. I have already provided verses that use the word “perfect” in the sentence. There are other words that express the same thought in Scripture, as well (like blameless, etcetera).

Second, you don’t understand my viewpoint on Sinless Perfection. You think we believe it means we have to all be Sinlessly perfect right now or we are toast. Believers need to learn and grow. They generally don’t go from zero to hero overnight. Believers go through a Sanctification Process (2 Corinthians 7:1). But they are not in a Sanctification Process until death. There comes a point where the believer actually matures and grows to a point of being perfect as God desires them to be. When that is depends on the individual. Do they really want to be perfect? It just doesn’t seem like you desire to be. Also, to be perfect does not mean we will say we are perfect, either. A perfect Christian in Christ is going to think they are nothing and they will continually judge themselves constantly to remain in Christ. So there is not going to be any cult leader claiming to be perfect and how he demands how they must follow him. That would be a twist or distortion on such a doctrine. Christians are humble and they will inspire others to follow them by their actions of love involving the faith. A Christian who be perfect in this life would be serving others, and esteeming others better than themselves (Yet, they will not approve of any sin). They would have taken up their cross, denied themselves, and followed Jesus.

Three, what should end this argument right here and right now is do you have the mind of Christ? (See 1 Corinthians 2:16).
Paul said we have the mind of Christ. Jesus did not justify sin or imperfection like you believe. So you don’t have the mind of Christ.

Four, I did not redefine 1 John 1:8. I am only reading it based on the supporting context. If the context supported how we are slaves to sin, then that would be different. But it simply doesn’t. Unfortunately, you actually redefined Scripture when you attempted to play the original languages game with 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, and 1 Peter 4:1-2 (Which was an attempt to deny what these verses plainly say in English). Funny how you believe 1 John 1:8 in English (out of context). Anyone can read Scripture the wrong way. Do you believe God directly created evil according to Isaiah 45:7? There are Christians who wrongfully believe Isaiah 45:7 is talking about how God directly created evil (by our modern understanding of that word). They have also implied to me that I am not believing this verse. So we have to rightly divide based on the context and by looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word and not by playing some original languages game (whereby there is no real authority but in oneself and the Modern scholar).