No it's not. Citing another view is not addressing the points made. Nothing you posted addresses the points made. With that said unless you do there is no point going back and forth with you. Take care
Sinless Perfectionism
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!
A number of cults use the false doctrine known as sinless perfection to achieve this control-through-fear. This teaching says that it is possible to reach a state of sinless perfection in this life. Furthermore, that one must reach this state in order to be saved. The Church of Jesus Christ Forever in Oregon, Illinois teaches this fallacy. The teaching is clearly outlined on their website, PerfectChurch.com.
Once a group embraces the doctrine of sinless perfection, other errors are likely to follow. The cult leader can self-proclaim as one who has reached this exalted state. Once he or she is considered to be a “perfect” leader or prophet, it is only one small step further to conclude that the prophet’s words are tantamount to being the infallible word of God. After all, it is reasoned, how could a sinless and perfect prophet ever say anything amiss?
The final step in the progression of error is to announce that disobedience to the leader’s command is considered rebellion against God. At that point people are conditioned to accept punishment for failing to obey the words of God Almighty who has spoken through His perfect and sinless prophet.
By this means people are made afraid – afraid to question or disobey the prophet or do anything which he does not approve. To do so would bring the punishment of God and chastisement from the perfect prophet.
Instead of a gospel that encourages people to have a living relationship with Jesus, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and walk in love with joy and gratitude for sins forgiven, the cultic gospel is a legalistic religion wherein one is always striving by their own works to obtain the approval of the leader or of the church hierarchy.
From your link, and I agree with this post Dan.
Shun these sinless perfection freaks and concentrate on your own walk with our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, each of us must give an account of ourselves, in word, thought and deed.
Keep on fighting the good fight of faith brother.
J.
Look at esesthe/eimi...
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Future
Voice: no voice stated
Mood: Indicative
Person: second [you+]
Number: Plural
Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father,.... This perfection is to be restrained to the subject Christ is upon, love to men, and not to be referred to any, or every other thing; wherefore, in Luk_6:36 it is, "be ye merciful, as your Father also is merciful"; and regards not a perfection of degree in that, but objects and quality: that is to say, not that men may, or can, or ought to be as perfect in love, as to the degree of it, as God is; that is impossible:
the "as" here, is not a note of equality, but of likeness: such, who profess God to be their Father, ought to imitate him, particularly in their love to men, which ought to be extended to the same objects, as the divine goodness is; that, as he shows regard in a providential way to all men, good and bad, just and unjust, and his tender mercies are over all his works; so ought they to love all men with a natural affection, and hate no man, no, not their enemies:
for he that loves only his friends, and not his enemies, loves imperfectly; he does not take in the whole compass of objects his love is to extend unto; and as God loves sincerely, and without dissimulation, so should they. To be "perfect", is to be sincere and upright: in this sense is the word often used, and answers to the Hebrew word תמים, which signifies the same: see Deu_18:13 which is the passage Christ seems to refer to here; and the sense is, be ye sincere and upright in your love to all men, as your heavenly Father is hearty and sincere in his affections to them.
Gill
Pretty self explanatory.
J.
Attachments
Careful, Dan is as much a brother in Christ as you claim to be, and make sure the accusing scripture reference is to you first.
J.
Twisting the Scripture
Cults that teach the doctrine of sinless perfection promote their teaching from a misunderstanding of Matthew 5:48 where Jesus says: “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
From this it is claimed that “must” here means you are not saved if you are not as perfect as God. However, that is not what the passage says at all. The passage is not talking about salvation. Rather, this passage is about love. Let us examine the context:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
We see that Jesus is talking about how to love properly, the way God does. The passage is not, primarily, about how to be saved. The teaching is that to love as God does, we should also love those who don’t love us back, even love those who hate us. Jesus calls this kind of love perfect love.
The passage loses a bit of meaning in translation into English. In the original Greek of Scripture, the meaning is plainer. The word used for “perfect” in this passage is TELEIOS. The definition of teleios is: “Totality, whole, or without blemish. Fully developed. Mature in mental & moral character. Full development, growth into maturity of godliness. Signifies consummate soundness, and includes the idea of being whole.”
Jesus is saying that to have fully developed mature love, as God desires, we must love even our enemies. That is quite a bit different than saying to be saved you have to be as perfect as God in every way, as the cultists twist it to mean.
The same form of the Greek word teleios is used in Philippians 1:6 where we read, “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”
God is perfecting (teleios) us, meaning he is maturing us. Until when? Until the day of Christ. God continues to develop us toward maturity until Christ returns, when we receive our glorified bodies. That is what that passage says. It is then that we are delivered from the very presence of sin in our lives.
This is the way I believe what stands written, and no sinless freak is going to convince me otherwise.
J.
Behold
Well-Known Member
You need to read less "articles' and a lot more bible.
Thats a fact.
You endlessly seem to chase some new theory, doctrine, opinion.
The bible is the authority, not the next "article"...
Hebrews 13:9, is where you need to go and stay awhile.
Also,
The born again are "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
There is no sin found there..
Will a believer stumble, or have issues with the body and the mind?
Of course.
But this can be resolved and the believer can become this ...."Christ always gives me the VICTORY".... over the world, the flesh, and the devil.
Glad you have mentioned this, initial sanctification and progressive.
But we have at least four prominent members who believe they are absolutely sinless, in word, thought and deed.
What say you?
What ever I have at my disposal re secondary sources is my business, not for you to question me what, and what I should not use.
By the way, KJV-Onlyists is a cult, did you know that?
There are many here claiming they have read the bible through, did they?
Head gnosis is just that, gnosis, from Gnosticism.
Having head knowledge is one thing, putting it into practice is quite another thing.
Yes?
J.
Heb 13:9 Do not be carried about by different and varied and alien teachings; for it is good for the heart to be established and ennobled and strengthened by means of grace (God's favor and spiritual blessing) and not [to be devoted to] foods [rules of diet and ritualistic meals], which bring no [spiritual] benefit or profit to those who observe them.
Heb 13:10 We have an altar from which those who serve and worship in the tabernacle have no right to eat.
Heb 13:11 For when the blood of animals is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin, the victims' bodies are burned outside the limits of the camp. [Lev_16:27]
AMPC
Be not carried about (μὴ παραφέρεσθε)
A.V. follows T.R. περιφέρεσθε. Rend. “carried away.” The present tense indicates a present and active danger.
With divers and strange doctrines (διδαχαῖς ποικίλαις καὶ ξέναις)
For “doctrines” rend. “teachings.”
These teachings represent various phases of one radical error - the denial of Jesus's messiahship and of his messianic economy as superseding Judaism and all other means of salvation.
Among them the writer's mind would naturally turn to the prescriptions concerning clean and unclean meats and sacrificial festivals.
See next clause. These teachings were various as contrasted with the one teaching of the gospel; they were strange as they differed from that teaching. Comp. Gal_1:6-9. For ποικίλαις see on 2Ti_3:16.
That the heart be established (βεβαιοῦσθαι τὴν καρδίαν)
There is an emphasis on heart as well as on grace. These strange teachings all emphasized externalism, in contrast with Christianity, which insisted upon the purification of the heart and conscience. The contrast is strongly stated in Heb_9:9, Heb_9:14, and the Epistle constantly directs the readers to the heart as the true point of contact with God, and the source of all departures from him. See Heb_3:8, Heb_3:10, Heb_3:12, Heb_3:15; Heb_4:7, Heb_4:12; Heb_8:10; especially Heb_10:22. Hence, the writer says, “it is good that the solid basis of your assurance before God be in the heart, purged from an evil conscience, so that you can draw near to God with a firmly-established confidence, with a true heart, in full assurance of faith”: Heb_10:22; comp. 1Th_3:13; 2Ti_2:22.
With grace, not with meats (χάριτι οὐ βρώμασιν)
The heart is the proper seat of the work of grace. Free grace is the motive-power of Christ's sacrifice (2Co_8:9; Gal_1:15); it is behind the blood of the new covenant, and is the energetic principle of its saving operation. See Rom_5:2, Rom_5:15; 1Co_15:10; Eph_2:5, Eph_2:7, Eph_2:8; 2Th_2:16; Heb_2:9; Heb_4:16; Heb_10:29. With meats stands for the whole system of ceremonial observances, in contrast with grace, working on the heart. See Heb_9:10. This ceremonial system yielded no permanent benefit to those who lived under it. See Heb_7:25; Heb_9:9, Heb_9:13, Heb_9:14; Heb_10:1, Heb_10:2, Heb_10:4.
Which have not profited them that have been occupied therein (ἐν οἶς οὐκ ὠφελήθησαν οἱ περιπατοῦντες)
Lit. in the which they who walked were not profited. Περιπατεῖν to walk about is often used to express habitual practice or general conduct of life. See Rom_6:4; 2Co_10:3; Eph_2:10; Col_3:7; Col_4:5.
Vincent
Just to put it in context for you.
carried about. or, carried away (LNT). Gr. peripherō (S# G4064, 2Co_4:10). You must [not] be carried away translates parapheresthe, a present passive imperative. It is of interest to note, they are being commanded (imperative) to not allow themselves to be acted upon by the outside force (passive) of deceitful and strange teachings (cf. 1Co_6:9; Jas_4:7 and notes) [LNT, fn j].
The present tense indicates a present and active danger (Vincent).
Heb_2:1, 1Sa_21:13, +*Mat_24:4; +*Mat_24:24, Act_17:19-20; Act_20:30, Rom_16:17-18, **2Co_11:11-15, +*Gal_1:6-9; *Gal_2:13, +**Eph_4:14; Eph_5:6, *Col_2:4; *Col_2:8, 2Th_2:2, *1Ti_4:1-3; 1Ti_6:3-5; 1Ti_6:20, *1Jn_4:1, +*Jud_1:3; +*Jud_1:12.
with divers. or, manifold (Young). or, deceitful (LNT). Gr. poikilos (S# G4164, Mat_4:24), motley, that is, various in character (Strong); pertaining to that which exists in a variety of kinds—’of various kinds, diversified’ (L-N 58.45). Heb_2:4, Mat_4:24, Eph_3:10; %Eph_4:5, 1Ti_1:4, 2Ti_3:6, 1Pe_4:10.
and strange. Gr. xenos (S# G3581, Eph_2:12), alien to the Gospel. Heb_2:1, **Gal_1:6-9, %Col_2:8, 1Pe_4:12.
doctrines. or, teachings.
**Mat_15:9, Luk_5:38, Col_2:22, **1Ti_4:1; 1Ti_4:16, %2Ti_1:13; %**2Ti_3:10; **2Ti_3:14, %Tit_1:13, %+*2Jn_1:10, %+*Jud_1:3.
For it is a good thing. Heb_10:24, Mat_17:4, Act_20:32, Rom_14:21, 1Co_7:1; 1Co_7:8; 1Co_7:26, 2Co_1:21, Gal_4:18; *Gal_6:1, 2Th_2:17, 2Ti_2:1-2.
the heart. Heb_3:8; Heb_3:10; Heb_3:12; Heb_3:15; Heb_4:7; Heb_4:12; Heb_8:10; +*Heb_10:22, Psa_112:8; *Psa_104:14; *Psa_104:15, +**Pro_4:23, 1Th_3:13, 2Ti_2:22.
be established. Gr. bebaioō (S# G950, Mar_16:20). Heb_2:3 g. +*Heb_10:35, Psa_112:8, Act_16:5, Rom_1:11, +1Co_1:8, 2Co_1:21, +**Col_1:23; +*Col_2:7, Jas_1:6, 2Pe_1:12.
with. or, by. No preposition here: dative case.
grace. Gr. charis (S# G5485, Php_1:7). Heb_2:9; +*Heb_4:16; Heb_10:29, +*Joh_1:17, +*Act_13:43, Rom_5:2; Rom_5:15, +**1Co_15:10, 2Co_8:9, Gal_1:15, Eph_2:5; Eph_2:7-8, 2Th_2:16.
not with meats. FS171K1, +Deu_19:5, By the Figure Synecdochē (of Species), meats is put as one of many possible examples of various and "strange doctrines" of no profit to those who practice them (see CB). %*Heb_7:25, See on Heb_9:9; *Heb_9:10; Heb_9:13-14; Heb_10:1-2; Heb_10:4, Lev_11:2; Lev_11:34, Deu_14:3-21, *Jdg_19:5, Psa_104:15, Isa_3:1, Mat_14:15; Mat_15:11, Mar_7:15, Luk_3:11, Act_10:14-16, **Rom_14:2-4; **Rom_14:6; **Rom_14:15; **Rom_14:17, 1Co_6:13; *1Co_8:8; *1Co_8:13, **Gal_4:9; **Gal_4:10 note. Eph_5:18, **+Col_2:16-20, **1Ti_4:3-5, Tit_1:14-15.
which. or, in which they who walked have not been profited. See Heb_4:2 (CB). +*Act_21:21.
not profited. Heb_7:18, *Joh_6:63, Rom_3:1, 1Co_3:12; *1Co_13:3; 1Co_14:6, 2Co_11:3, +*1Ti_4:8, 2Ti_2:14, Jas_2:14.
occupied therein. Gr. peripateō (S# G4043), to tread all around, that is, walk at large (especially as proof of ability); figuratively to live, deport oneself, follow (as a companion or votary) [Strong], often used to express habitual practice or conduct of life (Vincent). Heb_9:10, Rom_6:4, 2Co_10:3, *Eph_2:10, Col_3:7; *Col_4:5.
Yes?
J.
Your issue is with God and HIS Word not me. But by all means please continue deflecting and talk about me.
(2Tim 3:2 [KJV])
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(2Tim 3:3 [KJV])
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(2Tim 3:4 [KJV])
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(2Tim 3:5 [KJV])
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Yet Michael the Arch angel when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses durst not bring against him railing accusations, but said, The Lord rebuke thee
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Jesus said to “sin no more” to two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
1 Peter 4:1-2 basically says that the person who suffers in the flesh can cease from sin, and that we should live the rest of our time to the will of God and not to the will of the flesh.
Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.
2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
(See the King James Bible).
Note: I know you think the King James Bible is not the divinely inspired Word of God.
But if it is not the KJB, then can you point us to any infallible, perfect, divinely inspired Bible (that is in an actual Book) that we can hold in our hands? Most who reject the KJB do not believe any Bible is infallible and the originals (that were perfect) are gone.
So then YOU or some other Modern scholar become the authority in telling us what the Bible says (with them not believing any Bible is perfect on our planet). But if you don’t have a perfect Bible, then how do you know the doctrines you have are correct or not.
While I came up with 101 reasons for the King James Bible, here are 30 of them.
30 Reasons why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today (Update: KJVO Posters Only)
30 Reasons Why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today: Updated Thread Rule: I created a new thread rule so as to stop the heated discussion and the personal attacks. I know Anti-KJV Only Proponents have already posted here for about 30 pages since the creation of this thread...
www.christianforums.com
Note: Please keep in mind that I do use Modern Translations to help update the archaic words or the 1600's English in the KJB, but Modern Bibles simply are not my final word of authority like the KJB (Because they alter things for the worse and not for the better in many verses).
No. It’s a heresy to say so otherwise because God actually does tell us to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16).
Our hope is in Christ alone but it would include not only trusting the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but it would also include believing that Christ will finish the good work in us (of which He began) (Philippians 1:6).
Paul says we have the mind of Christ.
Do you believe Jesus sinned?
Jesus' mind was always against sin (Because He is GOD), and your mind should be the same way (1 Corinthians 2:16). Do you have the mind of Christ? Certainly not. You defend how the believer must sin.
Does not Matthew 6:12 tell us to forgive us our debts which is a part of the Lord’s Prayer?
Answer: Well, I used to think that the Lord’s prayer was a daily prayer for all believers (to be prayed as an outline) over the course of our whole lives. But after examining the Scriptures, this is simply not so. First, of all, it does not say it is a daily prayer. Second, while this prayer can be prayed in a daily manner (as an outline), it is a prayer for new believers in the faith. It is a starter prayer that helps a new believer to walk uprightly and give glory to GOD and in seeking His will for their life because the disciples asked how should they pray. Forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive our debtors (i.e. those who sin against us) may not always apply. There may be a day where nobody sins against you. Also, what about verse 13? If we pray not to be led into temptation and ask GOD to deliver us from evil and GOD answers that prayer, are we going to keep praying for GOD to deliver us from evil when He has answered our prayer in being delivered from evil? In other words, it does not make any sense to pray for something that GOD will never give to you in this life.
Last edited:
Similar threads
