SinSinSin

[CharismaticLady]

Hi Marks,

When we sin, and don't repent, we loose our salvation. For you see we have to repent to have forgiveness of our sins (Acts). Because Jesus does not wish that any should perish, but that we all should reach repentance (2 Peter). Maybe that is why threads which discuss our salvation become so focused on sin?

I agree with you that "Salvation is through faith in Christ"!!! But that is only part of the story told in Scripture. Here is, as Paul Harvey would say, The Rest of the Story:

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans). He even told us if we confesses Him before men the Son of Man also will confess on our behalf before the angels of God (Luke).

AND, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark) because Baptism saves you (1 Peter)

After we have faith in Him and have become Christians He tells us that He will render to each one according to his works (Romans). Christians also know that we must have good works because He has made it clear that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James).

My two cents worth....Mary

Hi Marymog,

On the surface this has always been true, but for unintentional sins, even in the Old Testament. However, not all sins are venial (a Catholic phrase I only assume you are aware of by your Avatar), but mortal sins were not forgiven in the Old Testament, they were stoned to death. They were not allowed to repent.

Because mortal sins were so damning, Jesus came to take away our carnal sin nature that could make one commit a mortal sin, and also provided a command that we must keep to have our venial sins constantly cleansed namely always forgiving others their venial sins against us, called trespasses, Leviticus 5:15; the only type of sin found in the Lord's Prayer, above Matthew 6:14-15. Therefore, to get on the path to salvation, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we must first recognize that we have within us the capability to commit mortal sins, and to cry out to God to take away these desires to have any hope of eternal life. This is true repentance, and if there is true integrity of heart behind it, Jesus will fill us with His Own Spirit, and all desires to commit a mortal sin is removed, called being born again (and we MUST be born again to be saved). Therefore, if you go against your new born again nature and willfully commit a sin of lawlessness, a mortal sin, Hebrews 6:4-6, you may not have any desire given to you by the Spirit to repent. If you do have a desire to repent, it is because God is going to grant you repentance in order for you to be saved. You are right, they did lose their salvation. But the problem could be, they were never on the path to salvation in the first place, merely attending church with head knowledge of Jesus, but their spirit and soul has never been born again. Again, we MUST be born again! James 1:5-6 pray for the Spirit to lead you on the path to being born again if there is any doubt. God does not desire any to perish, so He will set you on the path to true repentance.

 

[marks]

BTW, I hate your definition of grace. #128 It is not the biblical definition. And I don't like cheap false grace either, what most false doctrines of demons are based on.

Your disagreement is not with me, it's with the Greek scholars who find the meaning of the words in Koine Greek. You can confirm their conclusions through simple word studies. Just looking at every reference to the word, in whatever form it appears in that place. Comparing the usages and contexts. Like that. If you do that study, I think you will reach the same conclusion.

Honestly, what I don't understand about you is that I know you've experienced grace, so why is it you haven't discerned its true definition and confirmed it in Scripture like I did.

As you might remember, there was a period of time, on this forum, not that long ago, that I had embraced your understanding of what grace in the Bible is, that being the transforming power of God put into a believer.

But as I continued to search the Scriptures, I realized that falls short. Yes, there is power when we receive God's grace, but the real power is not a thing - grace - the real power if from Jesus.

God give us grace - His favor - in giving us Jesus, Who transforms us. It's not like God hands you a battery. Its that God lives in you.

So to me, your concept of God's grace seems like the depersonalization of Jesus. Jesus is Who changes me.

You treated him very poorly, indeed.

@BarnyFife , CL is thinking I've treated you poorly, was that your impression? I don't think she understand what I wrote . . . but I do want to make sure that you did, and that I was talking about another post and not you, right?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

But as I continued to search the Scriptures, I realized that falls short. Yes, there is power when we receive God's grace, but the real power is not a thing - grace - the real power if from Jesus.

God give us grace - His favor - in giving us Jesus, Who transforms us. It's not like God hands you a battery. Its that God lives in you.

So to me, your concept of God's grace seems like the depersonalization of Jesus. Jesus is Who changes me.

Silly! This IS my understanding, you just had to receive it by the Spirit.

If you still have the license to sin definition of Behold (I was shocked), which is "unmerited favor," not just "favor," know that is a doctrine of demons.

 

[ChristisGod]

Silly! This IS my understanding, you just had to receive it by the Spirit.

If you still have the license to sin definition of Behold (I was shocked), which is "unmerited favor," not just "favor," know that is a doctrine of demons.

unmerited favor is a doctrine of demons ?

what is a free gift of eternal life if it was earned ?

 

[Waiting on him]

unmerited favor is a doctrine of demons ?

what is a free gift of eternal life if it was earned ?

As if Jesus comes to dwell within to enhance something special within, that was there prior to His quickening.

 

[farouk]

As if Jesus comes to dwell within to enhance something special within, that was there prior to His quickening.

@Waiting on him Prior to the new birth we were truly dead (Ephesians 2...)

 

[Waiting on him]

It’s like putting lipstick on a pig, no matter how thickly it’s slathered on you still have a pig.

 

[farouk]

It’s like putting lipstick on a pig, no matter how thickly it’s slathered on you still have a pig.

@Waiting on him Indeed, this was the title of a book by Victoria Clarke, former Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs (about her experience of dealing with journalists...)

 

[farouk]

@Waiting on him https://www.amazon.com/Lipstick-Pig-Winning-No-Spin-Someone/dp/0743271173

Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs Victoria Clarke

United States Department of Defense with the ID 030414-D-2987S-070 (next).,
User:Slick-o-bot, wikimedia

 

[Marymog]

Should you ever wish to hear my reasons for thinking that our rebirth is forever I'd be happy to share!

In being justified by works, I think this is to men, as God already knows. Since it's God Who justifies us in the first place. Does that sound right to you?

Much love!

Hi Marks,

I don't know what "rebirth is forever" means however I would like to hear what you have to share and an explanation of your theory.

No, it doesn't sound right to me. We have to do works to be justified....just like Scripture says. But MAYBE I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Hi Marymog,

On the surface this has always been true, but for unintentional sins, even in the Old Testament. However, not all sins are venial (a Catholic phrase I only assume you are aware of by your Avatar), but mortal sins were not forgiven in the Old Testament, they were stoned to death. They were not allowed to repent.

Because mortal sins were so damning, Jesus came to take away our carnal sin nature that could make one commit a mortal sin, and also provided a command that we must keep to have our venial sins constantly cleansed namely always forgiving others their venial sins against us, called trespasses, Leviticus 5:15; the only type of sin found in the Lord's Prayer, above Matthew 6:14-15. Therefore, to get on the path to salvation, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we must first recognize that we have within us the capability to commit mortal sins, and to cry out to God to take away these desires to have any hope of eternal life. This is true repentance, and if there is true integrity of heart behind it, Jesus will fill us with His Own Spirit, and all desires to commit a mortal sin is removed, called being born again (and we MUST be born again to be saved). Therefore, if you go against your new born again nature and willfully commit a sin of lawlessness, a mortal sin, Hebrews 6:4-6, you may not have any desire given to you by the Spirit to repent. If you do have a desire to repent, it is because God is going to grant you repentance in order for you to be saved. You are right, they did lose their salvation. But the problem could be, they were never on the path to salvation in the first place, merely attending church with head knowledge of Jesus, but their spirit and soul has never been born again. Again, we MUST be born again! James 1:5-6 pray for the Spirit to lead you on the path to being born again if there is any doubt. God does not desire any to perish, so He will set you on the path to true repentance.

Hi CharismaticLady,

Thank you for your interpretation of Scripture. It is always interesting to read how others interpret Scripture.

It almost sounds as if you believe in predestination?

The reason I say that is because you said "they were never on the path to salvation in the first place" which means they thought they were doing everything to obtain salvation but they deceived themselves or someone mislead them as to how one obtains salvation. They didn't know they were predestined to fail!

You said that God will have to "set you on the path to true repentance". That is confusing to me. How do we know if we are on the path to true repentance if it is up to God and not us? How do we know if we have been chosen by God to be set on the right path?

Curious Mary

 

[marks]

Silly! This IS my understanding, you just had to receive it by the Spirit.

If you still have the license to sin definition of Behold (I was shocked), which is "unmerited favor," not just "favor," know that is a doctrine of demons.

Yet you hold grace to be the power of God in us, unless you've changed your view. I don't. Grace is God's favor towards us, unmerited by anything we do or don't do, in giving to us Jesus Christ, who died and rose again, that we may die and rise in Him. And now He is our life, He is the power in us. Not grace. Grace is the undeserved kindness of God in forgiving our sins, and giving to us Jesus.

Your so-called license to sin is another straw man, nothing more.

Much love!

 

[Marymog]

Sin, Sin, Sin
OP

Gods express sword says...

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever IS born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I Trust Gods Word OVER man's word.

Glory to God,
Taken

Soooooo Taken, do you ever sin????

 

[marks]

Hi Marks,

I don't know what "rebirth is forever" means however I would like to hear what you have to share and an explanation of your theory.

No, it doesn't sound right to me. We have to do works to be justified....just like Scripture says. But MAYBE I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Mary

Hi Mary,

I mean that if we are born of God, then our life comes from God, Who is immortal, eternal. In the flesh life we are born and we die, and having life only in the flesh, that's what's going to happen to us. But when we come to Christ - as many as received Him, believing in His Name, to them God gave the right to become children of God . . . born of God - and are born again, born from above, since our life is not based in corrupted and condemned flesh, we are not subject to the death of the flesh. In the Spirit we life.

Jesus said, If you believe in me, even thought dying, you shall live, and the one who lives and believes in Me shall never die . . . Do you believe this?

I look at passages like Colossians 3:1-3, where those who have been risen with Christ are to set there minds above, because they've died (this is rebirth) and their life is hid with Christ in God. And . . . When Christ appears, they will also appear with Him in Glory.

Scripture cannot be broken, therefore this must be true. Those who have died, who are risen with Christ, here, in this world, will appear with Jesus in glory when Jesus appears.

So, it looks like this rebirth thing won't ever be undone.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, it doesn't sound right to me. We have to do works to be justified....just like Scripture says. But MAYBE I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Mary

My understanding of the justification that our works provide is two each other. James is saying, you can say this 'to me', I can say that 'to you', but who's really caring for others, that is, living the love?

When we do works of faith, then this shows others evidence of our testimony. Works of faith can be counterfeit, but not before God. God knows of course without question our standing with Him, whether we are forgiven, justified, or not.

If we are truly justified our lives will be changed. But to keep the horse before the cart, Justification is from God, not based on our works, sccording to Romans 4 in particular, other places also.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As if Jesus comes to dwell within to enhance something special within, that was there prior to His quickening.

Or as if we add to what Jesus did for us?

 

[CharismaticLady]

unmerited favor is a doctrine of demons ?

what is a free gift of eternal life if it was earned ?

Yes, the "unmerited" is man-made upon wrong assumptions.

You are right, we can't earn salvation, like keeping the Ten Commandments in our own human power. The law was holy, but it was SIN inside our old carnal nature that keeps the commandments from making us righteous, because the carnal nature was working in opposition to the law; it wouldn't be a natural thing to do. The law of Moses was given to us to guard us UNTIL Jesus came to solve the whole problem of SIN. Doing what isn't natural is par with earning as it is work. Jesus made it so obeying isn't work or earning. It is natural.

What Jesus came to do was what the law couldn't do because of the carnal nature. Jesus came to take away the carnal nature and put Himself inside us giving us His power to not desire to sin. We now partake of the divine nature that naturally keeps the laws written on our conscience making it super-sensitized. Doing what comes naturally isn't earning anything. It is like breathing. I don't get a prize for breathing to stay alive. Obeying your own conscience that has been supernaturally changed and empowered as a free gift isn't hard. It is harder to go against your conscience than to do what now comes naturally.

I've noticed that only those who have been born again can relate to what I'm saying as they have also had the life-changing experience of their carnal nature dying and being supernaturally lifted off of us. For me I felt light as a feather. Others have felt that too, but mostly our desires have completely changed 180 degrees immediately.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It almost sounds as if you believe in predestination?

The reason I say that is because you said "they were never on the path to salvation in the first place" which means they thought they were doing everything to obtain salvation but they deceived themselves or someone mislead them as to how one obtains salvation. They didn't know they were predestined to fail!

You said that God will have to "set you on the path to true repentance". That is confusing to me. How do we know if we are on the path to true repentance if it is up to God and not us? How do we know if we have been chosen by God to be set on the right path?

No I do not believe in predestination for Gentiles. Only one nation or race was predestined, but even predestination doesn't ensure eternal life. Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob were predestined to be God's chosen nation. And through God's foreknowledge, God knows who will go on to being God's spiritual nation through His Son, the Messiah, the Christ.

We can't come to Christ unless the father draws us, but God draws everyone as He does not wish any to perish. We all have first time repentance available to us. Some in churches, especially those who were raised going to church, know all about Jesus and believe He is the only way to salvation, but that's as far as it goes, head-knowledge. It is those who may believe they are saved, who aren't. But then there are those who are even worse off. They have repented and experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit, but then for whatever reason, maybe the death of a child or they get crippled and rebel against God, they go their own way and start following the sins devised by Satan against God. It is almost impossible to bring them back, Hebrews 6.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yet you hold grace to be the power of God in us, unless you've changed your view. I don't. Grace is God's favor towards us, unmerited by anything we do or don't do, in giving to us Jesus Christ, who died and rose again, that we may die and rise in Him. And now He is our life, He is the power in us. Not grace. Grace is the undeserved kindness of God in forgiving our sins, and giving to us Jesus.

Your so-called license to sin is another straw man, nothing more.

Much love!

It is not a straw man. There are those who believe unmerited favor is a license to sin. They did it in Jude's day, Jude 1:4, and they are still doing it today. Like Behold.

What you may not be understanding about my view is that grace and Jesus are inseparable, just like Jesus and the Father are inseparable. Jesus is full of grace and truth, John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Grace is the divine power of God as it is the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:2-4; Acts 4:33 (Jewish parallelism) great power/great grace. The Spirit is the difference in our New Covenant, than the Old Covenant of Law. Our covenant of the Spirit is also the covenant of grace. And the Spirit is the power of God. Thus grace is power. So if you actually have Jesus, He MUST be inside you, and that is grace.

 

[BarneyFife]

@BarnyFife , CL is thinking I've treated you poorly, was that your impression? I don't think she understand what I wrote . . . but I do want to make sure that you did, and that I was talking about another post and not you, right?

Much love!

@marks
I didn't take what you said personally, but I understand Sister CL's position because I am quite defensive of my friends, too. If I had been upset with you, my response would have been much different than just turning the straw man accusation back at you. I like to think I basically know your heart by now, and I can tell when you're merely advancing doctrine or making a harmless comment (which seems to me to be the norm for you). CL is very passionate about her understanding of holy living, and she probably assumes that everyone who agrees with her feels just as strongly. Thats natural enough. The position in its most basic form is found in Exodus 34:7: "keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.” In short: There is absolutely no excuse for sin. Least of all the fact that we are born sinners.

I've been thinking about starting a thread about this. The command of Jesus: "Go, and sin no more" has just as much creative power as did "Let there be light." We tend to emphasize either justification or sanctification, one or the other, but seldom both equally. This is very unfortunate. God is the Master Multitasker. If we will but let Him, He will both wash us clean and keep us clean all along the way. The amount of time we spend on discussing the technicalities of this is unfortunate, at best. The more I study, the more I realize how greatly justification and sanctification overlap. I don't believe all of the arguing we do that involves distinct delineation between the two is glorifying God in the slightest. It garners disunity more than most any subject we dwell upon.