SinSinSin

[farouk]

I am assuming that your word not sinless perfection should read NOR.... If that is the case... then YES... I believe the scriptural position is neither legalism nor perfection.

Thanks! changed typo...

 

[Addy]

Thanks! changed typo...

Well then... you've got a deal... LOL.... I think we are in agreement... which is a lovely thing these days...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Perhaps the year 2021 will be the year that the Modern Day Judaizers will be able to sing “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus” Without being Hypocrites...

I honestly don't think you know what a Judaizer is. If you did you'd see that there are no Judaizers here. No one here says you have to keep the law to make yourself righteous. If there's one thing the church understands it's that. The down side of that being, they have gone all the way to other extreme and aren't doing any works of righteousness, all in the name of grace. They don't understand grace if that's what they think grace does in a person.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You have made a very eloquent and intelligent case for your position, but here is the thing.You are wrong and As I read your Post I KNOW you are wrong because so much of your astute reasoning is based on Assumptions—- Assumptions That I have no way to disprove other than you take my word for it.....
You assume that I live an “ unchanged” life.You assume that I attach no importance to that.All I can do is give you the facts and if you think the “ new” BB is NOT a radical change from the “ old” BB you are certifiably Nuts .......let’s look at the Facts.....let’s examine the changes:
Before I turned to God as a Lost Sinner ( The TRUE Repentance required for Salvation) I was an Atheist —- God was a “ Fairy Tale”, a “ crutch” for weak people that could not handle life.I NOW believe God exists and the Bible is True and every thing the Bible says about God is True.Sounds like a change occurred ....
Before I became a Believer, without the Indwelling if the Holy Spirit——- Jesus meant Nothing to me.” IF” He existed at all He was no more than “ a good and wise “ man. I was changed from my thinking that Jesus was “ A” son of God to Believing that Jesus of Nazareth was “ THE” SON of GOD...The God of the Universe .....Lord Of All and My Savior....God in the Flesh. Once again , sounds like a little Change occurred in my Life.
I used to think that those who gave money to any church were the biggest Fools on Earth....give a pittance if caught in a church where the plate was passed around and somebody might see what you do. I have gone from that position of not being a Giver —- a man that gave with a heart of extreme reluctance and bitterness to a man who “ gives Cheerfully” ..... over the years I have “ cheerfully” Given to God Tens Of thousands of Dollars , not to mention the thousands that I have given to Charity....all of this stuff would have been an “ INSANE” Waste Of Money until God , once again—- CHANGED me.....
For Twenty Years , I got drunk every night.....let me repeat that, for it is no exaggeration —- EVERY NIGHT! Since becoming a man of Faith.....you could not FORCE me to drink a beer, or anything else . What happened to that “ Old Desire ?” Sounds like more “ Change” to me?
I used to be a dedicated “ Skirt Chaser”. Enough said. Now I am a Faithful Husband who would never consider cheating on my Wife .....more Change.
You wanna talk “ prayer ?” Lol....you gotta be kidding, right? What a complete waste of time “ that” was. The Holy Spirit That indwelled me after I became a Believer in Jesus took me from a man with absolutely NO prayer life to a man who prays the Bible-Way...... I pray” Without Ceasing”. From the time I arise in the morning to the time I go to bed at night.A lot of things can be “ faked” in the life of a “ Christian”—— not that one. In fact, I could never understand those who thought it necessary to set aside “time to pray.” Why do that if you are “ praying without ceasing”. I don’t know. I “ DO” know this—- it takes a man “ Changed “ by the Holy Spirit to become a man who “ prays without ceasing”.Yes, once again , just another Department of my life that has undergone “ Change”
Many other changes have taken place in my Life that can’t be seen by Self Righteous “ Fruit Inspectors” —- some of these are MUCH more important than outward changes that can be seen by the World. Did you know that DESPITE all the Rules......all the Commandments ....all the Warnings....all the threats that God put forth in the Old Testament, the Main Thing That God desired above all else and all along , was this—— a “ Contrite Heart” . God cannot deal with any man who lacks that type of heart......a Proud Heart That does not recognize and admit that without the “ Turning to God “ with Faith in Jesus Christ they are hopeless , helpless Sinners headed towards a Hell That is well- deserved—— THAT Proud Heart will NEVER be Receptive to the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4 That Saves.That Hard, Proud Heart That MUST be CHANGED from the SIN of Self- Righteousness , saying “ I am Good Enough” to make it to Heaven and I am NOT going to do it God’s Way ( Faith in Jesus) , I will do things MY WAY, by conjuring up a Performance Of Law-Keeping that will Force God to give me what I have worked so hard for! PLUS.....all those times I “ screwed up?” Well, I had the Luck to REPENT Of ALL Of Those Sins, so I got “ That” going for me too!” I used to think like that at times.....no more.....now I have one of those “ Contrite Hearts”.......Again.God Changed me.
Anything else you demand on hearing? They most important things to God are a heart that believes in Love, Kindness, Forgiveness , Mercy and Justice .....I was formerly a man who was not concerned about ANY of those things .....I was a Sinful, selfish man who just was content to go through life grabbing at anything that gave me pleasure .....I want what I want and I want it now—- let the chips fall where they may.....
I am not like that Anymore.....God Changed me.....you will just have to take my Word ....God bless

All this that was written by you is very nice. I’m happy that your life was changed for the better. I could share a similar testimony as well.

But does our positive testimonies prove we are not in error in biblical doctrine?

No it does not.

It’s interesting that you accuse people of assumptions in biblical doctrine when your whole stance on Hebrews 10:26-27 is pure assumption.

There is no assumption in what scripture are saying in these passages:

Romans 11:22
Continue or be cut off

Matthew 7:14
Few find the narrow way

Hebrews 10:26-27
The willful sinner, after conversion, will be devoured by fire

1 Peter 4:18
The righteousness will scarcely be saved

2 Peter 2:20
Those who return to the pollutions of the world will be worse off than BEFORE they knew the gospel

Hebrews 6:4-6
Those who received the Holy Spirit through obedience to Christ (Acts of the Apostles 5:32) will not be able to return if they fall away

Colossians 1:21-
Those who are reconciled will fail to be presented holy, or unreproveabke, or blameless if they get moved away from the faith

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I honestly don't think you know what a Judaizer is. If you did you'd see that there are no Judaizers here. No one here says you have to keep the law to make yourself righteous. If there's one thing the church understands it's that. The down side of that being, they have gone all the way to other extreme and aren't doing any works of righteousness, all in the name of grace. They don't understand grace if that's what they think grace does in a person.

Once again....you are simply wrong....you dint know me and you dint know what you are talking about as you “ accuse the Brethren” ..
If I give thousands and thousands of dollars to the poor ( I am by no means wealthy ) , wouldn’t “that” be considered a” work of righteousness ?”
Trying to spread the Gospel .....wouldn’t “ that” be an “ act of righteousness?
It was said of Jesus —- “ He went about doing good”. I do that constantly . Simple, consistent , acts of Kindness shown throughout every day . Complimenting people unaccustomed to compliments, bragging about people whenever given the excuse, refusing to revels Secrets, refusal to engage in Dirty and/ or Racist Jokes , resisting the urge to engage in gossip, etc......
I don’t know what your Standard Of “ doing Works Of Righteousness “ is......frankly , I don’t give a Rat’s Patootie.....God is very pleased with the way that I conduct my life...
Here’s a tip for you and the way you “ conduct” YOUR life —— stop making Accusations , stop being an “ Accuser Of the Brethren” when you are just showing blatant ignorance as a man who constantly and consistently blathers on about stuff he knows NOTHING about.It destroys what LITTLE Credibility that you have.Have a Happy New Year!

 

[BarneyFife]

That MUST be CHANGED from the SIN of Self- Righteousness , saying “ I am Good Enough” to make it to Heaven and I am NOT going to do it God’s Way ( Faith in Jesus) , I will do things MY WAY, by conjuring up a Performance Of Law-Keeping that will Force God to give me what I have worked so hard for! PLUS.....all those times I “ screwed up?” Well, I had the Luck to REPENT Of ALL Of Those Sins, so I got “ That” going for me too!”

A straw man among straw men. And hypocrisy to boot.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I honestly don't think you know what a Judaizer is. If you did you'd see that there are no Judaizers here. No one here says you have to keep the law to make yourself righteous. If there's one thing the church understands it's that. The down side of that being, they have gone all the way to other extreme and aren't doing any works of righteousness, all in the name of grace. They don't understand grace if that's what they think grace does in a person.

With apologies to Jeff Foxworthy for stealing his Bit—————-


If you can’t sing “ Nothing But The Blood” in regard to Salvation and MEAN it in your Heart —- you just “ might” be a Judaizer...........

 

[BarneyFife]

Perhaps the year 2021 will be the year that the Modern Day Judaizers will be able to sing “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus” Without being Hypocrites.....we’ll see, won’t we ?

Oh I love that song!!!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

A straw man among straw men. And hypocrisy to boot.

And to you, kind sir......I must say...” Pffftttt!” .......have a great New Year Of continued Self Righteousness !

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Oh I love that song!!!

God loves that song also
He HATES it when hypocrites sing it and never actually believe the words to it .....many here in these Forums would please God immensely if they tore that song ( and many others) from their Hymnals...

 

[BarneyFife]

If I give thousands and thousands of dollars to the poor

Congratulations. You do part of what God asks. Testifying to giving thousands of dollars and then calling others "self-righteous" is a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not under the law (Romans 6:14) are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as believers.

What this means is that there is no more condemnation for us coming from the law as it is written on tablets of stone...

Nevertheless we, as believers, are governed by the law (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6) in that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5); which is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

If I were to violate some law of conduct found in the word of the Lord or elsewhere, because my sins are covered by the blood of Jesus there would be no condemnation for me.

Nevertheless the blood of Jesus does not only cover over my sin...it also sanctifies my soul.

The Holy Spirit is able to come and dwell within me because I am forgiven through Christ's blood.

And because He dwells within me, I bear the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

"against such there is no law"...

This means that in my everyday behaviour, if I am born again of the Holy Spirit, I will not be doing anything that is in violation of the law of the Lord.

If I were to do so, then it is covered by the blood (providing it is not "willful"...this ought to produce in the one who has received the knowledge of the truth a certain amount of the fear of the LORD).

But because I have redemption through the blood of Jesus; and this redemption is not only justification but it is also sanctification...I am not very likely to commit sins that would even be covered by the blood if I committed them.

And I certainly am not going to commit sins that are willfully in defiance of the Lord's grace in my life...for that would be a denial of the grace of God and would be an insult to the Spirit of grace....to take the grace of God for granted and to sin willfully is something that you can get away with until you come to the knowledge of the truth. But once you do, you cannot go back to willfully sinning against the Lord as you may have done before you came to understand the condemnation that might come upon you if you were to insult the Spirit of grace in such a fashion.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This verse, while it may be hyperbole, is given as exaggeration to make a point...and the point is that the life of a man will be radically changed the moment he comes to faith in Jesus Christ...he cannot go back to the old ways at any time.

If he did, it would be the evidence that he was never born of God or that he is no longer born of God (the doctrine of OSAS is not the point of discussion here).

The moment you become able to sin, it means that you are not abiding in the life of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So, since you are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law; and sin is not imputed where there is no law (where there is no law there is no transgression; and sin is the transgression of the law); therefore before the Lord you cannot sin even if you were to sin; and this is in the sense of justification.

But these verses also apply in regard to sanctification; and they indicate that there is a heart difference in the life of one who has come to the faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. The one who has faith in Jesus cannot sin therefore in the practical sense as well as in the positional sense; and this becomes more of a reality as time passes in the life of the believer.

What I am saying is that you cannot sin because your relationship to the law has changed; and this is in the positional sense: but you also cannot sin because of being filled with the Holy Spirit; and this is in the practical sense.

That is, you cannot willfully sin against the Father as a man who is born of God.

If you did, it would be evidence that you were never born of God are that you are not born of God any longer.

You cannot willfully sin against God; that is, you cannot act in utter defiance of God's will for your life.

Because if you are indeed born again of the Holy Spirit, you have fallen in love with Jesus Christ (see Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5) and therefore you cannot defy Him in anything; because you love Him too much to be able to ever defy Him.

Falling into temptation is one thing; utterly defying the grace of God is another.

If anyone, knowing that they are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law, decides to take advantage of that and "sin up a storm", they are insulting the Spirit of grace and are counting the blood of Jesus which sanctified them as common.

I just goes to show that genuine faith is an attitude of contriteness of heart; in which a man will never defy the goodness and grace of God by willfully sinning against the Lord if given the opportunity. There is a holy fear in the lives of those who are truly redeemed; a fear that prevents them from crossing the line over into any kind of willful sin.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you can’t sing “ Nothing But The Blood” in regard to Salvation and MEAN it in your Heart —- you just “ might” be a Judaizer...........

What we say: "Faith upholds the law" (Romans 3:31)

What you hear: "The law upholds faith"

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God loves that song also
He HATES it when hypocrites sing it and never actually believe the words to it .....

You just think they don't believe it. And that's because you're literally incapable of hearing anything outside of the beliefs you have been trained to believe. It's a waste of time to try to make you see anything outside of what you already believe. Most Christians are this way.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Once again....you are simply wrong....you dint know me and you dint know what you are talking about as you “ accuse the Brethren” ..
If I give thousands and thousands of dollars to the poor ( I am by no means wealthy ) , wouldn’t “that” be considered a” work of righteousness ?”
Trying to spread the Gospel .....wouldn’t “ that” be an “ act of righteousness?
It was said of Jesus —- “ He went about doing good”. I do that constantly . Simple, consistent , acts of Kindness shown throughout every day . Complimenting people unaccustomed to compliments, bragging about people whenever given the excuse, refusing to revels Secrets, refusal to engage in Dirty and/ or Racist Jokes , resisting the urge to engage in gossip, etc......
I don’t know what your Standard Of “ doing Works Of Righteousness “ is......frankly , I don’t give a Rat’s Patootie.....God is very pleased with the way that I conduct my life...
Here’s a tip for you and the way you “ conduct” YOUR life —— stop making Accusations , stop being an “ Accuser Of the Brethren” when you are just showing blatant ignorance as a man who constantly and consistently blathers on about stuff he knows NOTHING about.It destroys what LITTLE Credibility that you have.Have a Happy New Year!

.....But then you come into a Christian forum and trash everyone who doesn't buy into your 'everything is lawful, sin all you want' theology. But lots of love and kisses for those who applaud your theology. I mean, let's be honest here. You aren't very charitable towards those you've falsely accused and judged as being self righteous. I'm just going by what you yourself told us. You yourself said you willfully sin. Don't get upset over what someone thinks about you based on what you yourself said about yourself.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

What we say: "Faith upholds the law" (Romans 3:31)

What you hear: "The law upholds faith"

No.....what I hear is what the entire world has been able to hear—- in this Forum and many like it....”Why Of COURSE Jesus Saves! ( psstt.... But once ya know “ that” , ya gotta repent of all of your sins before you die, or you will go to Hell ! )
Correct me if I am wrong, justbyfaithplusluckyrepentance .....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

What we say: "Faith upholds the law" (Romans 3:31)

What you hear: "The law upholds faith"

Who cares what I “ hear?”....The Important Thing is what I “ read”...... read from the Bible, that is..

Here is what I read——-Gal5:4. “ Christ has become NOTHING to you who are trying to earn God’s Favor by keeping the Law; you have Fallen from Grace”

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No.....what I hear is what the entire world has been able to hear—- in this Forum and many like it....”Why Of COURSE Jesus Saves! ( psstt.... But once ya know “ that” , ya gotta repent of all of your sins before you die, or you will go to Hell ! )
Correct me if I am wrong, justbyfaithplusluckyrepentance .....

You really need to be a Bible reader. Shut Andrew Farley off and read the Bible for yourself. It says the person who continues in his sin is not born again. What do you not understand about that? It has nothing to do with a person repenting of all their sins so they can be saved as if salvation is by works. What you're not getting is there is no such thing as a born again person who continues in his old life of sin. You have to reject this exception that you have been taught to believe exists that there are born again people who are unchanged and unconverted in spirit. The truly born again person is a different person. If you're not different you aren't born again. That's not a works gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Who cares what I “ hear?”....The Important Thing is what I “ read”...... read from the Bible, that is..

Here is what I read——-Gal5:4. “ Christ has become NOTHING to you who are trying to earn God’s Favor by keeping the Law; you have Fallen from Grace”

Time to start listening. You don't keep the law to earn God's favor. You 'keep' the law because you have God's favor. Understand? Yes, or no?

If your 'faith' is not upholding the law then you do not have God's favor in salvation. Your unchanged, lawless, purposely sinning life shows you do not have the favor of God in salvation.

The Galatians were keeping the law in order to be justified. That has nothing to do with a person upholding the law because they are already justified by faith in Christ. See the difference? Yes, or no?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

That is, you cannot willfully sin against the Father as a man who is born of God.

Of course you can.....you “ Shouldn’t —— but you “can”....
What happens as a result ? God takes His Child , who has “ Stumbled” ( as James says) and takes him to His Wood- Shed.......That is the place where God Blisters the Behinds of His errant Children’....let's see how quickly a “ willfully sinning “ Child Of God abandons His “ Willful Sins” when God gets done with Him.....you think that the same God that created the Universe is ignorant when it comes to using His Chastisements to give His Precious Children “ Attitude Adjustments?” .........especially when these disciplinary actions are for the Errant Child’s Own Good ? Get real.