SinSinSin

[Ferris Bueller]

You've taken a passage of some, and applied to all, and that is a mistake.

It applies to whom it applies.

And you push the Law as the measure of righteousness......

Romans 8:3-4
He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us

......instead you should be pointing people to Jesus Himself. As we live unto Him, He should be our central focus.

We all know it is only through faith in Jesus that we can uphold the righteous standard of the law (and more). Faith is the new way to keep the commands of God, not get rid of them as the church thinks.

You assume people deny God's power and speak to them as if that were true.

I don't assume anything. When viewed as a whole everyone can see the church denies the power they profess to have.

To what benefit is that? It's not reality.

It is a reality. All you have to do is look. And it benefits people to open their eyes with Bible truth and show them they aren't really saved. They just think they are. Thanks in large part to the once saved always saved teachings that the church focuses on that makes unsaved people think they are saved and ready to be judged by Jesus. You have to get saved first before you can take comfort out of a once saved always saved teaching.

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't justify that besetting sin because of my medicine any more...as a matter of fact, because of my exchange with you back then, I stopped self-justifying and took responsibility for my sin...and now I have the victory over it.

As for my medication, I do believe that the Lord appeared to me in a vision and told me to take it; for it is a necessity in my life. Even members of the body of Christ have advised me that it is expedient for me to take my medicine.

And also, every time that I have tried to stop taking it, I have had "breaks" in which I behaved erratically end ended up in mental institutions. I have been free of that now for at least three years; and I am thankful to the Lord that He showed me that my medicine is a necessity in my life. I see it as a kind of injection for humility. Because the fact that I have to take it is indeed humbling to my soul.



Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:7-11)



The key word there is "willfully"...and it is true that I do not commit willful sins any more. So I know where I stand...securely in the palm of Jesus' hand.

so you listen to man when it suits you and listen to God when it suits you to summarize the above posts in this thread. it appears you choose which one depending upon your sin choices. shall you obey man or God ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Resting in the Gospel is not signified by resisting and struggling against sin. I know . . . its what we've believed for so many years! But the truth is this. When you trust Jesus for your life, for the next moment, for everything, there isn't that struggle. You do what is good, because it's who you are. When you are struggling, you are not trusting Him.

The struggling and fighting, it shows you still look at life the old way.

Hebrews 12:3-4
3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Do you think I just pulled that phrase 'struggle with sin' out of my imagination? No, it comes right from scripture, and as we can see, it does not mean that you are not trusting God. It means you ARE trusting God, resisting the temptation to sin and instead turning to God in patience and long suffering and endurance (the fruit of the Spirit), just as Jesus, our example, did.

I don't know how Free Gracer's are having a different experience with sin than Jesus had, except that it's clear to me they are merely parroting what a teacher has told them to say about it and don't actually have any experience of their own as to what the genuine Christian's life is like. I have especially noticed this in BB's posts and have been wanting to say something about it. He just doesn't share a realistic picture of what living in Christ really looks like. Christianity has become a matter of talk and not a matter of experience. And the church takes false comfort that their (supposedly) accurate talking points about the gospel and life in Christ are what puts them at peace with God and ensures they are ready to meet Jesus at the resurrection.

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't assume anything. When viewed as a whole everyone can see the church denies the power they profess to have.


It is a reality. All you have to do is look. And it benefits people to open their eyes with Bible truth and show them they aren't really saved. They just think they are. Thanks in large part to the once saved always saved teachings that the church focuses on that makes unsaved people think they are saved and ready to be judged by Jesus. You have to get saved first before you can take comfort out of a once saved always saved teaching.

Agree there is an epidemic of "cheap grace", easy believism in the church as a whole and they don't have a clue about counting the cost of being a disciple of Jesus and His promises to suffer for His kingdom and the world hating you as it hates Him because of sin, righteousness and the judgment to come. They want their cake in eat it too. The benefits of heaven while enjoying all the pleasures and indulgences of the flesh. Jesus promised them if they persecuted Me they will persecute you. The church doesn't stand for Christ they blend in with the world.

BTW- Jesus turned away many and numerous followers of His stopped because of His teachings were hard, not easy.

You are 100% correct.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

.....you claim you have “ No Teacher”—- Man, does it show !

Boy the sign of the times are showing indeed. You are like the people whom Jeremiah was prophesying against. They likewise condemned Jeremiah in favor of their false prophets:

Jeremiah 18:18

Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.

You really need to calm down and search the scriptures wether or not the things I say are so.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Get wrapped up in the grace that BB teaches, and discover the wonderful freedom from this fixation on sin and law.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18) is not a fixation on sin and law.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Show me the person who believed and was born again, and now does not believe, and has died again. You cannot actually.

Galatians 5:2-4
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Did these Galatians not really believe and were never really saved? Or did they stop believing and lost their salvation? What does it matter? They're accursed and going to hell for their unbelief! You're fixated on the wrong thing. What good is it to tell someone once saved always saved is true? It's more important to tell them to make sure they're saved in the first place.

You build people up into people who won't make it through the judgment. Because they don't know they're lost. And so you will have no reward for your labor in the building of God. I get right to the point and encourage people to test themselves to make sure they're in the faith the way the Bible says to do that. And so if they see they're not saved they can correct that and be saved, and I will receive reward for my labor. You? You'll have nothing because you comfort fake believers in their unbelief with a meaningless once saved always saved theology that doesn't do anything to remedy their lost state and actually makes them comfortable in that lost state. You've deceived them into thinking they are saved. You're afraid to lay down the Biblical challenge to them to make their calling and election sure by examining their lives. Instead, you have them examining their once saved always saved theology to confirm they are really saved. That's a joke. That doesn't show anybody to be saved. Only the changed life does that.

 

[justbyfaith]

so you listen to man when it suits you and listen to God when it suits you to summarize the above posts in this thread. it appears you choose which one depending upon your sin choices. shall you obey man or God ?

And I don't obey God when it suits me?

Where do you get that from my posts?

What "sin choices" are you talking about?

At the times that I was advised to take my medicine by members of the body of Christ, I was more inclined not to take it. But I would read Proverbs 29:1 and it would be the clincher that would tell me that I needed to heed the reproof of those who advised me to take my medicine.

So, those who told me to take it were not telling my "what my itching ears wanted to hear." They were telling me the opposite; and based on a principle of wisdom I obeyed the advice of those who cared enough to tell me that the medicine is a necessity in my life.

 

[BarneyFife]

However, the third branch is the branch that does not live in Christ. You may assume that this refers to someone who was born again, but I don't make that same assumption.

So, people who were never born again are branches of the Vine which is Christ?

Jesus taught the same solemn truth about losing eternal life in the parable of the sower. In explaining the seed which fell among the thorns and the rocks, Jesus said, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:12, 13.

There are several things to note about this parable. First, only one class will finally be saved - the ones who brought forth much fruit. The groups represented by the wayside and rocks will not be saved. In verse 12, the wayside hearers did not have a chance to "believe and be saved," but in the next verse the stony ground hearers do "for a while believe." What kind of "believing" is this? According to verse 12, it is the kind that saves. So the ones who believed for a while were saved for a while, but in time of temptation they fell away. Eventually, of course, they were lost along with all the others, except the fruit-bearers. Here is an unequivocal teaching of our Lord that people can have a saving faith for a while, and yet lose it and be lost.

 

[marks]

So, people who were never born again are branches of the Vine which is Christ?

Jesus taught the same solemn truth about losing eternal life in the parable of the sower. In explaining the seed which fell among the thorns and the rocks, Jesus said, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:12, 13.

There are several things to note about this parable. First, only one class will finally be saved - the ones who brought forth much fruit. The groups represented by the wayside and rocks will not be saved. In verse 12, the wayside hearers did not have a chance to "believe and be saved," but in the next verse the stony ground hearers do "for a while believe." What kind of "believing" is this? According to verse 12, it is the kind that saves. So the ones who believed for a while were saved for a while, but in time of temptation they fell away. Eventually, of course, they were lost along with all the others, except the fruit-bearers. Here is an unequivocal teaching of our Lord that people can have a saving faith for a while, and yet lose it and be lost.

Yet have no root.

As I read this parable, only the fourth soil recieved the word unto life.

What kind of believing is this? Happy over a good message, really like the idea of it, but - no root - doesn't penetrate, take hold, lead to rebirth.

That's the fourth soil.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Galatians 5:2-4
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Did these Galatians not really believe and were never really saved? Or did they stop believing and lost their salvation? What does it matter? They're accursed and going to hell for their unbelief! You're fixated on the wrong thing. What good is it to tell someone once saved always saved is true? It's more important to tell them to make sure they're saved in the first place.

Listen to Paul's words here.

If you return to the Law, you have left Grace. You can have Law, or you can have Grace. But if you choose Law, you have to be perfect in all of it. Not your "short list" missing the ceremonial Law, or some such like that.

I'm fixated on the wrong thing, am I? I'm fixated on Jesus Christ, and His work, and His faith, and His sanctification, and His righteousness.

And besides . . . in this passage you've quoted . . . where did it say they were hellbound? Or are you just adding that in because it puts some fire in your message?

What does it say? You've fallen from Grace. Become alienated from Christ. Are you thinking this mean that God's promise, I will NEVER leave you, nor forsake, stops being true? God forbid!! I'll take God's clear Word over you additions to the passage any day!

It's this focus on "works of Law", as if that's what gives you "feelings of assurance" of salvation, that is what "falling from grace" is. You stop looking to Jesus, and start looking to what you do, or, more to the point, your own opinions of yourself.

We are not saved or kept saved by "feeling saved", because we've created some measure for ourself which we find we "live up to".

I agree with you completely, the most important thing is to make certain we know our Creator. But you won't find that in works of Law. You can have a great relationship with someone else's covenant, but the Law is only the barest starting point in experiencing, possessing, eternal life with our Heavenly Father.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18) is not a fixation on sin and law.

That's it! That's our Law. Trust Jesus, and love others.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Yet have no root.

As I read this parable, only the fourth soil recieved the word unto life.

What kind of believing is this? Happy over a good message, really like the idea of it, but - no root - doesn't penetrate, take hold, lead to rebirth.

That's the fourth soil.

Much love!

If you won't acknowledge such clear language as "for a while believe"................?

 

[marks]

I agree that we should be spending our time encouraging each other in good works. Settling the matter about once saved always saved is not what Jesus will be looking for at the judgment. He will be looking at the life we lived, not our doctrine. Some people think believing in once saved always saved is what prepares them for the coming judgment.

What I'm talking about here is this.

When we make the choice to believe in Jesus, to trust in Him, to receive Him to ourselves, He responds with giving us life. We were not technically alive before this. We were sin-dead corrupt creations, which were destined for the fire.

God makes us alive, alive unto Him. This is the heart of the Gospel. Jesus did not die first and foremost to change our behavior. He died to make alive.

And being alive unto God, now, we can continue on in the old way, relating to God on the basis of Law, and sin, or we can live an entirely new way, relating to God on the basis of being alive in Christ.

And the Bible teaches us that Law provokes sin, increases sin, and this was part of it's purpose. God gave the Law to produce sin in man. Giving a standard of righteousness to be obeyed incites the flesh, which is always hostile to God, and His Law.

So leaving that behind, when we come into Christ, we are not under Law, but under Grace, and therefore, Law is not there stirring up sin within in us.

But if you go back to a Law based relationship with God, you're asking for trouble. Law stirs up sin.

Living in Grace, God's complete forgiveness, this frees you from the motions of sin in your members, when are by the Law. So then the Law Is Not there stirring up sin.

And the strangest thing happens! Those who find this realize that sin totally loses it's power, as we are free and clear to live unto God.

Now, we choose what to believe, and I think Jesus may well have something to say to any of us. God will judge our works. That judgment of works will be one thing for those who are His spirit children, but something else entirely for those who are not.

"settling the matter of once saved always saved"

Settle the matter that you are God's child, that you trust in Him. Become intimate with Him, by spending time with Him, and by not fighting against your circumstances, rather looking for His hand within them. Trusting Him with everything you have, and are, and ever hope to be.

And rest in His promise. For He has promised, I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.

You seem to find this idea that God, having recreated us His Own born spirit children, having made us one with Himself, you seem to have this difficulty believing He won't some day throw you away, but He's not like that. It's not why He made us to begin with.

God didn't not bring us into this world so that we could somehow prove to Him that we are good enough. He's the One Who is making us good enough, and then the glory is His.

Two commandments He gave to us. Trust Jesus, and Love others.

You know, it's like in Romans 5. What Jesus did is NOT the counterpart to what Adam did. What Jesus did is so much greater.

And what Jesus did in recreating us is so much greater than what is described in the Law. One is not the same as the other, Jesus' righteousness is way beyond the righteousness by Law, which, of course, Paul counts to be manure.

The Law points you to Jesus. And Jesus points you to Himself. Come to me, all who are weary and heavily burdened. Rest is what He promises. Sweet sweet rest, an end to the struggle, but be it to you according to your faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is it not assumed that established members on this board have already been pointed to Jesus?

It seems that now we must point to sound doctrine according to the word of God in order to be in Jesus according to truth:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Not just for life, but for practice.

By faith we have been saved, and it's by that same faith we have access into the grace in which we stand.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you won't acknowledge such clear language as "for a while believe"................?

Are there not different kinds of believing? Do not the demons believe and shudder? This isn't not acknowledging the words of Scripture, but looking at the variations in interpretation, and looking at other passages for harmony. And this is what I find, different believing, and not all is the same, or with the same results.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Willful sin shatters the relationship by which eternal life is obtained.

All sin is willful. Behold! The Lamb of God Who bears away the sin of the world! This is the Gospel. In death and resurrection we are free from the power of sin, free from the guilt of sin, and free from the stain of sin. Amazing Grace!

Now nothing can separate us from God's love, the One Who has promised, I will NEVER leave you, nor forsake you!

Either my relationship with God is based on What Jesus Did, or What I Do. One is Grace, the other is Fallen from Grace.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

What I'm talking about here is this.

When we make the choice to believe in Jesus, to trust in Him, to receive Him to ourselves, He responds with giving us life. We were not technically alive before this. We were sin-dead corrupt creations, which were destined for the fire.

God makes us alive, alive unto Him. This is the heart of the Gospel. Jesus did not die first and foremost to change our behavior. He died to make alive.

And being alive unto God, now, we can continue on in the old way, relating to God on the basis of Law, and sin, or we can live an entirely new way, relating to God on the basis of being alive in Christ.

And the Bible teaches us that Law provokes sin, increases sin, and this was part of it's purpose. God gave the Law to produce sin in man. Giving a standard of righteousness to be obeyed incites the flesh, which is always hostile to God, and His Law.

So leaving that behind, when we come into Christ, we are not under Law, but under Grace, and therefore, Law is not there stirring up sin within in us.

But if you go back to a Law based relationship with God, you're asking for trouble. Law stirs up sin.

Living in Grace, God's complete forgiveness, this frees you from the motions of sin in your members, when are by the Law. So then the Law Is Not there stirring up sin.

And the strangest thing happens! Those who find this realize that sin totally loses it's power, as we are free and clear to live unto God.

Now, we choose what to believe, and I think Jesus may well have something to say to any of us. God will judge our works. That judgment of works will be one thing for those who are His spirit children, but something else entirely for those who are not.

"settling the matter of once saved always saved"

Settle the matter that you are God's child, that you trust in Him. Become intimate with Him, by spending time with Him, and by not fighting against your circumstances, rather looking for His hand within them. Trusting Him with everything you have, and are, and ever hope to be.

And rest in His promise. For He has promised, I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.

You seem to find this idea that God, having recreated us His Own born spirit children, having made us one with Himself, you seem to have this difficulty believing He won't some day throw you away, but He's not like that. It's not why He made us to begin with.

God didn't not bring us into this world so that we could somehow prove to Him that we are good enough. He's the One Who is making us good enough, and then the glory is His.

Two commandments He gave to us. Trust Jesus, and Love others.

You know, it's like in Romans 5. What Jesus did is NOT the counterpart to what Adam did. What Jesus did is so much greater.

And what Jesus did in recreating us is so much greater than what is described in the Law. One is not the same as the other, Jesus' righteousness is way beyond the righteousness by Law, which, of course, Paul counts to be manure.

The Law points you to Jesus. And Jesus points you to Himself. Come to me, all who are weary and heavily burdened. Rest is what He promises. Sweet sweet rest, an end to the struggle, but be it to you according to your faith.

Much love!

All the flowery language in the world won't refute the fact that the Gospel saves us from sin--not good works.

 

[marks]

All the flowery language in the world won't refute the fact that the Gospel saves us from sin--not good works.

We are completely agreed on this I think!

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Are there not different kinds of believing? Do not the demons believe and shudder? This isn't not acknowledging the words of Scripture, but looking at the variations in interpretation, and looking at other passages for harmony. And this is what I find, different believing, and not all is the same, or with the same results.

Much love!

I guess Jesus was talking about demon-like belief. Rationalization is not the key to interpreting Scripture.