So Joseph married Mary but didn’t have sex?

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Lambano

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Michal’s case involves an impossible state, which is why no reader infers a reversal; the heos clause simply marks the boundary.
While I think your assessment of the author's own assumptions about the state of the dead is quite reasonable (the Jewish people would not develop the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead until sometime after the Babylonian exile), it is not stated explicitly.

What unstated assumptions might Matthew have about a married couple's relationship? Remember, you cannot preclude any such assumptions because they are not explicitly stated.
 

Grailhunter

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I agree that ginosko ("knew") is a standard idiom for sexual relations—Matthew is using it that way. But heos (“until”) does not, in Koine Greek or in Scripture, inherently imply that the opposite happened afterward. Scripture itself disproves that assumption. For example, 2 Samuel 6:23 says, “Michal had no children until the day of her death.” No one concludes she began bearing children after she died. In such cases, heos marks a boundary, not a change of state.

Matthew 1:25 works the same way: “but he did not know Her until She had given birth to a Son.” Matthew is not describing Joseph and Mary’s later marital life. He is reinforcing what he has just narrated in 1:20-24 — the fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 through the virginal conception by the Holy Spirit. Verse 25 simply secures the point: Joseph had no sexual involvement that could cast doubt on the divine origin of Jesus or the virginity of Mary at His birth.

Matthew makes no claim whatsoever—positive or negative—about what happened after the nativity. His concern is theological, not biographical. The verse establishes the Virgin Birth; it does not address post‑birth relations. Reading it as a statement about later intercourse imports a conclusion the text never makes.

Yea the scriptures does not imply in any way a virgin birth.
 
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Moonwood

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While I think your assessment of the author's own assumptions about the state of the dead is quite reasonable (the Jewish people would not develop the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead until sometime after the Babylonian exile), it is not stated explicitly.

What unstated assumptions might Matthew have about a married couple's relationship? Remember, you cannot preclude any such assumptions because they are not explicitly stated.

The Michal example involves an impossible state, which is why no reader infers a reversal; the heos clause simply marks the boundary. Matthew 1:25 is different: intercourse after birth is possible, but Matthew is not addressing that topic. His focus is Jesus’s origin and Joseph’s role, and heos marks the period where the paternity issue is relevant. Unstated assumptions about “normal marriage patterns” cannot override the narrative purpose or supply meaning the Greek text does not provide. Silence in the text is not a signal; it is simply silence because Matthew is not talking about that.
 

Moonwood

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How do you know it's impossible?

Understanding the author's assumptions is an essential reading skill in any language.

I know because the author is describing a woman who is dead. Childbearing after death is not an “unstated assumption”; it is a biological impossibility. That is why no reader infers a reversal in 2 Samuel 6:23. Matthew 1:25 is different: intercourse after birth is possible, but Matthew is not addressing that topic. His focus is Jesus’s origin and Joseph’s role, and heos marks the period where the paternity issue is relevant. Understanding an author’s assumptions is indeed part of reading, but those assumptions must arise from the narrative’s purpose and the constraints of the text. “Normal marriage patterns” are sociological generalizations, not authorial intent, and they cannot override the narrative focus or supply meaning the Greek text does not provide. Treating narrative silence as a signal is not exegesis; it is importing a conclusion from outside the text.
 

Moonwood

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Yea the scriptures does not imply in any way a virgin birth.

The claim that “Scripture does not imply a virgin birth” is simply incorrect. Matthew states it outright:
  • 1:20 — “That which is conceived in Her is of the Holy Spirit.”
  • 1:23 — “Behold, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son…”
My point about heos is about post‑nativity relations, not the virginal conception itself. Matthew’s narrative is built around the virgin birth — that’s why he quotes Isaiah 7:14. Verse 25 protects that claim by marking a boundary, not by implying a later change of state.
 

David in NJ

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The claim that “Scripture does not imply a virgin birth” is simply incorrect. Matthew states it outright:
  • 1:20 — “That which is conceived in Her is of the Holy Spirit.”
  • 1:23 — “Behold, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son…”
My point about heos is about post‑nativity relations, not the virginal conception itself. Matthew’s narrative is built around the virgin birth — that’s why he quotes Isaiah 7:14. Verse 25 protects that claim by marking a boundary, not by implying a later change of state.
Why would you be offended that Mary had children AFTER the birth of Jesus???
 

Grailhunter

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The claim that “Scripture does not imply a virgin birth” is simply incorrect. Matthew states it outright:
  • 1:20 — “That which is conceived in Her is of the Holy Spirit.”
  • 1:23 — “Behold, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son…”
My point about heos is about post‑nativity relations, not the virginal conception itself. Matthew’s narrative is built around the virgin birth — that’s why he quotes Isaiah 7:14. Verse 25 protects that claim by marking a boundary, not by implying a later change of state.

Of course what was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit......as in regard to Yahweh's only begotten Son,
Begotten mean sexual reproduction.

And you seem like a knowledgeable person so read Isaiah chapter 7 and tell me if that is a story about testing the faith of a king or a Son that will be crucified. It is the epidemy of cherry picking plucking verse 7:14 out of context from a pretty long story. The virgin in question is Isaiah's wife and it is clear that Isaiah had sex with her and virgin in Hebrew can mean a lady that has not had a baby yet.
 

Moonwood

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Of course what was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit......as in regard to Yahweh's only begotten Son,
Begotten mean sexual reproduction.

And you seem like a knowledgeable person so read Isaiah chapter 7 and tell me if that is a story about testing the faith of a king or a Son that will be crucified. It is the epidemy of cherry picking plucking verse 7:14 out of context from a pretty long story. The virgin in question is Isaiah's wife and it is clear that Isaiah had sex with her and virgin in Hebrew can mean a lady that has not had a baby yet.

Your initial statement — “the scriptures does not imply in any way a virgin birth” — doesn’t match your later comment that Mary’s conception was “of the Holy Spirit.” Those two claims can’t both be true, so I want to be sure I understand your position before addressing the rest of your points.

Your claim that “begotten means sexual reproduction” is not supported by Scripture or by the Greek text. The term applied to Jesus is monogenes, which means “only, unique, one‑of‑a‑kind,” not “sexually generated.” The New Testament never uses monogenes to describe physical intercourse, and Matthew explicitly denies sexual conception in Jesus’ case: “Before they came together She was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18), and “that which is conceived in Her is of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20). If you insist that “begotten” must mean sexual reproduction, you end up contradicting Matthew’s own narrative.

Your comments about Isaiah 7 also miss the point. Isaiah 7 is indeed a historical episode involving King Ahaz, but Matthew is not pretending otherwise. He explicitly says that the prophecy finds its fulfillment in Christ: “All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet” (Matthew 1:22). This is standard Jewish typological interpretation, not cherry‑picking. Matthew is reading Isaiah the way Second‑Temple Judaism regularly read prophetic texts—seeing an immediate historical meaning and a later, fuller realization.

The claim that “the Virgin is Isaiah’s wife” is not supported by the text. Isaiah’s wife is called “the prophetess” in Isaiah 8:3, and the passage explicitly says, “I went to the prophetess, and she conceived.” The text never identifies her with the ‘almah of Isaiah 7:14. These are two different women in two different contexts. Nothing in Isaiah 7 says the sign‑child is Maher‑shalal‑hash‑baz, and nothing in Isaiah 8 says the prophetess is the ‘almah.

Your definition of ‘almah is also incorrect. ‘Almah does not mean “a woman who has had sex but not yet had a baby.” Hebrew has words for a woman who has had intercourse (ishah) and for a woman who has given birth (yōledet). ‘Almah refers to a young woman of marriageable age, presumed chaste, and not yet sexually active. That is why the Septuagint translators—long before Christianity—rendered ‘almah as parthenos, which unambiguously means “virgin.” Matthew follows that translation: “Behold, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son” (Matthew 1:23).

Finally, none of this changes the linguistic point about heos in Matthew 1:25: “but knew Her not until She had borne a Son.” In Koine Greek, heos marks the boundary relevant to Matthew’s theological claim—Joseph had no role in the conception. It does not imply a change afterward, just as "Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death" (2 Samuel 6:23) does not imply she began bearing children after she died. Matthew’s concern is the divine origin of Jesus and the virginity of Mary at His birth, not the later details of Joseph and Mary’s marital life.
 
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Grailhunter

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Your initial statement — “the scriptures does not imply in any way a virgin birth” — doesn’t match your later comment that Mary’s conception was “of the Holy Spirit.” Those two claims can’t both be true, so I want to be sure I understand your position before addressing the rest of your points.

Yes they both can be true.......The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35
 

Armour of God

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I agree that ginosko ("knew") is a standard idiom for sexual relations—Matthew is using it that way. But heos (“until”) does not, in Koine Greek or in Scripture, inherently imply that the opposite happened afterward. Scripture itself disproves that assumption. For example, 2 Samuel 6:23 says, “Michal had no children until the day of her death.” No one concludes she began bearing children after she died. In such cases, heos marks a boundary, not a change of state.

Matthew 1:25 works the same way: “but he did not know Her until She had given birth to a Son.” Matthew is not describing Joseph and Mary’s later marital life. He is reinforcing what he has just narrated in 1:20-24 — the fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 through the virginal conception by the Holy Spirit. Verse 25 simply secures the point: Joseph had no sexual involvement that could cast doubt on the divine origin of Jesus or the virginity of Mary at His birth.

Matthew makes no claim whatsoever—positive or negative—about what happened after the nativity. His concern is theological, not biographical. The verse establishes the Virgin Birth; it does not address post‑birth relations. Reading it as a statement about later intercourse imports a conclusion the text never makes.

Well scripture tells women to submit to their husbands. So if Mary refused to love her husband and would not allow him to love her then that would make her a bad wife
 

Grailhunter

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Your claim that “begotten means sexual reproduction” is not supported by Scripture or by the Greek text.

You need to look a little deeper into the Greek...
Monogenes (μονογενής) has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only".[2] Monogenēs may be used as an adjective. For example, monogenēs pais means only child, only legitimate child or special child.[3] Monogenēs may also be used on its own as a noun. For example, ὁ μονογενής (ho monogenēs) means "the only one", or "the only legitimate child"

In this case for sure it is a child.....a woman was impregnated and the only Son of Yahweh was delivered by Miriam.

The Jehovah's Witnesses take words and change the meaning or insert them out of context. Save your effort I have a college education in the biblical languages.
 

amigo de christo

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Why would they be married but not have sex?

Matthew 1:24-25​

English Standard Version​

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.​

please allow me a few words of clemency . Just because THE unholy RCC made such a statement
DOES NOT MAKE IT FACT at all .
She did not have sex , TILL AFTER THE BIRTH OF THE CHILD.
Just cause a thousand or more years of catholic doctrine has made such claims , DONT MAKE IT SO .
In fact just cause a man can stand within any church , any denomination
dont mean what they cliam IS TRUTH either . For many now contradict the very scrips WHICH are TRUTH
and teach the worship of GOD by means of the precepts of men . And believe me ITS ALL IN VAIN TOO .
I have seen great and even greater blasphemies being sold as though THEY TRUTH and of GOD .
And done so by men and etc that wear wool too . Now one last reminder .
What was it that JESUS had warned even his own to beware of ..........
WOLVES IN WOOL baby . of now which there are many an dthey all seem to be connected
to the love song of a harlot too .
 

Grailhunter

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Your comments about Isaiah 7 also miss the point. Isaiah 7 is indeed a historical episode involving King Ahaz, but Matthew is not pretending otherwise. He explicitly says that the prophecy finds its fulfillment in Christ: “All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet” (Matthew 1:22). This is standard Jewish typological interpretation, not cherry‑picking. Matthew is reading Isaiah the way Second‑Temple Judaism regularly read prophetic texts—seeing an immediate historical meaning and a later, fuller realization.

What could they do? tell them that there is no prophecies that fit! But definitely cherry picking. Nothing in the story about a Messiah or a Messiah that is crucified. Nothing about saving their souls.
 
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amigo de christo

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Well scripture tells women to submit to their husbands. So if Mary refused to love her husband and would not allow him to love her then that would make her a bad wife
as i just wrote above and afore ......
JUST cause men in wool say THUS sayeth the LORD , dont mean THE LORD even said it , and often
their thus sayeth the LORD .............................CONTRADICTS HIS INSPIRED HOLY WORDS in that bible .
GUESS what voice i wont be heeding , THEIRS .
Cause sheep heed ONE VOICE . JESUS . and you can bet his v oice BE THE TRUTH and not lies of wayward men gone wrong .
Many have long long taught the precepts of men as though it be the Doctrine of GOD all mighty .
But the sheep did not hear or heed them .
 

amigo de christo

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What could they do? tell them that there is no prophecies that fit! But definitely cherry picking. Nothing in the story about a Messiah or a Messiah that is crucified. Nothing about saving their souls.
finally . MY goodness you must have examined the all inclusive ecuemincal interfaith .
AND NOT ONLY that , F RIEND THEY LIED TO EVERY KNOWN relgoin to man and to christendom .
FLAT OUT LIED and flat out DENIED the very GOSPEL OF GOD ALL MIGHTY which is the gospel of JESUS CHRIST .
Oh i suppose a man can be hopeful in hoping you finally seen through this interfaith web . A man can hope .
And a man can pray that all get the heck out of it now .
 

Grailhunter

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The claim that “the Virgin is Isaiah’s wife” is not supported by the text. Isaiah’s wife is called “the prophetess” in Isaiah 8:3, and the passage explicitly says, “I went to the prophetess, and she conceived.” The text never identifies her with the ‘almah of Isaiah 7:14. These are two different women in two different contexts. Nothing in Isaiah 7 says the sign‑child is Maher‑shalal‑hash‑baz, and nothing in Isaiah 8 says the prophetess is the ‘almah.

3 Then I made love to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz Isaiah 8:3 NIV

3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; Isaiah 8:3 NASB

3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz; Isaiah 8:3

How many ways do you want it.
 

amigo de christo

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What could they do? tell them that there is no prophecies that fit! But definitely cherry picking. Nothing in the story about a Messiah or a Messiah that is crucified. Nothing about saving their souls.
please allow me a few words of clemency . Just because THE unholy RCC made such a statement
DOES NOT MAKE IT FACT at all .
She did not have sex , TILL AFTER THE BIRTH OF THE CHILD.
Just cause a thousand or more years of catholic doctrine has made such claims , DONT MAKE IT SO .
In fact just cause a man can stand within any church , any denomination
dont mean what they cliam IS TRUTH either . For many now contradict the very scrips WHICH are TRUTH
and teach the worship of GOD by means of the precepts of men . And believe me ITS ALL IN VAIN TOO .
I have seen great and even greater blasphemies being sold as though THEY TRUTH and of GOD .
And done so by men and etc that wear wool too . Now one last reminder .
What was it that JESUS had warned even his own to beware of ..........
WOLVES IN WOOL baby . of now which there are many an dthey all seem to be connected
to the love song of a harlot too .
 

Grailhunter

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Finally, none of this changes the linguistic point about heos in Matthew 1:25: “but knew Her not until She had borne a Son.” In Koine Greek, heos marks the boundary relevant to Matthew’s theological claim—Joseph had no role in the conception. It does not imply a change afterward, just as “Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death” (2 Samuel 6:23) does not imply she began bearing children after she died. Matthew’s concern is the divine origin of Jesus and the virginity of Mary at His birth, not the later details of Joseph and Mary’s marital life.

No contest on Joseph holding off making love to Miriam until after Yeshua was born.