So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

[shturt678]

.

And if we think it through , those souls can also think , perceive time , ask questions , and remember their past


“How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Revelation 6:9-10

Absolutely agree to agree with you....I spaced this part out with my response to you..sorry, however what is your take on any part of Rev.20:4 as this area is a challenge for me for sure? And above my paygrade.

Old Jack

 

[n2thelight]

Shalom, n2thelight.


You don't know what you're talking about. Here's the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1-2 (transliterated) with a word-for-word translation:

Bree'shiyt 1:1-2
1 Bree’shiyt baaraa’ Elohiym eet hashaamayim v’eet haa’aarets:
2 Vhaa’aarets haaytaah tohuw vaaVohuw vchoshekh `al pneey t-howm vruwach Elohiym mrachefet `al pneey hamaayim:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

1 Bree’shiyt = 1 In-beginning
baaraa’ = created
Elohiym = God
eet = (following is the direct object)
hashaamayim = the-skies
v’eet = and-(following is the direct object)
haa’aarets: = the-earth:
2 Vhaa’aarets = 2 And-the-earth
haaytaah = existed
tohuw = a-desert
vaaVohuw = and-empty
vchoshekh = and-darkness
`al = upon/against
pneey = its-(sur)face
t-howm = of-abyss
vruwach = and-wind
Elohiym = of-God
mrachefet = fluttered
`al = upon/against
pneey = its-(sur)face
hamaayim: = of-the-waters:

When God created, He created perfectly, and that matter that He created was perfect within its matrix, but it could not go beyond what it was made to be. When He created the elements, such as oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, silicon, nitrogen, etc., they were perfect as elements but they had little form! Silicon and oxygen could combine to form silicas, hydrogen and oxygen could combine to form water, hydrogen and carbon could combine to form methane, but they HAD NO LIFE!

It required God to step in and take the matter to a higher level! So, for six days, He created first the environments for the various inhabitants, and then He created the inhabitants for those systems!

Day 1: Light
Day 2: Skies & Seas
Day 3: Earth & Plants
Day 4: Luminaries
Day 5: Birds & Fish
Day 6: Land Animals & Mankind

There was NO SUCH THING as a thing before He created things! Get a grip!

Secondly, Jeremiah 4 is NOT talking about the Creation or a time before Creation! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah), the "Weeping Prophet," was talking about the INVASION OF ISRA'EL by the armies from Nebuchadnezzar!!!

Jeremiah 4:1-5:1
4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai,
“yes, return to me; and if you will banish
your abominations from my presence
without wandering astray again;
2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’
in truth, justice and righteousness;
then the nations will bless themselves by him,
and in him will they glory.”
3 For here is what Adonai says
to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:

“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed,
and do not sow among thorns.”
4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim,
circumcise yourselves for Adonai,
remove the foreskins of your heart!
Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire,
burning so hot that no one can quench it,
because of how evil your actions are.
5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim;
say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’
Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble!
Let us go to the fortified cities!’
6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon,
head for cover without delay.
For I will bring disaster from the north,
yes, dire destruction.
7 A lion has risen from his lair,
a destroyer of nations has set out,
left his own place to ruin your land,
to demolish and depopulate your cities.”
8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth,
lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger
has not turned away from us.
9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“the king’s heart will fail him,
likewise the princes’;
the cohanim will be appalled
and the prophets stupefied.”
10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”
11 “At that time it will be said
of this people and of Yerushalayim:
‘A scorching wind from the desert heights
is sweeping down on my people.’
It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;
12 this wind of mine is too strong for that.
Now I will pass sentence on them.”
13 Here he comes, like the clouds,
his chariots like the whirlwind,
his horses faster than eagles!
Woe to us, we are doomed!
14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim,
so that you can be saved.
How long will you harbor within yourselves
your evil thoughts?
15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:
16 “Report it to the nations,
proclaim about Yerushalayim:
‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country,
watching and shouting their war cry
against the cities of Y’hudah.’
17 Like guards in a field they surround her,
because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.
18 “Your own ways and your actions
have brought these things on yourselves.
This is your wickedness, so bitter!
It has reached your very heart.”
19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain!
My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! —
because I have heard the shofar sound;
it’s the call to war.
20 The news is disaster after disaster!
All the land is ruined!
My tents are suddenly destroyed,
my tent curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see that signal
and hear the shofar sound?
22 “It is because my people are foolish —
they do not know me; they are stupid children,
without understanding, wise when doing evil;
but they don’t know how to do good.”
23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void —
and at the sky — it had no light.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook —
all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I looked, and there was no human being;
all the birds in the air had fled.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert,
all the land’s cities were razed to the ground
at the presence of Adonai,
before his burning anger.
27 For here is what Adonai says:
“The whole land will be desolate
(although I will not destroy it completely).
28 Because of this, the land will mourn
and the sky above be black;
for I have spoken, I have decided,
I will not change my mind, I will not turn back.”
29 At the noise of the horsemen and archers,
the entire city flees —
some plunge into thickets; others climb rocks;
all cities are deserted; no one lives there.
30 And you, who are doomed to be plundered,
what do you mean by putting on crimson,
decking yourselves with jewels and gold,
enlarging your eyes with eye make-up?
You beautify yourself in vain —
your lovers despise you, they seek your life!
31 For I have heard a sound like a woman in labor,
in anguish giving birth to her first child.
It is the sound of the daughter of Tziyon
gasping for breath as she spreads her hands:
“Woe to me! Everything in me
is so weary before the killers.”
5:1 “Roam the streets of Yerushalayim
look around, observe and ask in its open spaces:
if you can find anyone (if there is anyone!)
who acts with justice and seeks the truth,
I will pardon her.
CJB

Again, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Creation! It's a blind eye that could look at this passage and see anything other than the destruction of Isra'el, Y'hudah (Judah), and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!

Sorry you can't see it,it's all good though......I'll stand on what I believe,and my grip is firm....

 

[Chopper]

The OP is an interesting subject to be sure. Luke 23:43 has those two interesting and controversial words "Today" and "Paridise". There are some people who think that paradise is somewhere in the earth because of the parable of the rich man and Lazaruth. Paul, in 2 Corinthians 12:4 says it's up. 2Cor. 12:4 "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." And Revelation 2:7 Rev 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Next is the word "today". The following theologians believe that "today" meant that day! Albert Barnes; John Darby; John Gill; and my favorites, Jamieson, Fausset & Brown.

The paradise that Paul experienced, IMO, is where we Christians go after we die, immediately. The paradise that Revelation speaks of is future in the Kingdom of God.

 

[HammerStone]

I've always chalked up some of the questions and ambivalence to the notion that God is atemporal. It's hard to explain, but essentially it boils down to the concept that when I die and when my great, great grandfather died, we went to be with the Lord. In this world, a hundred year has passed, but when you have an eternal God - it's the same point in the existence outside of this world.

I find this to fit with the notion of Paul visiting the third heaven, the references to us being with God at death, and this tension of the already but not yet.

 

[Tex]

From the thread titled "soul sleep",

Replying to Martin,

If there is a real Jerusalem in Heaven with gold-paved streets where the spirits of the faithful reside... how do they use said street? They don't have legs... How do they know they are in heaven? They don't have brains... The spirit does not have the same powers of the body!

Lets assume that what you say is true. The faithful dead are in heaven with golden streets and so on and so forth. If that is the case, what is the point of resurrection?

Replying to PTL,

Scripture is divinely inspired, but there are vast disagreements throughout Christianity. What tool do we use to interpret? Reason. It would be unreasonable to interpret "I have no come to condemn the world..." as "I am only here to save lobsters". Furthermore, logos is "the word", but is is also "logic" and "wisdom". Reason, so long as it is rightly formed, is correct regardless.

The 1 Php passage you quote was exactly what I addressed with the paragraph that starts with "Paul". To die is gain. Martyrdom did amazing things for the Church. Also, it's one step closer to resurrection. If my belief is right, when you die you fast-forward to the resurrection because you no longer sense the passage of time. This would make death a great gain, because resurrection is literally seconds afterward. With resurrection comes a glorified body and the most intimate state possible with our Lord.

I see no contradiction whatsoever. What I see is continuity of scripture. Ecclesiastes is not suddenly false. Genesis still holds true. All of the old testament scripture on death remains just as truthful today. Jesus gives new life, which is the resurrection. Stating that death isn't so bad or that the new life is not the bodily life promised by our Lord is heresy.

 

[Martin W.]

Lets assume that what you say is true. The faithful dead are in heaven with golden streets and so on and so forth. If that is the case, what is the point of resurrection?

Resurrection IS the whole purpose , some day our souls will be united with new bodies that will never die , that will not happen until this old earth has completed its course . Of course I am sure you know that already , but you were trying to imply I said to be with the Lord (in spirit) (after death) was some kind of wonderful complete life or something

The complete experience happens later , and the City of God comes down to earth , complete with gold streets and pearly gates

 

[aspen]

The term soul means body plus spirit. Plato used the word soul interchangeably with spirit, not early Christianity.

 

[n2thelight]

Resurrection IS the whole purpose , some day our souls will be united with new bodies that will never die , that will not happen until this old earth has completed its course . Of course I am sure you know that already , but you were trying to imply I said to be with the Lord (in spirit) (after death) was some kind of wonderful complete life or something

The complete experience happens later , and the City of God comes down to earth , complete with gold streets and pearly gates

Our souls will not be united with a new body,it is already a body on it's own ,we as of now have two bodies,one inside the other,at death one steps out,the other goes back to the dust,never to be used again

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?
We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him."

Believing that Jesus died and rose again is required of all Christians. At the seventh trump God is not going to raise souls rotting in the ground, but they are already there with Him, and at Jesus coming these souls of dead loved ones will return with Christ to the earth. There is not meeting half way as the rapture theory teaches, but at their arrival you who are alive at that time will be changed to the same spiritual bodies that they have.

 

[shturt678]

I've always chalked up some of the questions and ambivalence to the notion that God is atemporal. It's hard to explain, but essentially it boils down to the concept that when I die and when my great, great grandfather died, we went to be with the Lord. In this world, a hundred year has passed, but when you have an eternal God - it's the same point in the existence outside of this world.

I find this to fit with the notion of Paul visiting the third heaven, the references to us being with God at death, and this tension of the already but not yet.

Thank you for caring!

I agree with you. I get called to the hospital bed sides of Christians often, and sadly there one common denominator with too many, ie, not all. They're angry (God made a mistake as wasn't their time) causing unnecessary family problems who are dealing with enough already making it more difficult for the care workers all of whom want me to intervene...I've learned to just be there keeping my mouth shut through the decades...they're also concerned about the next guy moving in after they go....seriously bumped into this recently...who cares? The bottom line is they weren't ready, and should be excited that it's the end of what this is all about anyway...we'll immediately awake in the mansion our Lord prepared for us, ie, way better than the best hotels or motels as a person less sin. Let the other guy enjoy your new boat, house, cars, stocks, life insurance policy, and all the bills and head aches that go with it.

Old Jack, sorry, got carried away.

 

[RANDOR]

Thank you for caring!

I agree with you. I get called to the hospital bed sides of Christians often, and sadly there one common denominator with too many, ie, not all. They're angry (God made a mistake as wasn't their time) causing unnecessary family problems who are dealing with enough already making it more difficult for the care workers all of whom want me to intervene...I've learned to just be there keeping my mouth shut through the decades...they're also concerned about the next guy moving in after they go....seriously bumped into this recently...who cares? The bottom line is they weren't ready, and should be excited that it's the end of what this is all about anyway...we'll immediately awake in the mansion our Lord prepared for us, ie, way better than the best hotels or motels as a person less sin. Let the other guy enjoy your new boat, house, cars, stocks, life insurance policy, and all the bills and head aches that go with it.

Old Jack, sorry, got carried away.

Yep, satan stands at the gate................net in hand...........ready and more than able to catch that last breath,
And many...........will hand it over willingly.
Ol Jack...............ya need to get in there and scare the livin hell right out of them.

But...yes, it is a sad thing to watch.

 

[shturt678]

Yep, satan stands at the gate................net in hand...........ready and more than able to catch that last breath,
And many...........will hand it over willingly.
Ol Jack...............ya need to get in there and scare the livin hell right out of them.

But...yes, it is a sad thing to watch.

Thank you for your response again!

I use to be really concerned what I should say to those that were in serious to critical condition in/out of the hospitals...thunderous silence with hugs and prayers worked everytime. At times I use to receive some questions like why do you spend so many hours visiting when you only have to come a visit for a few minutes? My response was "I didn't mind the time as gave me some serious time Bible thumping." Use this terminology so not to leave any impressions of self-rightousness.

My view of Matt.6:13 is what scares the hell out of some, ie, they never heard before that our Lord wants us to have a blessed death being the only way to be delivered from a wicked world...my end point: the fear and agape of God is to free us from all coveting (we can't take stuff with us) and lust.

Old, in the process of being delivered, Jack looking forward to awake in my new furnished prepared room...lowest glory fine with me.