So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

[shturt678]

Dan.7:22, "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High.." We even judge angels?

Old curious Jack - sounds exciting to me.

My number is coming up. I missed my last appointment, but our Lord rescheduled.

 

[Nomad]

So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

The following verse would indicate that passing on is to be immediately present with the Lord.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[shturt678]

The following verse would indicate that passing on is to be immediately present with the Lord.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Thank you for your response!

I have a witness, I feel better already - no soul 'sleep'?

Old Jack getting ready to 'sleep.'

btw my bank account boarders on "overdraw," and I strongly feel that our bank has a million dollars or more that were deposited for us by Christ; he has, indeed, deposited them for us, and when at death we come to draw them out, they will be handed out to us, we shall get sight of every penny of them, shall have them in our hands forever.

Not charged anymore 30$ for my overdraws.

 

[brakelite]

Hi Jack. Please FBI listeners, take no notice of my greeting.
I have a question. If you go straight to heaven and your body isn't resurrected until the second coming, how can you see, hear, speak, feel, touch, think, smell, sense anything when all the special parts which enabled those actions are lying decaying in a dusty box? Now of course some-one, stretching for an answer, may reply that we do those things 'in the spirit'. I would remind such a one before hand that it is in the mind that our spirits communicate. If the mind is dead, (or asleep/unconscious according to Solomon ...Eccl. 9:5,6.) how can we be sufficiently alive to take even the slightest notice of our surroundings?

 

[Nomad]

I would remind such a one before hand that it is in the mind that our spirits communicate.

That's an assumption without a shred of evidence.

If the mind is dead, (or asleep/unconscious according to Solomon ...Eccl. 9:5,6.) how can we be sufficiently alive to take even the slightest notice of our surroundings?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

The statement that "the dead know nothing" in verse 5 is explained in verse 6. It clearly teaches that those who die are cut off from the knowledge of this life. It says nothing regarding the life to come. That question is answered by Paul in the NT. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, brakelite.

It's even simpler than that. The word for "spirit" in both Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma) mean "wind; current of air; or a forceful breath!" The word for "soul" in both Hebrew (nefesh) and Greek (psuchee) mean "an animated body that breathes!" It's also seen quite simply in Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (nafach) into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nefesh).
KJV

So, we don't even NEED a figurative sense of these words! They DIRECTLY mean that God's Spirit breathed into the man's body and the man BECAME a body that breathes!

Thus, when a man dies and his spirit (breath) leaves his body, his body is no longer a soul (breather)!

Many preachers (at least that I've encountered) teach that Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Elezar (Lazarus) is about the rich man ending up in hell with all of his senses, but one should really look at the passage more carefully! The rich man HAS his body back! He wanted Elezar to "cool his tongue!" He was "tormented in the flames," and he had his eyes for he could SEE Avraham and Elezar afar off! He SAID words to Avraham and he could HEAR Avraham's response, so he had his ears! This isn't a picture of "hell"; it's a picture of the SECOND RESURRECTION!

The Greek word for "hell" in verses 23 is "hadees" (pronounced "HAH-dace," not "HAY-deez," btw), and it means the "unseen" like we would use the word the "unknown."

So, the rich man died and the next thing he knew, he was standing in the consequences of his judgment AFTER his resurrection!

 

[brakelite]

Shalom, brakelite.

It's even simpler than that. The word for "spirit" in both Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma) mean "wind; current of air; or a forceful breath!" The word for "soul" in both Hebrew (nefesh) and Greek (psuchee) mean "an animated body that breathes!" It's also seen quite simply in Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (nafach) into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nefesh).
KJV

So, we don't even NEED a figurative sense of these words! They DIRECTLY mean that God's Spirit breathed into the man's body and the man BECAME a body that breathes!

Thus, when a man dies and his spirit (breath) leaves his body, his body is no longer a soul (breather)!

Many preachers (at least that I've encountered) teach that Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Elezar (Lazarus) is about the rich man ending up in hell with all of his senses, but one should really look at the passage more carefully! The rich man HAS his body back! He wanted Elezar to "cool his tongue!" He was "tormented in the flames," and he had his eyes for he could SEE Avraham and Elezar afar off! He SAID words to Avraham and he could HEAR Avraham's response, so he had his ears! This isn't a picture of "hell"; it's a picture of the SECOND RESURRECTION!

The Greek word for "hell" in verses 23 is "hadees" (pronounced "HAH-dace," not "HAY-deez," btw), and it means the "unseen" like we would use the word the "unknown."

So, the rich man died and the next thing he knew, he was standing in the consequences of his judgment AFTER his resurrection!

Yes retro, I agree with that. Just like we awake from sleep, the time between our nodding off and the time we wake up is unknown to us. Totally unaware of time passing, totally unaware of goings on around us, until we wake up. Death is the same. We die. The next thing we know we are being resurrected. Regardless that there may have been 30 or 1000 years in between. Everyone goes to heaven at the same time, and after the millennium, everyone else is sent to their destruction in the fires of hell..

That's an assumption without a shred of evidence.


Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

The statement that "the dead know nothing" in verse 5 is explained in verse 6. It clearly teaches that those who die are cut off from the knowledge of this life. It says nothing regarding the life to come. That question is answered by Paul in the NT. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

You castigated me for assuming that the spirit needs the mind to communicate. Quite so. But you are also assuming that the spirit has a form of life of its own outside the body. You are assuming that the spirit is some form of immortal sentient entity when in fact the Bible says that God, Who is Spirit, only has immortality.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The following verse would indicate that passing on is to be immediately present with the Lord.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I can't recall any funeral that the speaker didn't point out that the one who had passed away was now in the presence of the Lord. If they were Christian, that would be correct.

Now I ask all, how is it one can believe the above and yet not believe the rapture has already taken place?

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Dan.7:22, "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High.." We even judge angels?

Old curious Jack - sounds exciting to me.

My number is coming up. I missed my last appointment, but our Lord rescheduled.

I recall reading we will judge the angels .... wow that is a profound thought

Bible also says ...... "are not all angels ministering spirits sent to those who will inherit salvation"

Apparently angels take great interest in what we do. They rejoice when someone is saved


I cant help but think we must grieve those angels sometimes , and that bothers me terrible

 

[brakelite]

I recall reading we will judge the angels .... wow that is a profound thought

Bible also says ...... "are not all angels ministering spirits sent to those who will inherit salvation"

Apparently angels take great interest in what we do. They rejoice when someone is saved


I cant help but think we must grieve those angels sometimes , and that bothers me terrible

It isn't the good angels though we will be called to judge.

 

[Forsakenone]

I would remind such a one before hand that it is in the mind that our spirits communicate.

That's an assumption without a shred of evidence.

Well said.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

2 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God,
an house not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan,
earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

You get a new body -
but this seem to conflict some of the natural burial resurrection believers.
Some bodies don't even exist any more to resurrect - so what's the purpose ?

 

[brakelite]

Well said.

So you also think that the spirit of man is a separate entity having a life of its own? And where is the evidence for that? And where else do we communicate from (it doesn't matter whether spiritually or naturally) if not from the mind?

 

[shturt678]

Hi Jack. Please FBI listeners, take no notice of my greeting.
I have a question. If you go straight to heaven and your body isn't resurrected until the second coming, how can you see, hear, speak, feel, touch, think, smell, sense anything when all the special parts which enabled those actions are lying decaying in a dusty box? Now of course some-one, stretching for an answer, may reply that we do those things 'in the spirit'. I would remind such a one before hand that it is in the mind that our spirits communicate. If the mind is dead, (or asleep/unconscious according to Solomon ...Eccl. 9:5,6.) how can we be sufficiently alive to take even the slightest notice of our surroundings?

Thank you for your respone!

Simply our bodies are only temporary tents for our immortal souls. Not so simple is understanding the concept of "Sheol" which is used in the wide sense where all men go into "sheol" entering the grave (body only). Used in the narrow sense that is peculiarly applied to the wicked (immortal souls - who we really are), eg, Lk.16:22, etc.

btw I see Airport Security coming, I wonder why?

You're going to have to bring a different passage aboard as Eccles.9:5, 6 deals with "Sheol" in the wide sense contextually. Eccles.9:5, 6, "...For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything...for their memory of them is forgotten." is a description of the condition of the death which begin sarcastically, and then become the direct opposite contextually (common Hebrew "sarcasm").

For the dead have no more part in the history which is unfolding itself amid the light of the upper world, and they can have no more any part therein, for the dead as not living are not only without knowledge, but also without feeling and desire body wise only. One's immortal soul in heaven or hell forever and ever.

Old Jack shooting for the heaven part.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bible_Gazer.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God,
an house not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens.y
2 For in this we groan,
earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

You get a new body -
but this seem to conflict some of the natural burial resurrection believers.
Some bodies don't even exist any more to resurrect - so what's the purpose ?

What's the purpose?! To live with our FAMILY, enjoying one another's company and learning more about our relatives, which, of course, includes our Messiah! The key words (in English, one word in Greek) is "FROM HEAVEN" or "from the sky!" That new body is a work of creation! What part of Adam existed before HIS creation? Eloheinu KNOWS us and has all of our parts "catalogued!" When the resurrection occurs, Eloheinu (our God) will resurrect our bodies FIRST, even down to the DNA sequencing, and THEN they are transformed into the image of the Messiah!

1 Corinthians 15:50-57
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

There's no conflict ... except those in our minds that we bring with us to the table.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

It isn't the good angels though we will be called to judge.

Where does it say that ?

thanks

 

[aspen]

I tend to think that 'judging angels' means that we will finally be fit to judge others. We certainly suck at judging others in our current fallen state - that is why Christ tells us to knock it off. Jesus telling us to not judge is like a parent telling their kids to stop arguing because they have no authority or business doing so. Finally, in our complete state of perfection, we will have the authority to declare the truth, that angels are Holy creatures made by God. We cannot say that today - we do not know the difference between Good and Evil, we have to take God's word for it.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

The dead in Christ shall rise first

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When a Christian dies our spirit is taken to heaven by the Holy Spirit that has sealed us during our life. He will never leave us nor forsake us so when we go to heaven he will go to heaven with us.

2 Corinthians 5:1-9
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (((Earthly body))) were dissolved (((Dead))), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


When Jesus comes back in the heavens to call up the living Christians the sin nature will be removed from our bodies.


1 Corinthians 15:50:55
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?






At the resurrection our dead earthly bodies will be called up to Jesus in the air where our heavenly bodies will be put on over our resurrected earthly bodies and the two bodies become one body with our spirit in it.

1 Corinthians 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[shturt678]

I tend to think that 'judging angels' means that we will finally be fit to judge others. We certainly suck at judging others in our current fallen state - that is why Christ tells us to knock it off. Jesus telling us to not judge is like a parent telling their kids to stop arguing because they have no authority or business doing so. Finally, in our complete state of perfection, we will have the authority to declare the truth, that angels are Holy creatures made by God. We cannot say that today - we do not know the difference between Good and Evil, we have to take God's word for it.

Thank you for caring!

I just wanted to supplement your good response my brother. Those that have the Word in the truthful direction reign with our King presently and are to judge now in light of Jn.7:24. We reign in a limited way if we have the Word cut pretty straight - boy, I'm working on that one for sure,

Old ex-crooked Jack - thank you Jesus, and aspen!

 

[RANDOR]

If I could just getttttttttttttttttttt this plank out of my eye............wait a minute....GOT IT!!!!! POP!
Look out...........now I can see clearly to judge.