Dear sir,
I have been pretty clear.....we don't need faith ALONE.
FHII, I believe you are a good Christian. If you disobey God, will you go to heaven?
Mary
Sola Fide
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I have been pretty clear.....we don't need faith ALONE.
FHII, I believe you are a good Christian. If you disobey God, will you go to heaven?
Mary
I know thats what you are saying, and again... An infant has neither faith or works.
If you point is that they have grace, fine. Roman 5 says we have access to grace through faith. So faith is how we have grace.
As to whether a non christian can go to heaven.... Show relevance to the topic.
So, according to you, Faith=Grace. Interesting.
I am sure you have heard of the tribes in the middle of the jungle? Generally no contact with civilization. They still wear loin clothes and live in wood or mud huts. They have never been told about Christ and possibly even God. Do they go to heaven?
Mary
Through Jesus Christ we have access BY faith INTO grace. Thats what Romans 5 says.
Whats next? Lawyers?
Mary, Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. But that's not the topic. Do you have any thing to say about whether we are saved by faith alone or whether you need works with faith?
Hi FHII,
Have those tribes in the middle of the jungle ever heard of Jesus? God? Scripture?
How can they be held accountable if they have never been told? How can they have faith if they have never heard His word? Do they go to heaven?
If you disobey God will you go to heaven?
Mary
I guess Mary, you just dont get it, Jesus paid teh price for "all" men, what sort of God do you think it is we serve??? One day teh religious in this world will wake up and they will finally discover God. I hope it is sooner than later.
bbyrd009
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bbyrd009
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my opinion would be that when a baby first decides to act willful rather than obey their parents, they have broken the law, Mary. But they also learn grace then too usually, i guess. But i don't think they would be considered "accountable" yet, and imo this is a poor way to develop what can only ever amount to a belief, that has no practical bearing on anyone's faith that i can see? Why not debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin iow. Or do you see some valid point here?
bbyrd009
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H. Richard
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Who are we to judge God?
Rom 9:17-25
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
NKJV
Rom 9:17-25
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
NKJV
Mary, Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. But that's not the topic. Do you have any thing to say about whether we are saved by faith alone or whether you need works with faith?
Hi FHII,
It seems your answer is that since they were never told about Jesus (through no fault of their own) then they don't go to heaven. I wonder what happens to their soul when they die.
A "believer" in Jesus WILL NOT go to heaven if they disobey God (sin) especially if they commit the unforgivable sin. Even though they have the "faith" or "belief" in Jesus/God, they will not go to heaven. Therefor the "faith alone" theory does not work.
According to your theory no infants, no adolescents (before the age of reason), no adults with such a low mental capacity that they can't comprehend the concept of God/Jesus, anyone that has never heard of Jesus (through no fault of their own) and anyone that is not Christian will not go to heaven. Your theory leaves out Gods GRACE to get to heaven. Your theory does not account to what happened to all those souls.
Another hole in your theory is that scripture says whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved.
Belief. Grace. Baptism. Obedience to God. Good works....Just like scripture says.
Love Mary
Hi,
Is that when the soul enters the body? When a baby decides to act willful rather than obey their parents?
Curious Mary
This is how those who have never heard of Jesus will be judged.
Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
o
Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
o
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Seems your answer is they don't need faith at all.
With faith we obtain grace. We are no under the law. Now what's the "unforgivable sin" you are speaking of when sin abounds, grace does much more abound? Yes, there is an unforgivable sin.... It has nothing to do with the law or works of the flesh.
No... I have been saying grace through faith the whole time. Again you are saying they don't need faith (and therefore... Who does?)
Works (your way) frustrates grace.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Being baptized into Christ is necessary. Being baptized in physical water is not. Good works are necessary. Works of the flesh are not. Devils believe there is one God. Do they have faith?
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By the way... Do you remember what I said about infant death and going to heaven? I said I don't know! Do not misrepresent me again.
bbyrd009
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i don't think so, even dogs and cats can act willful. We forget this--and of course school is not for learning, or this would be covered pretty early--but you could not look in a mirror and see "yourself" up until about age 18 months or so. As strange as that sounds at first. Prolly more likely that that is when you "fall" than when you get a soul though i guess. We are born a "soul" i think
Seems your answer is they don't need faith at all.
Really? Have you been reading what I write or are you just not understanding what I wrote?
Post #61 By grace, faith and works a person can be saved. NOT by faith alone.
Post #62 FAITH and GRACE not faith alone….You have to have faith AND then by the grace of God you are saved...NOT faith alone. FAITH and GRACE?
Post #80 I agree, we are saved through faith in Jesus.
Post #115 It starts with faith....for a Christian.
Post #120 It takes more than faith alone to obtain salvation.
Post #121 I have been pretty clear.....we don't need faith ALONE.
With faith we obtain grace. We are no under the law. No... I have been saying grace through faith the whole time.
People who never heard of God or Jesus can't get to heaven? News flash...they do. And they never had faith.
Again you are saying they don't need faith...
Not true. NEVER said that. Refer back to post #61, 62, 80, 115, 120 and 121
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
How can they be saved by grace if they never had faith?
Being baptized into Christ is necessary. Being baptized in physical water is not. Good works are necessary. Works of the flesh are not. Devils believe there is one God. Do they have faith?
You are right....the Apostles and the 1st Century Christians were wrong. Baptizing in water is not necessary. They were such idiots. Twisting scripture around to fit a Catholic teaching.
Yes. Devils have FAITH ALONE. They clearly don't have good works or believe in water baptism therefore God does not give them grace.
Mary
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Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
I agree.
God gives everyone a measure of faith.
By the grace of God, we must use that faith to believe.....
Thats stupid. Not even worth addtessing.
Devils don't have faith at all and grace comes by faith WITHOUT WORKS.
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