Sola Scriptura? Really?

[aspen]

Foreigner said:

-- So the Bible is simply "man made doctrine" Uh huh....

So you are saying that you only believe in private interpretation of scripture? Dangerous ground......

-- So, since something is a "tradition" that automatically means it is not only a good thing but based on truth....

So since Luther decided to clarify scripture by adding the word "alone" after the word faith, it is now justifies easy salvation?

-- Care to ponder just how many characters in the New Test. never had a burial place recorded or identified?
THIS is the threshold for basing a belief that Mary never died?
Catholics do set the bar high, don't they?

Care to ponder how many Protestant teachings can be found in the Early Church? This is the threshold for basing a belief on Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia? Protestants sure have a fanciful recollection of church history.....

 

[Foreigner]

Foreigner said:

-- So the Bible is simply "man made doctrine" Uh huh....

So you are saying that you only believe in private interpretation of scripture? Dangerous ground......-- Aspen

Never even implied that. Such a dishonest implication on your part. Obviously comes from your weak position.
Still, it is very telling that you do not feel God had anything at all to do with what is and isn't in the Bible.




-- So, since something is a "tradition" that automatically means it is not only a good thing but based on truth....

So since Luther decided to clarify scripture by adding the word "alone" after the word faith, it is now justifies easy salvation? -- Aspen

Guess that's one way to keep from having to provide an answer you cannot defend.




-- Care to ponder just how many characters in the New Test. never had a burial place recorded or identified?
THIS is the threshold for basing a belief that Mary never died?
Catholics do set the bar high, don't they?

Care to ponder how many Protestant teachings can be found in the Early Church? This is the threshold for basing a belief on Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia? Protestants sure have a fanciful recollection of church history.....-- Aspen

Whereas Catholics just make it up as they go.
For example:
No one know where Mary was buried.
Therefore, no one knows IF Mary was buried.
Therefore, it is now Catholic doctrine that Mary never died, but was taken bodily into heaven.

But it is only to be believed if the Pope says it "Ex Cathedra"..............right? :lol:





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[Axehead]

-- So the Bible is simply "man made doctrine" Uh huh....

-- So, since something is a "tradition" that automatically means it is not only a good thing but based on truth....

-- Care to ponder just how many characters in the New Test. never had a burial place recorded or identified?
THIS is the threshold for basing a belief that Mary never died?
Catholics do set the bar high, don't they?

Foreigner if you think that is a strange, did you know John the Baptist had two heads?
Here is an excerpt:

This ‘second head’ captured the public’s imagination and appears to have supplanted the ‘first head’. The Church of Constantinople came to commemorate the finding of this head at Emesa, not the earlier one, holding services and a procession in its honour every 24th of February. Perhaps the older head was seen as an embarrassment -as the Benedictine abbot, Guibert of Nogent (†1125) would later declare, to admit that there be two heads would suggest that there were either two John the Baptists or one John who had two heads – both equally impossible assertions!

It is possible that the relics brought by Theodosius fell from favour, were lost, or simply ran out. However, the choice of preferring this ‘second head’ of the first is bizarre. The ‘second head’ was authenticated only by the Emesa church, whereas the earlier head had been recorded by Sozomen and recognised by the Emperor himself. Secondly the details of the story appear blatantly fabulous – how could details of the monks, the potter, his sister or Eustochius have been known to the monk who simply found it buried in the floor of his cave? Thirdly the story features repeated dream visions of the Baptist without a clear purpose – as a result, the head ends up in the possession of various minor characters and a heretical priest, presumably for many years, before eventually again falling into the hands of monks. Finally the palace where the relic is said to have been found belonged to the wrong Herod- Herod the Great, rather than Herod Antipas.

Read the whole article. It is quite interesting to say the least. From St. John's College in Oxford.
http://www.sjc.ox.ac...st.pdf.download

Axehead

Foreigner said:

-- So the Bible is simply "man made doctrine" Uh huh....

So you are saying that you only believe in private interpretation of scripture? Dangerous ground......

Aspen,

I know you don't realize it but whenever any church says that it's interpretation of scripture is the only correct one, that is the definition of a private interpretation of scripture.

It doesn't matter if there are 1 billion followers or 1 trillion followers, when any church on earth says that we alone have the RIGHT INTERPRETATION and no other church does, that is PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.

Axehead

Care to ponder how many Protestant teachings can be found in the Early Church? This is the threshold for basing a belief on Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia? Protestants sure have a fanciful recollection of church history.....

Aspen,

You don't compare Protestant versus Catholicism, you compare Protestant, Presbyterian, Catholicism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Greek Orthodix, etc, etc, against the WORD OF GOD.

Protestantism is not the Word of God.

I have said before, they have their man-made doctrines and traditions that nullify the Word of God, just like Catholicism.

God is calling everyone to come out of anything that dishonors and nullifies His Word and many are coming out of Protestant churches back to Simple Church in the home, in a field, in a coffee shop, or whatever, just like in the NT. There are now about 20-30 million in house churches in America because many cannot take the traditions and doctrines of men anymore and the form of godliness which denies the true power of God.

To be sure, there are true believers in most of men's "Christian" institutions. They are scattered and not everyone who attends a church is a Christian. The RCC doesn't really have to engage in the Counter-Reformation any more. The Reformation itself did not go far enough as they broke away from the RCC spiritually but retained many of the structural man-made traditions. Nevertheless, God used Luther (who did not have all the truth) to bring back to life some valuable truths. God has progressively been illuminating the Scriptures to His wilderness church (remnant church) in the world and that is why many eyes are opening up to the doctrines and traditions of men in the Protestant organizations and leaving them. The Catholic Institution is not an option for them, either, although you will see testimonies once in awhile of people leaving Protestantism for Catholicism and these are highly trumpeted as if millions are doing it.

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

-- Are you really so obtuse that you do not realize this applies to you, as well?
Aspen, you are just as big a pro here of launching "sarcasm, mocking and / or disdain."
You launch your little attacks/snide comments and then try to play the victim card?
Sorry but it doesn't work that way.







-- "But at least disagree with the real teaching." Words to live by, big guy...
http://www.catholicb...rsetexts/3d.htm

"The Assumption of Mary is the teaching that the Blessed Mother was taken up, body and soul, into Heaven after her time here on earth. Her body was not subjected to any corruption or decay. The Church has not defined whether Mary actually died before she was assumed, but the tradition of the Church is that she did."

- The small church I grew up in taught she was taken up alive. Several churches within the Fargo Diocese, the Minneapolis Diocese, the Milwaukee Diocese and the Diocese of Winnipeg still teach that she was alive when she was taken to heaven. And I am sure they are not alone.
But most also state that Mary was born without original sin, so why should they be believed anyway, right?

There seems to be a division within the Catholic church itself as to what it actually believes.
So basically, I can pick or choose and still be right...huh?

Foreigner, from the earliest days of Christianity the Catholic Church has solemnly defined that the Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul, Maybe the last Book of the Bible was already written at the time of Mary's assumption.

 

[Foreigner]

Yes, the Catholic church did say Mary ascended into heaven....without witnesses, or a shred of evidence.

As far as books already being written, if you look at the dates when the Gospels were written, in some cases it was decades after Christ died and almost certainly well after Mary died. He was already 30 years of age when He started His ministry.

 

[neophyte]

Yes, the Catholic church did say Mary ascended into heaven....without witnesses, or a shred of evidence.

As far as books already being written, if you look at the dates when the Gospels were written, in some cases it was decades after Christ died and almost certainly well after Mary died. He was already 30 years of age when He started His ministry.

Foreigne,you're correct, my bad, how stupid of me
.Concerning the assumption of Mary -
The earliest known record is found in the Protoevangelium of James, which dates back to the second century.

 

[Axehead]

Foreigner, from the earliest days of Christianity the Catholic Church has solemnly defined that the Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul, Maybe the last Book of the Bible was already written at the time of Mary's assumption.

This is so ridiculous but people do believe it, there is no denying that. Where are the prophecies about such a major event? Or a letter written to churches which became Holy Spirit inspired Scripture? We see the story of Enoch, Elijah and Elisha but nothing about Mary who is soon to be announced as the Co-Mediatrix (Co-Saviour of mankind). Mary needed forgiveness for her sins just like anyone else. Jesus Christ was her Savior and she died and was buried just like anyone else. And all of her children, Jesus' earthly brothers and sisters died and were buried, too.

Axehead

 

[Mungo]

Mary's Assumption

We believe Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Because the original ark was so precious, it was made of incorruptible wood.

“Arise, Lord, come to your resting place, you and your majestic ark.” (Psalm 132:8)​

As the living Ark of the New Covenant, Mary is majestic and it is fitting that she is incorruptible too.

Mary is a witness for us that we too will, one day, be in heaven body and soul.

Mary who is soon to be announced as the Co-Mediatrix (Co-Saviour of mankind).
Axehead

Untrue

 

[HammerStone]

I debated locking and removing this thread altogether, because I see a number of personal vendettas here. However, I think some of the discussion is profitable. All posts violating the rules of this forum have now been removed.

Ya'll have been warned on this. I know it's a touchy subject given the Protestant and Catholic division, but we need cooperation of following the rules. Debate the opposing argument and not the person.

Warning points will be issued from here on out, and they will be strict.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Foreigner]

Where are these Protestant teachings found in the Bible? - Aspen

'scripture interprets scripture'

-- Aspen, you yourself have used Scripture to confirm the validity of another Scripture when people have questioned whether it supports a Catholic position. Physician, heal thyself.



'ask Jesus into your heart'

-- "Behold, I stand at the door and I knock...."


'alter calls'

-- Actually, you mean "altar calls." "Alter calls" are something COMPLETELY different
No one has said they are required. Many churches have altar calls so those with a specific purpose or need can all be prayed for and counseling/guidance can be given. It also allows for giving direction to people who have just accepted Christ so they don't walk out the door, are left floundering as to what to do next, and in short time convince themselves it didn't happen.


'the church is not needed'

-- Have heard a couple of people here say they do not attend church. So what? That isn't even hinted at as being the norm for any group or denomination.
Almost universally it is recognized that to grow as a Christian you should belong to a body for support, encouragement, and instruction.
"No need to attend church" is by no means a teaching for Protestants. Never has been. Kind of hard to have a denomnation - Protestant or otherwise if the members never meet.
You shouldn't take the off-the-wall opinions of people in the very, very small minority of people and try to paint the entire group with it. It grows old.



'faith alone' - only mention once in the NT in James 2:24

-- James 2:24 is actually supported by Jesus' own words in Matt 25 where he talks about the sheep and the goats and what people failed to do.
However, Eph. 2:8-9 says that man is saved by grace through faith, and not by works lest any man boast.


'remarrying divorced couples'

-- a number of Catholic churches have chosen not marry couples if they they have been divorced. Protestant churches do this sometimes, as well. Scripture says divorce should only be in cases of infidelity...


'Praying to Jesus'

-- I would hope this would be encouraged. Otherwise, what's the point?


'Celebrating Easter'

-- What Christian faith doesn't celebrate the resurrection of our Savior?


'Celebrating Christmas'

-- What Christian faith doesn't celebrate the birth of our Savior?


'Worshiping on Sunday'

-- Justaname gave a very good response to this.




.

 

[aspen]

Thank you justaname for answering the OP. I appreciate your straightforward post without resorting to insults or personal attacks. I can see the Biblical reasoning behind much of what you are saying, however, I can see the Biblical reasoning behind Catholic doctrine that is not explicitly stated in the bible too.

 

[Foreigner]

I can see the Biblical reasoning behind Catholic doctrine that is not explicitly stated in the bible too.

-- For example?



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[Mungo]

• Scripture interprets scripture is a logical statement. Knowing that all scripture is God breathed, (2 Tim 3:16) it is only fitting we use scripture to interpret itself.

Scripture interprets scripture is not logical.

It take a thinking mind to interpret scripture - i.e. a person.

All use of scripture in a discussion involves interpretation.

Just selecting which scripture to use involves a personal choice that the particular scripture is relevant to the topic under discussion. So selecting one piece of scripture to "interpret" another piece scripture is in itself an interpretation, a decision that you think it is relevant.

 

[JohnnyB]

Scripture interprets scripture is not logical.

It take a thinking mind to interpret scripture - i.e. a person.

All use of scripture in a discussion involves interpretation.

Just selecting which scripture to use involves a personal choice that the particular scripture is relevant to the topic under discussion. So selecting one piece of scripture to "interpret" another piece scripture is in itself an interpretation, a decision that you think it is relevant.

A man interpreting the bible is why there are 33,000 different denominations, including catholicism. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, besides, the word interprets us, not the other way around.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as division of soul and spirit, of both joints and morrows, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[aspen]

A man interpreting the bible is why there are 33,000 different denominations, including catholicism. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, besides, the word interprets us, not the other way around.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as division of soul and spirit, of both joints and morrows, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

But everyone of those men whose interpretation of the Bible has lead to heresy and different denominations claim that the Holy Spirit has lead them to that interpretation. See the problem?

 

[JohnnyB]

But everyone of those men whose interpretation of the Bible has lead to heresy and different denominations claim that the Holy Spirit has lead them to that interpretation. See the problem?

Yes, that is the problem! They read the bible without the Holy Spirit and then get people to follow their private interpetation and organize another non profit, tax exempt, man made organization.

All the religious institutions have done this. What Jesus established, men have since tried to corrupt.

 

[Mungo]

A man interpreting the bible is why there are 33,000 different denominations, including catholicism. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, besides, the word interprets us, not the other way around.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as division of soul and spirit, of both joints and morrows, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

What do you mean "the word interprets us, not the other way around"?

 

[JohnnyB]

What do you mean "the word interprets us, not the other way around"?

It is as the verse I provided,

Here it is again: Hebrews 4:12 for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

A vast majority of bibles were written to support particular doctrines, when people read the word, they already have their own personal interpetation established. A person is reading the word through the filter of the doctrine the already believe to be true, so when the Holy Spirit is trying to lead them into all truth, He is stifled and quenched.

When we have false doctrine taught as truth, then we get 33,000 different denominations.

 

[Mungo]

It is as the verse I provided,

Here it is again: Hebrews 4:12 for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

A vast majority of bibles were written to support particular doctrines, when people read the word, they already have their own personal interpetation established. A person is reading the word through the filter of the doctrine the already believe to be true, so when the Holy Spirit is trying to lead them into all truth, He is stifled and quenched.

When we have false doctrine taught as truth, then we get 33,000 different denominations.

Three things :

1. The quote you give says nothing about interpreting scripture. Your selecting that verse, which does not mention interpretation, makes my point about what choose to support our arguments.

2. "A vast majority of bibles were written to support particular doctrines" is an unsubstantiated (and I think outrageous) claim.

3. Jesus never promised the Holy Spirit would lead everyone in to all truth. He was speaking to the apastles, the leaders of the Church, not making some general statement (and yes - that is my interpetation).

 

[Brother James]

Most who subscribe to the sola scriptura belief actually come around to a position of prima scriptura if they think about it long enough. It is clear to me that not all of God's truths are contained in the Bible, although that is not what sola S. or prima S. put forward. What I do not believe, with all due respect to my Catholic bretheren, is that the cannon of scriptures has been authoritatively certified by a council of men. When Jesus rose to read from the scrolls in the synagogues where he would teach, there was no question that what He was reading was the word of God. The holy scriptures existed in spite of the fact that no church existed to certify them. Yes, there were some who only accepted the Pentaetuch, and others who did or didn't accept this or that writing. That makes no difference. Scripture was still scripture regardless of what men accepted or did not accept. The same is true as the New Testament began to be written. Peter acknowledged that Paul's writings were scripture in his own writings, but that was a statment of understanding and not a formal authoritative certification. And it was by no means complete because John had not yet written anything and Paul was continuing to write.

The entire matter rests on whether Jesus instituted a single organizational bureaucracy on earth with the authority to rule on all matters of faith. I do not believe so. In order to believe that I would have to acquire faith to believe things that the evidence does not lead me to convincingly. The Sacred Tradition claimed by the Catholic church is not written any place where we can read it, though it is said to be embodied to a certain extent in the catechism. I do not see any authority for the things it claims as God's truths which are not found in Scripture except for the authority it claims for itself. New truths from Sacred Tradition seem to emerge with new controversies that come up in eccumenical councils from time to time, and that just seems like a convenient way to clear up controversies. The claims for church authority from Matthew 16:18 seem vastly overreaching to me, and the corruptions of men that always get introduced into everything men put their hands to seem to have cause much of the bureacracy to be man-made rather than God-inspired.

If I'm wrong, well, I'll rely on God's mercy and grace since I'm nothing but dust anyway. Until the day I return to dust, I remain open to leading of the Holy Spirit and God's leading me to place my faith in the Church, but until then I'm stuck wishing I could be Catholic but unable to do it. I say wishing to be so because it would be so much easier as a believer not to have to wonder about things, but just look to what the Church teaches and know you've got it right. I see too many things for which there is not scriptural evidence to do that.