Some Questions About Mary

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah I read post #122, and there was no evidence what soever. Just assumptions.

And this response is a TEXTBOOK example of denial in defeat.

In post #129, YOU said:

OK I see your point. So then this leads me to the question of this: Why does God require Mary to remain a virgin? Why not bless her and her husband with children after Jesus is born? What in your belief says God does not want to bless them in that way?

I asked you to go back and read post #122 - which YOU say has "No evidence whatsoever".

I am RE-posting it here for TWO reasons:
1. To show everybody that YOU are lying when you say I have you "no evidence whatsoever."
2. To challenge you to present a sound Scriptural refutation of EACH verse I presented.

I'll wait right here for your response . . .

the Word of God is FULL of Types and Fulfillments. The NT Fulfillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT Types - without exception.
Moses - Jesus
Israel/Judaism - Christ's Church
Peter - Eliakim
The same is true of Type and Fulfillment regarding Mary.

Whereas the symbols of God’s word were contained in the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament, Mary actually carried God himself - the Word - in her womb in the New Testament. And, whereas the OT Ark had to be made of pure materials and blessed and undefiled by man's touch, how much more pure and undefiled would the vessel that actually carried God have to be?

The following comparison chart illustrates the OT type, the Ark of the Covenant with the NT fulfillments of that type, Mary:

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

This is NOT coincidence.
God does NOT deal in mere coincidences - but in TYPE and FULFILLMENT because His plan is perfect.

 

[Pearl]

All the scripture was relevant and I made comments in between.

You asked "So what is God's way?" [of being born again]

I said
Jesus told you in John 3:3-5
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (KJV)
What did you find difficult to understand in that?

I don't find that difficult at all. That is the way to be born again. It's what I believe. So I don't understand why you think my way is not God's way. I have been born again of the Spirit and baptised in water as an adult believer.

 

[historyb]

Oh right. So each and every Catholic person throughout the world has recognised that they are sinners, made that one-off personal commitment to Jesus and received the Holy Spirit into their lives. I don't think so. There are Catholics in my own family who are not born-again. It's just another of the Catholic church's lies to keep their people oppressed.

So now you are the great judge whom is put in charge to determine if everybody is an evangelical and determine their Salvation.

 

[Pearl]

And you.

I'm sorry if I have but I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why people believe in things that I don't see in the bible. Even though you quote numerous verses to explain your cause to be they do not seem to say what you say they do.

 

[Pearl]

So now you are the great judge whom is put in charge to determine if everybody is an evangelical and determine their Salvation.

I was asking a question. But you call it judging. But aren't we called to judge what is truth and what is lies. Isn't that called discernment and is a gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Raccoon1010]

And this response is a TEXTBOOK example of denial in defeat.

In post #129, YOU said:

I asked you to go back and read post #122 - which YOU say has "No evidence whatsoever".

I am RE-posting it here for TWO reasons:
1. To show everybody that YOU are lying when you say I have you "no evidence whatsoever."
2. To challenge you to present a sound Scriptural refutation of EACH verse I presented.

I'll wait right here for your response . . .

the Word of God is FULL of Types and Fulfillments. The NT Fulfillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT Types - without exception.
Moses - Jesus
Israel/Judaism - Christ's Church
Peter - Eliakim
The same is true of Type and Fulfillment regarding Mary.

Whereas the symbols of God’s word were contained in the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament, Mary actually carried God himself - the Word - in her womb in the New Testament. And, whereas the OT Ark had to be made of pure materials and blessed and undefiled by man's touch, how much more pure and undefiled would the vessel that actually carried God have to be?

The following comparison chart illustrates the OT type, the Ark of the Covenant with the NT fulfillments of that type, Mary:

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

This is NOT coincidence.
God does NOT deal in mere coincidences - but in TYPE and FULFILLMENT because His plan is perfect.

Calling me a liar now? A bit un-Christian of you. When you are holding to potentially false beliefs instead of being objective. OK, I'm starting to get to know you now.

 

[historyb]

Then why is it so easily debated?

It's not, just some refuse to accept what the universal Church (not one Church but the whole Church from the Apostles) has taught from the beginning through the Apostles. When the reformation happened people from then on thought they could determine God's truth for themselves, that is why today there are 40,000 plus evangelical denominations

 

[April_Rose]

It's not, just some refuse to accept what the universal Church (not one Church but the whole Church from the Apostles) has taught from the beginning through the Apostles. When the reformation happened people from then on thought they could determine God's truth for themselves, that is why today there are 40,000 plus evangelical denominations

I don't think they refuse to accept it. Everybody just has different beliefs.

 

[historyb]

I was asking a question. But you call it judging. But aren't we called to judge what is truth and what is lies. Isn't that called discernment and is a gift of the Holy Spirit?

No we are not called to judge another Salvation that is God's prevue alone, even as much as I find evangelicalism the most abhorrent repugnant religion I can not judge you or any other's Salvation it is between them and God and non of our business. None of us completely saved until we are dead and not everyone will be a saint in this life and still you will see them in Heaven

 

[historyb]

I don't think they refuse to accept it. Everybody just has different beliefs.

It's not just different beliefs it is a built in stubbornness in humanity to shrug of the things God that goes back to Adam and Eve in the garden. Christianity requires of us as does Christ to accept even those things we don't agree with in humility which is not easy for us (believe me I am a stubborn man) :)

 

[Pearl]

No we are not called to judge another Salvation that is God's prevue alone, even as much as I find evangelicalism the most abhorrent repugnant religion I can not judge you or any other's Salvation it is between them and God and non of our business. None of us completely saved until we are dead and not everyone will be a saint in this life and still you will see them in Heaven

I agree we can't judge another person's salvation as only God can see what is in a person's heart, but we can tell by the way people live their lives and we can judge between lies and truth. And if we are born again we are no longer sinners but saints.

 

[historyb]

I'm sorry if I have but I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why people believe in things that I don't see in the bible

If I may but in again. Not everything has to be in the Bible and no where does the Bible say that everything must be in it. The idea that everything must be in the Bible comes from man not God, God had put in the Bible to stop any question that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[April_Rose]

It's not just different beliefs it is a built in stubbornness in humanity to shrug of the things God that goes back to Adam and Eve in the garden. Christianity requires of us as does Christ to accept even those things we don't agree with in humility which is not easy for us (believe me I am a stubborn man) :)

Sorry, I'm not really sure what you're saying.

 

[historyb]

I agree we can't judge another person's salvation as only God can see what is in a person's heart, but we can tell by the way people live their lives and we can judge between lies and truth. And if we are born again we are no longer sinners but saints.

The first part is mostly right. When we began our Salvation journey we are all sinners, saved by grace but still sinners. Over a lifetime we hope to become more inline with Christ and throughout we will always be sinners and always need to repent we will not be perfected until we get to Heaven to be with God.

 

[historyb]

Sorry, I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I am saying people are stubborn and so they reject God's way and make their own up.

 

[April_Rose]

I am saying people are stubborn and so they reject God's way and make their own up.

Ah I see,.. makes sense.

 

[Mungo]

I don't find that difficult at all. That is the way to be born again. It's what I believe. So I don't understand why you think my way is not God's way. I have been born again of the Spirit and baptised in water as an adult believer.

You asked "How many of your priests and higher clery are born-again believers?"
To which I replied "ALL Catholics are born again as per the Bible."

If you believe that believers are born again in baptism why did you ask how many Catholic priests and clergy are born again since they are all baptised believers?

You then said rather nastily "Oh right. So each and every Catholic person throughout the world has recognised that they are sinners, made that one-off personal commitment to Jesus and received the Holy Spirit into their lives. I don't think so. There are Catholics in my own family who are not born-again. It's just another of the Catholic church's lies to keep their people oppressed."

If you believe that are born again in baptism then why did you make that nasty comment. It implies that being a baptised believer does not make a person born again.

You say that there are Catholics in your family who are not born again
But if they are Catholics they are baptised believers.

It would help if you got your opinions consitent.

 

[Pearl]

You asked "How many of your priests and higher clery are born-again believers?"
To which I replied "ALL Catholics are born again as per the Bible."

If you believe that believers are born again in baptism why did you ask how many Catholic priests and clergy are born again since they are all baptised believers?

You then said rather nastily "Oh right. So each and every Catholic person throughout the world has recognised that they are sinners, made that one-off personal commitment to Jesus and received the Holy Spirit into their lives. I don't think so. There are Catholics in my own family who are not born-again. It's just another of the Catholic church's lies to keep their people oppressed."

If you believe that are born again in baptism then why did you make that nasty comment. It implies that being a baptised believer does not make a person born again.

You say that there are Catholics in your family who are not born again
But if they are Catholics they are baptised believers.

It would help if you got your opinions consitent.

I don't believe people can be born again in baptism. I didn't say that. I believe that only after you are born again - ie received Jesus as your Saviour - do you need to be baptised. I don't count what they call infant baptism.

"You say that there are Catholics in your family who are not born again
But if they are Catholics they are baptised believers."

Yes, my husbands brothers married Catholic girls but although they and their three daughters were all baptised as babies and went to church they do not have the same relationship with Jesus that we do and are definitely not filled with the Holy Spirit.

It's all religion instead of relationship. We could never talk to them about Jesus, they just got embarrassed. Just like my sister does who was brought up CofE like me. I was 'baptised' as a young baby, went to church, got confirmed etc but even though I would have said I was a Christian and knew about Jesus I didn't come to really know Jesus until I was 35 and His Holy Spirit revealed the truth to me and I was born again of the Spirit and became a true Christian. Then I got baptised for real. As far as I'm concerned this is the only way to be born again whatever religion or faith you might belong to.

I'm sorry you thought me post was nasty, but it wasn't meant to be. Sometimes people's posts just come across that way because of the restrictions of online debate.

 

[Mungo]

I don't believe people can be born again in baptism. I didn't say that. I believe that only after you are born again - ie received Jesus as your Saviour - do you need to be baptised. I don't count what they call infant baptism.

Jesus said "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Jesus didn't say be saved and then get baptised.
Belief + baptism = salvation

Peter wrote: "This prefigured baptism, which saves you now" (1Pet 3:21)
That clearly states that baptism saves you.

If you believe something different then you are in denial of scripture.

Jesus said "“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." (John 3:5)
It by water [baptism] and Spirit that we are born again/ born anew/ born from above..

If you believe differently please provide some scripture to back up your opinions. I haven't seen you provide any yet.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Calling me a liar now? A bit un-Christian of you. When you are holding to potentially false beliefs instead of being objective. OK, I'm starting to get to know you now.

I didn't call you anything.

I simply challenged you to give me a sound Scriptural refutation of the Scriptural PROOF of the Type and Fulfillment that I laid out because you falsely claimed that I gave you "No evidence whatsoever".

If you can't refute what I presented - just admit it.