Some Questions To Christians

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Truth light

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Oct 20, 2010
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Here, you always talk about

The word. is it
= God ,or
=Christ , or
=bible , or
=trinity , or
all of them , or
some ?

why you always describe Jesus as a word?

You describe jesus as begotton ?

why he is only begotton, although another prophet is also said to be so in your book ?

What do you mean by begotton exactly ( just 'chosen one' )?

he was a human baby, so why do you still want to beleive he is God ?

why are you always pray to jesus and not God in the heavens ?
 

Surf Rider

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Dec 17, 2009
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in the kingdom of heaven right now
Here, you always talk about

The word. is it
= God ,or
=Christ , or
=bible , or
=trinity , or
all of them , or
some ?

why you always describe Jesus as a word?

You describe jesus as begotton ?

why he is only begotton, although another prophet is also said to be so in your book ?

What do you mean by begotton exactly ( just 'chosen one' )?

he was a human baby, so why do you still want to beleive he is God ?

why are you always pray to jesus and not God in the heavens ?

Good questions, all of them. And you'll get a plethora of answers. So sift through them, but even so, there is an inherent problem with even that. That's life.

First question, regarding word -- what is it? Research shows a very interesting thing on that one. The word "logos", the Greek New Testament word translated as "word" in our english, was never used in the Greek writings to mean "word", for centuries. It has a clearly delineated transition into the "modern" useage as "word". Much can be said in this regard, but space is limited here. I've written a small book on that, detailing the history of it and useages of it, and basically, how Christendom has mis appropriated it for almost 2 millenia. O well. But that's a side issue, with which as the scriptures states elsewhere, those who are at enmity with God will discredit the truth by those who are either foolish, ignorant, or outright hypocrites going by the handle of "Christian". There is no excuse acceptable to God, though. I am a contractor. I built my own house, but had a licensed plumber do that aspect of the job for me. He did a crummy job. I had to fix it so that it would meet code. Pathetic, really. So do I: 1) label all plumbers as fakes and incompetent? (nay-sayers that don't want to admit their own spiritual state) 2) state that there is no such thing as plumbing? (athiests) 3) conclude that there is no such thing as a code, a standard, that must be met for plumbing? (Ecumenicalism, or "all roads lead to Rome") 4) state that there are obviously plumbers that speak as though they know what they are doing, are even labeled as plumbers, have even had training as plumbers, but are not good plumbers and do unacceptable work and should be neither consulted or utilized for plumbing? (A logical, common sense response that should be expected of us.)

Second question, why do they always describe Jesus as a word? See the first answer: ignorance, basically, that has been cemented by almost 2000 years of tradition. But then again, scripture states that we are to beware the traditions of man. Again we see that God knows that all sorts of error will occur, but that He has still given all that is needed for us to seek Him with our whole heart, and thus find Him completely.

Third question, describing Jesus as begotten. We see when reading the scriptures, that that term is used for others, not just Christ. It was an everyday term. Today we would say that He was the only kid born of so-and-so. Others could be adopted, brought into the family by surrogacy, brought into the family by marrying someone who already had kids, etc.. So it merely clarifies who the child came from, and that it was singular. That does not mean that none could come after it. Christ was the firstborn of many brethren, the scriptures state. The "only begotten" was time specific. Just as my first child, a son, was for two years my only begotten. Then I had duaghers and more sons. My "only begotten" then became the "firstborn of many brethren", and they were also obviously jsut as "begotten" as the firstborn was. And thus they are "co-hearis", just as scripture states is true for us with Christ. Christ Himself told a spiritual leader, named Nicodemus, that in order to enter the kingdom of God, we must be born again. The guy was floored: how on earth can we enter the womb a second time? Preposterous! Christ responded by stating that we must be born of God, not be born again physically as Nicodemus had misunderstood. Christ then stated that God is spirit, and man is physical, so to enter into heaven and know/see God, we must be born of spirit: be born of God. Christ then stated, quite bluntly, that that which is of spirit is spirit. God is spirit, we must be born of spirit, and that which is born of God is god: that which is born of spirit is spirit, and God is spirit, Christ said. So Christ, being the first born of many brethren, as prophecied in the Old Testament, "Behold, here am I, and the children you have given me", and "having many brethren", and "The first of many brethren", and others like these, and the many scriptures that state that we must be born of God, as Christ was, for he was our forerunner in all things, it is then clear that we are now begotten of God spiritually, And it is equally obvious that we are still in a human body, right? Christ had a human body also. So Scritpure is right again, when it states that we must be just like him in all things. God is never wrong. Apparently, it is common beliefs that don't fit the scriptures of God, that are wrong. And clearly so. In fact, the New Testament even uses those exact words for those who are truly born again! And no small wonder, for this is the very foundation of salvation. Everything else is a complete spiritual sham, for the very truth, the very foundation of it, is dismissed as being impossible, of being heresy. This is no small tragedy. Christ addressed this also, stating of the spiritual "in-the-know" people: if the spiritual light which is in you, is actually darkness, how great is that darkness!" Obviously. And it seems to perfectly fit much of Christendom. You have seen proof of it, and thus your good questions which are the result of thinking about the proof of these things, as they are contradictions and don't make sense to anyone but the deceived.

However, I must warn you, that as strange as this might seem, most of Christendom considers this to be heresy. Now isn't that just about the craziest thing!

Fourth question, very much just answered. Let me add a little bit, though. Even with Abraham, even though he had Ishmael some 13 years before Isaac, scritpure states, "since you have not withheld your son, your only son...." That's what God said to Abraham when he did not withhold Isaac. It is a spiritual thing, not a physical thing. God is spirit, not flesh and bone. And Christ said, "those who do the will of my Father in heaven are my mother, and my brothers, and my sisters". And Christ, when he stated that he was the son of God, came close to being killed for blasphemy by the spiritual leaders. He said, "Woa, dudes! Why do you seek to kill me? What have I done to merit this?" (paraphrased!) They answered that it wasn't for anything bad that he had done that they were going to kill him right then with stoning, but because he claimed to be a son of God, and by so doing obviously claimed to be of the same essence of God spiritually. Common sense, that. Pears have pears. They never have thistles! Apes have apes. They never have sharks. The point is quite obvious, and this spiritual truth is given by a physical example even in Genesis: everything bore seed after it's own kind. God is no different. If we are to be born of God, as Christ said, then it is just as Christ said: God is spirit, and we must be born of spirit, of God. So back to the example, Christ then said to the religious leaders that were going to stone him for stating that he was a son of God, making himself to be of the same spiritual essence as God himself, Christ gave the Old Testament scriptures, and stated that the scriptures were true and cannot be contradicted or broken: Those to whom the word of God came, are gods. But Christendom considers that to be blasphyemy. However, when reading the Hebrew text of that passage (Psalm 82), it states, "you are Elohim, and you are sons of the Most High, but you will die like men." Christ quoted that, saying, "You are gods to whom the word of God came". Christendom uses the term "born again", and they even use the term "God our Father". God doesn't give birth to humans. God doesn't give birth to apes, sharks, pigs, etc. Everything gives birth after it's own kind. God is spirit. And He gives birth to spirit. Thus, the New Testament states, "we are new creatures in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior", and "the old has passed away, all has become new", and "such were you, but you were washed, you were sanctifiec, you were cleansed". We were that way but no longer are. And it states, "partakers of the divine nature", "having been blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly realms," "where we are with Christ Jesus". But that is considered heresy by mainstream Christendom. And look at their fruti, friend. They claim to know God, but live in sin. They claim that they have victory over sin, but still sin. Because they accept salvation through Christ alone, which is correct, but deny who they are in God, they live a life of duplicity and sining, but having forgiveness, repeatedly God offers total victory, stating that if we believe the truth, we will live the truth, and actually, really and trruly be "more than conquerors" over sin, and that's why it states "he who is born of God cannot sin, for God's seek remains in him, and he cannot sin". And that he who is born of God "keeps himself, and the evil one [Satan] does not touch him", and "pure religion is this.... to keep one's self unspotted from the world."

So it comes down to the plumber thing again: there seems to be so, so many plumbers that can't seem to get the plumbing all correct. They get some of it correct, but there's obvious problems with the sewage backing up. So don't go to them! Go to the ones who actually have accurate, completely and properly working plumbing. That's not rocket science: it's common sense. To do othewise is to gamble your soul. Nobody in their right mind does that!

Next question was answered.

Why do we believe that he is God? Again, that was anwered partially: not all of us do. Deity is different than being God. Example: if one is a professor at a university, they are obviously staff there. If one is a cook at a university, they are obviously staff there. The first, the professor, is also faculty. The second isn't. One can be staff without being faculty. But one cannot be faculty without being staff.

Christ was born of a woman, thus Christ was human in body. Christ was conceived miraculously by God, who is spirit. God doesn't have a body. Many scritpures state this truth. We also have scriptures state that sin entered the world through Adam. But who sinned first? Even the scriptures state that Eve sinned first. Both are true. The spiritual seed, or lineage, to use physical terms to portray the spiritual "equivalent", is through the male, not the female. Thus, Christ received the human body through the female, Mary, but received his spiritual state from God. That's how Christ was sinless. Otherwise, if Christ had had a physical, human father, Christ would have been sinful just like the rest of us were born as. So Christ had to be conceived of God himself, and that's how he was sinless, that's how he had a sinless spiritual nature. All others that have ever been born are sinful, and go astray from the moment they are born, scritpure states. It even uses those very words.

Thus, Christ, even though he was tempted just like we are, was without sin. That's what was needed for mankind to have forgiveness of sins, for the crime was committed by each of us, and penalty for spiritual crime is spiritual death. The wicked cannot atone for themselves. Only that which is holy can make that which is unholy, holy. The impure water cannot make impure water to be pure! That's common sense. And the spiritual truth is the same. And that's why scripture states that we are to be born of God, or we cannot see God or go to heaven or have forgiveness of sins. And we, like Christ, must be this way. Christ was born this way. We were not. But we can be, by believing God. Scriptures state this over and over and over. That's why it states that we are brothers and sisters of Christ, spiritually, for there is one Father, and God over all. That's why Christ taught his disciples to pray, "our Father..."!!! But again, this must be believed, even though there are many spiritual "plumbers" who state that it is heresy. But then again, look at the problem with their plumbing. God has promised total victory to those who are truly born of Him, and believe and live the tturh. It even uses those words, "who believe and live the truth". If you don't believe the truth, you cannot live it. Common sense. If you believe only part of the truth, you can live only part of the truth. And the bible says that a double minded man spiritually, (believes two opposing things), is unstable in all his spiritual ways. Ever wonder why we see so many Christians sinning? Ever wonder why we hear them state that we are sinners and keep sining, yet state that they are spiritually vicotorious over sin? You can't give me a more perfect example of doublmindedness than that! Ever wonder why they state that we must be born again, that God must be our spiritual father, but consider it to be blasphemy! You can't give me a more perfect exmaple of doublemindedness than that! Ever wonder why Christendom has so much sin? Wonder no more: a double minded man is unstable in all his ways, and therefore the "name of God is blasphemed" by Christians.

God offers you total and complete and true victory over sins and forgiveness of all your sins. All of them. And only through Jesus Christ, the sinless son of God, for there is no other name under heaven by which man must be saved. We must repent, and acknowledge that God is, and that he is a total and complete rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. God has stated that he gives himself without measure to those who are born of Him! Have you ever seen a partial horse born -- it was part horse and part cat? Crazy. The same is true spiritually. And most Christians will tell you that you will, when being born again, have two natures. But that is crazy. That is the epitome of doublemindedness! They state that you will have two minds! Ever wonder why they have so much sin? God told us why: they are double minded. And God told us that they will speak of things that they don't understand, and lead many astray. Again, God knew what he was talking about when he said these things. Also, God said that Christ is the only way to see God. Christ stated that he is the ONLY door by which mankind enters into the kingdom of God. Then Christ stated that many would seek to enter through that door, but would not actually enter in. What an incredible statement! Was he messing with our minds, or what?! No, he was telling us what it was going to be like, stating that there would be many, yes, MANY false teachers of God. And we have seen almost 2000 years of God's word being proven true in all of these things, and it's no different today: many seek to enter through Christ, but they consider it heresy, and their life proves it to be true for them. What a tragedy! And God has clearly stated that you can't use them and their failings and hypocrisy as an excuse, either. So don't even bother to try that one on God -- he can see right through you. He's way, way smarter than that! That one doesn't even cut it with our moms, does it: "But he told me I could!" Doesn't work with our moms or dads or teachers. So why on earth would we think that God is dumber than them? You're way smarter than to try that one, or you wouldn't have had these questions!

The last question, why do we pray to Jesus? Again, only the spiritual inept and blind pray to Jesus. Christ himself stated "this is how you should pray: our Father, who is in heaven...." And we have many scritpures which state that whatever we ask God in Christ's name, he will grant us, for we can only ask in Christ's name that which is in line with the will of God, just as Christ was. So we have all of the scritpures state that we are to pray to God, and NOT to Christ, but so many still do. Nothing surprising there. We have been warned in the scriptures that it would be this way.

So you have had a number of good observations. My hat's off to you. You are closer to the kingdom of heaven than many who profess to be already in it, or at the very least, to be going there. But then again, Christ said that very thing to the spiritual dudes of his time, didn't he! It seems that mankind hasn't changed, has it? God hasn't either.

We must come to God and confess our sins, and repent, and believe on God through Jesus Christ. And then go to God and be taught of Him, not by man. And He will teach you "all things pertaining to godliness and holiness", and will give you His mind, and you will indeed be victorious over sins. Anything else deserves complete damnation by God. And rightly so.

And as God said elsewhere, "I have set before you both life and death. Choose life, and live!" And elsewhere, "O taste and see, that God is good!" And elsewhere, "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you." And elsewhere, "no man comes to the Father, but by me", spoken by Christ Himself.

Repent. Turn to God, believe His word alone, and he will make you new, and completely so! Anything less than that is a sham: don't buy their snake oil. Only God has the real deal. Turn to Him alone.
 

JohnDB

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Ever hear of a "Wurd"? (I can't get the two dots over my "u"...

That would be more in line with what was intended than "Word" (spoken words that contain the essence of the speaker of the words..."living word")

and yes...the Word became flesh....meaning Jesus....the God/man.
He was the Light of Men
Let there be light....(from Genesis)
The plan for our salvation was made before the first foundations of the earth were put into place.

Jesus was fully God and fully man...
Only begotten...fancy way of saying that he was born and raised...and was an only child. There is only one God...

and as far as Jesus being all of God....not possible...God is infinite. That is why He is referred to as the Son of God.

The reason He was born was to hang out with us on a day to day level....get to know his creation from our standpoint...feel pain and surprise and shock and joy and all that fun stuff. Do things just as we do...
And then while He lived a perfect life he became a sacrifice for us.

Something that science cannot prove with empirical evidence is a state of being called Holy.
What Holy refers to is not just intended for special, religious use...but perfect and pure. And the more holy something is the more active reaction it will have to error should it be encountered.

God is the Holiest of the Holiest of the Holy....a level of purity so grand that it is unfathomable....but it also makes him more gooder than you can imagine as well....

Because God made this earth and it's natural laws the Earth is holy. We are the only part of God's creation that defies it's creator by not doing as we were commanded long ago....as such the Earth and universe at large seeks to exact it's revenge in fury. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what is needed to quell that fury. (God won't break his own laws)
And God did it on our behalf for those that truly love him and don't just give him lip service or love him because of what He can do for you.
 

SaberTruth

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[font="tahoma][size="2"]
and as far as Jesus being all of God....not possible...God is infinite. That is why He is referred to as the Son of God.
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[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"]Um... [/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Colossians 2:9 [/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form[/size][/font]
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Surf Rider

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Dec 17, 2009
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in the kingdom of heaven right now
[font="tahoma][size="2"][/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"]Um... [/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Colossians 2:9 [/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]??[/size][/font]


um... if Christ is in you, does that make you Christ???

um... if God has given his spirit to you without measure, (all the fullness of him), does that make you the Spirit???

Selective logic is a hallmark of error.
 

SaberTruth

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um... if Christ is in you, does that make you Christ???

um... if God has given his spirit to you without measure, (all the fullness of him), does that make you the Spirit???

Selective logic is a hallmark of error.

If you can call my logic 'selective', I can call yours an outright fallacy. And look at Col. 1:15-20:

[sup][/sup]
[sup]15[/sup] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [sup]17[/sup] He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [sup]18[/sup] And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [sup]19[/sup] For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [sup]20[/sup] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.



There are plenty of others as well that show Jesus to be fully God. And even in Col. 2:9 it doesn't say Jesus merely had the Spirit in Him, but that all the fullness of God lives in Him in bodily form. That is, He is the embodiment of the Godhead, not merely just another man with the Spirit. To say Jesus is anything less than fully God is actually blasphemy because He Himself made it quite clear. We also have Paul's words in Phil. 2:5-11:
[sup]5[/sup] In your relationships with one another, have the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had: [sup]6[/sup] Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


[sup]7[/sup] rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature
of a servant,
being made in human likeness.


[sup]8[/sup] And being found in appearance as a human being,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


[sup]9[/sup] Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,


[sup]10[/sup] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,


[sup]11[/sup] and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,


to the glory of God the Father.



And Isaiah 9:6--
[sup]6[/sup] For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 

Surf Rider

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you quote this: 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

v. 15 was already dealt with in my previous post. You did nothing to deal with it. Please do so.
v.16 God created all things in him. That makes it God doing it in him, which does not make him God, but other than God, for God did it in him. If God does a work in you, are you God? Same logic that you have applied here. You need to quit having selective logic that twists scripture to fit your beliefs. God created all things through him, and for him. Sin entered the world through Adam. What does that make Adam with your logic? Interesting result.
v.17 Same as the previous.
v.18 he is the head of the body. Does that make him the body? It does, with your logic. Again, we see that you have very, very, very selective logic that contradicts itself in the very verses that you mangle with your selective logic. Does it also make him the church? Shall I give a whole slug of verses that clarify this for you, or do you not know them? If you know them, why do you deny them with your logic? Firstborn from the dead. That means that others follow after him in this. Thus, they are co-with him in this. This does not make him God, or it also makes us God. You have selective logic on this portion also.

Seems to be a habit and recurring event with you in this errant belief, Sabertooth. He has the supremacy. And if that's not understood, try Hebrews, where it states that God put everything under him, and it is very clear to common sense that God is excepted: God is still over Christ. How can God be over himself? Novel. Bi-polar? Are you over yourself, and in subjection to yourself at the same time?
v. 19 God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him. Does that make him God? God has given us his spirit without measure. Does that make us God? It does by your logic. Again, this contradicts your beliefs, Saber, unless you have been taught to have selective logic that denies almost every statement that you use for your beliefs. Kind of like the pretribers, the homosexual Christians, etc..
v. 20 For there is no other name under heaven, by which we must be saved. That makes no statement to godhood, but to atonement. Don't add to it. The scriptures warn us about that.


We already dealt with 2:9. As it states elsewhere, "he is the express [exact] image of God". Why didn't it state that he was God? To state that he is the exact image of God is to state that he is a replica: he is not God, but an image of God so that we can see what God is truly like. Simple. And Christ taught this, didn't he?!!! "If you've seen me, you've seen the father. I and the father are one." And he then proceeds to state that just as he and the Father are one, we and the Father are one. Ooooh. Good on, Lord. Then he also states that just as he and the Father are one, he and us are one. Another good one, Lord! That would make us God too! And repeatedly so! Not. Obviously, your selective logic is problematic with all of the scriptures, even the ones that you quote. And then Christ stated that just as the Father is in him, the Father is in us. Does that make us God? It does by your logic.

You need to quit picking and choosing statements. Accept them all, and they must all fit with the same logic, or they are errant. Even a child understands this. If I talk about chair with multiple, different meanings, there's an obvious problem: "Son, go set the chair for dinner, and make sure that you set enough chairs for everyone to sin on. And please heat up the beans, so turn the chair on high so that they cook quickly." Goofy. And that's what you've done in this instance, or we have scripture making some really, really silly statements! Any person trained for debate understands this, for it is a most simple aspect, a foundation that cannot be ignored without rampant foolishness following hard after it. Even high school debaters understand this. It would behoove us to do the same thing with basic spiritual truths. Even basic communcation demands this aspect, or we are spewing forth nonsense. And Paul even used this analogy. Common sense stuff here. Even three year olds hold to the same meaning for things. Communication demands this, or it cannot happen at all. There is only one other option, and that option is not of God, nor are the conclusions of such. Satan did the same thing: selective logic applied to the word of God. And just look at the lovely results he got by doing that.

You even state it with your own words: Christ had a human body. Cool. And thus, the spiritual attributes of God where placed into that body, abiding in it. Scripture stated that quite well, didn't it! You twist it to state that God said that Christ was God. We even have this in the scripture: the word of God abides in us. Does that make us God? It does by your logic. And take the word, "word", which everyone just loves: logos. By your logic, Saber, God is clearly stating that we are also God! Same word, even: logos. Please explain this to us, and please use scripture also. Thanks.

So let's look at your next scripture: . 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Good one. "have this mind in you, which was in Christ Jesus." If that makes Christ God, that makes us God too. We have what he had. The bible states it. You deny it. You have selective logic. Your belief doesn't fit the scriptures anywhere yet. Interesting.
Next it states, "which is yours in Christ". We have the mind of Christ, just in case you don't believe that. Or live it. But if we don't live it, then we don't have it. Or Christ lied to us on that one, too. This statement also, with your logic, makes us God, just as it makes Christ God. Please explain this one for us also.

And there are many scirptures which state that we are in Christ. I'm sure that you know them. They all state that we are God, to hold your logic. NOT!

"though he was in the form of God." Good one, from God, which denies your conclusions yet again. And just what is the form of God? If we are co-heirs with Christ, born of God, not of this world but of the heavenly kingdom, etc., there is a problem with your beliefs and logic selectively applied to God's word. Scripture also states that we "are partakers of the divine nature". We partake of the form of God also, for God is spirit, and those born of God are born of Spirit, and we must be born of spirit, (born again, as Christ taught this so clearly to Nicodemus), or we will not see God. By your logic applied to this statement of being in the form of God, we are also God. Scripture states that Satan takes on different forms. Does that make him that, instead of Satan? Hardly. The very words, "take on the form" means that such is not that form, so therefore takes it on, or "wears" it: it does not change what that one inherently is. That's the very reason to take on the form of something else. Kind of like "wolves in sheeps' clothing". Does that make the wolf a sheep? Hardly. In fact, it futher proves that it is a sheep, for that's the very reason it needed to take on the appearance, the form of something else! You have a logic that denies so many scritpures, it is most amazing. Read them without your indoctrination of man, and just accept the common dictionary meanings. And the whole of the scriptures fit together quite perfectly. No surprise there.

If we have the same mind of Christ, and that same mind is that which had the form of God, then we are God. The scriptures state this conclusion: we have the mind of Christ, just as he was in the form of God. Your logic makes us God. That doesn't fit the very scriptures that you try to appropriate for your errant, selective, scripture and dictionary defying logic, Saber. Next, the mind of Christ counted not equality with God a thing to be grasped. You are to have that same mind of Christ, God said. Are you then God? Hardly. (Or was God lieing to us on that one also! Or is He just messing with our little minds? Or is He actually, clearly conveying a foundational truth? I hold that it is the latter.) This again proves your logic and conclusions on this doctrine to be fully wrong.

Next, he made himself nothing. So God is nothing? New one to me. Took on the form of man. Again, this is getting very repetitious, almost to the point of tedium. The point should be amply clear by now: no matter what scripture is looked at, they do not state that Christ was God, or we are God less than he is.

Please deal with the phrases, and explain them for us.

Continuing on in that passage which you gave... 8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Again, he was born of a woman, born of a virgin. Human body. Spirit from God. Everybody states this in their Christmas plays, for it is a basic. As a man he died on the cross. The body died. That isn't debated except by those who deny the truth. You fully accept it. That makes no statement as to his being God, but is dealing with his physicality, his humanity, his body.

v. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,

God exalted Christ. If president Obama exalts you to a high position, does that make you president Obaman? I don't think so! So why does this suddenly make Christ God, simply by God exalting Christ? Again, you have a faulty logic that if held true, makes us God also, for we will reign with him! Or do you deny those scriptures as well as the many others mentioned already? Yet again, we see that you twist it to say that which defies dictionary definitions (as discussed regarding that being a hallmark of cults on different thread, in oder to bolster their errant beliefs, for without it, their beliefs cannot stand up!), and we see that your logic applied to this verse makes us God also.

v.10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;

It is in his name that every knee shall bow. Good one again by God, for if holding your logic for a verse that you quote after these, that makes everyone God. To be in the name of someone, does not make you that someone! Or are our nation's ambassadors actually the United States of America? The answer is obvious almost to the point of being silly. Let's not be that way with scripture, please. If every knee bows in Christ's name, then every knee is God. Fits right in with God having wings, as stated in the old testament. Or God having feathers, as stated in the old testament. Why didn't Christ have wings and feathers, then? And if everyone, damned alike, bow in Christ's name, they are Christ, by your logic. That is obviously not a good logic, friend. They are thereby God. Please explain this for us.

v. 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again, Christ is lord, God is God, the father. A difference is stated here. Perhaps we should see this. Is this getting repetitious for anybody else here?


Ah. And here's another juicy one that creates a problem for Christ being God. I just love it. Thanks for supplying it for us....
6 For to us a child is born, Everybody knows that one: remember the manger, shepherds in the fields at night, etc.? That didn't make him God. That proved that he was human. Intesting.

to us a son is given, Son of God. Not God. Son of God. Of God. Not God. We are born of God. We are NOT God. Simple. Christ explained this to Nicodemus, for he couldn't understand it either. I suggest you go to God and ask him to explain it for you. He likes doing that for us. "Call on him...." He'll do it for all of us... "ask, seek, knock". God never lies. "If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God...." You call yourself a son of God. Does that make you God? You blasphemer, to call yourself a son of God! Even a child understands that truth. I have a few sons. Nobody at all states that they are actually me: they all know that even though they came from me, and that they have my name, they are not me: they are the sons: I am the father. Same with God and Christ. This is why Christ stated that God, GOD was greater than Christ! Christ always stated that they were different, that God was greater, and that Christ was the perfect son. We are sons, partakers of the divine nature, born of God himself, given the Spirit (God is Spirit, and there is only one God), so we have God without measure, for we are born of him, just like Christ, for scriptures state repeatedly that Christ was our forerunner in ALL things. Yes, ALL. But you deny that with your logic. If Christ was God, then we are too! Turn to any scritpure that you want to, Saber, and it will show that your belief is wrong, as the logic applied to them cannot be true for most of them, or we are all God. Sounds strickingly familiar to Satan's lie. We should be very, very leery of a belief that makes us God himself, instead of making of spirit of spirit, as Christ taught, which means that we are the sons of God. Just like Christ, the firstborn of MANY brethren! It's been staring us in the face, but I, just like you Saber, was raised to believe that which flies in the face of every scripture which speaks about it, and denies basic dictionary definitions, and denies basic logic applied to them all..

and the government will be on his shoulders. Cool. Government on his shoulders. Does that make him God? Who says? That's a stretch, if ever there was one! We will reign with him... thus the government is on our shoulders also. Does that make us God? By your logic, yes it does. Bad logic, obviously. We will rule with him. We have even been given the keys to the kingdom. Does that make us God? Please explain this one also.

And he will be called We already dealt with what being called signifies: it does not signify being that thing. We "are called sons of the Most High", the bible states. We are then God! Nope. Do not have selective logic, Saber.

Wonderful Counselor, That, too, does not make Christ God. Simple to the point of laborious to mention these things.

Mighty God, Ah. That's the kicker, isn't it! You got us there, didn't you! All the other scriptures are wrong, and this one is right. Cool. Well, not cool. How is it that so many scritpures are bluntly clear, even with common dictionary definitions, and then we have one little bit that throws them all into the garbage can? Obviously, that can't be the case. So we must come to a conclusion: either this statement is correct and all the rest are misunderstood, even to the point of being quite contradictory to basics of logic and language, or our understanding of this one which flies in the face of the hundreds, is incorrect. I posit that the second is the only acceptable conclusion. So let's look at the scriptures, and see if they can possibly shed any light on this one for us. Again, he is CALLED mighty God. The scriptures state repeatedly that the physical is given first, so that the spiritual can be seen by those who are taught by God, and the rest will not see it. Pretty exclusive statement, right? Yes it is. And it is only correct when it is correct: all other times it is not of God. Even the apostles stated this: they do not know God, and we know this because they do not believe what we say. So it's true, or God lied to us a bunch of times. So we see in the scriptures many examples of Christ and God, and a prime one, which everyone sees, is Joseph. And the Pharoah stated that Joseph had the rule and authority over everything. Everything. Pharoah was over Joseph only in the throne, ie, Pharaoh was still top dog, still the supreme authority, but he had given all of his authority to Joseph. Hebrews states this spiritual truth about Christ, which I already mentioned. The result is clear, whether looking at the OT, the NT, the blunt spiritual statements, or the physical examples given by God to portray the spiritual so that the carnally minded might be able to figure it out also. So agian, we see that God gave him his authority: all of it, so Christ is called the head, the leader, and everyone bows to him, and he runs absolutely everything. God is only God in regard to the supreme head: Christ is the fullness of God revealed to man, the "express image", so that we can see what God is like. Already dealt with this with scriptures. There's lot's of them for this one.

So again, this is seen by scripture to not be able to state that Christ is God. Sorry. You missed out on this juicy one too, but God just doesn't leave room for your logic and conclusions, Saber.

Everlasting Father, Repetition is meaningless at this point. (And as an aside, check out which manuscripts have that in it, and which ones don't. Intersting information.)

Prince of Peace. Repetitition is meaningless at this point.

So let's look at some more scripture, Saber:

Elohim called them Elohim, to whom the word of Elohim came. Christ stated this. And he messed with the carnal understanding of the spiritual leaders. So, good Sabertooth, if you could be so kind as to explain this passage in Psalm 82, and Christ's clear statement of what it was saying, with scritpures, it would be cool. Thanks.

Until then, are you capable of speaking up on this topic? It would be doubtful. So please use scripture to explain this for us all.

And use scripture to explain this one also: "partakers of the divine nature",
and this one: "God is spirit.... you must be born of spirit"
and this one: "we are given the spirit without measure",
and "you must be born again",
and "he who is born of God does not sin, for God's seed [Christ is also God's seed, so again, that would make us God also, with your logic!], remains in him, and he cannot sin", and other passages like these.

I've listed some of them already in my previous post. You didn't deal with any of them, either by scripture or without scripture -- you simply ignored all of them and stated that they and I are full of heresy. Unacceptable approach. Even in the secular world, we are not allowed to deal with things in this manner, for truly, it is not dealng with them at all! And obviously so.. Until you can deal with them, please refrain from further posts on this topic, as you are revealed to not have an understanding of very blunt scriptures which contradicy your beliefs. That is not a good thing for anyone to do, myself included.

Let us demand at least a low level of dealing with scriptures. Without even that, how can anything profitable or proper be arrived at by anyone?

If Christ was God, how was he made perfect by external things? Please explain. Scripture would be helpful.

If Christ was God, how come he had to grow in wisdom? Please explain. Scripture would be helpful.

God cannot be tempted by evil, neither tempts he any man. So if Christ is God, how on earth was it possible for him to be tempted by Satan? Please explain. Scripture would be helpful.

If Christ doesn't know everything, and God knows everything, how is it that Christ is God? Please explain. Scripture would be helpful.

If Christ has power given to him, how is it that he is God, for nobody gives anything to God, let alone power! Please explain. Scripture would be helpful.

If Christ said that those who do his will are his brothers, and sisters, and even mothers, that makes them just as he is. How is he then God, for we must then be God also! Please explain. Scripture would be helpful.

Shall I go on?

That would be pointless. You need to at least go through the scritpures presented herein, and deal with them for all of us to see. Until then, you are merely being an octopus and putting out an ink cloud to hide your vulnerabilites. That only works for the ignorant: everyone else sees it for what it is, and isn't fooled by it.

I'm looking forward to your actually going through these few scriptures that I presented, and proving them word by word, and with scripture. And I look forward to any other scriptures that you come up with, going through them for us also.

Thanks.

Have a great week.
 

SaberTruth

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v. 15 was already dealt with in my previous post. You did nothing to deal with it. Please do so.

It speaks for itself, in context; that's why I gave context. And you've got a lousy attitude I'll mention again later.

v.16 God created all things in him. That makes it God doing it in him, which does not make him God, but other than God, for God did it in him. If God does a work in you, are you God? Same logic that you have applied here. You need to quit having selective logic that twists scripture to fit your beliefs. God created all things through him, and for him. Sin entered the world through Adam. What does that make Adam with your logic? Interesting result.
v.17 Same as the previous.

When God = Him, then the statement simply says so. Your "logic" (I use the term loosely) here is circular: you must presume Jesus is not God before you interpret. Let scripture teach you instead of you trying to put words in God's mouth. And sin entering the world through Adam simply means he opened the door, being the first.

v.18 he is the head of the body. Does that make him the body? It does, with your logic. Again, we see that you have very, very, very selective logic that contradicts itself in the very verses that you mangle with your selective logic. Does it also make him the church? Shall I give a whole slug of verses that clarify this for you, or do you not know them? If you know them, why do you deny them with your logic? Firstborn from the dead. That means that others follow after him in this. Thus, they are co-with him in this. This does not make him God, or it also makes us God. You have selective logic on this portion also.

Logic... to quote a movie line, "You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means." You don't seem to grasp normal language usage, let alone logic. "Head of the body" simply means "the head that goes with the body", but you'd like to make "of" mean the same thing in all grammatical situations, as if you just learned English yesterday. Shall I give you lessons in elementary communication? I could go on insulting you as you have insulted me.

In fact, rather than wade through your book-length post repeating your same poor grammar and poorer logic, I'll just put you and your attitude on ignore. I'm here to talk to reasonable people, not fight with ignorant bullies.

Have a great week.

I certainly will, with you on ignore. You too. ;-)


 

Surf Rider

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Again Sabertruth refuses to actually go through scripture. There is a reason for this. If I'm the problem, go through scripture and show that I've got the problem with the scripture.

The reason that I showed no compassion was that Sabertruth dismisses things with a wave of the hand, refusing to deal with the scriptures, or to even go through statements and deal with them. Such people have a cavalier dismisal of anything that can show them to be in error. As such, they are not open to correction or the truth. That might happen at some time, but not right now, obviously.

Until then, one simply shows that they are too ignorant and vulnerable to deal with things.

The other option is that it is such a basic, they don't consider it worthwhile to deal with it.

I can't assume the latter, as the basis for the former was self shown by Saber to be lacking.

Perhaps it is a good thing when one who can't support their position, but can only dismiss others that disagree with them, not able to use scripture to refute them, perhaps it is a good thing when they no longer post on such a topic.

It is also a good thing when such are weeded out -- then those who are willing to analyse scripture and personal statements so as to correct or be corrected, can have a profitable time together.

So many like to quote the scripture "as iron sharpens iron". That's friction. That takes going back and forth between, so as to work off that which needs working off.

I did think about my post before posting it, and considered that it had a harsh attitude. Yet I thought it appropriate due to Saber's outright dismisall of basic linquistics and definitions of words in the dictionary, and thus of everything anyone says to the contrary of his twisted beliefs on this topic. If I was wrong, my apologies. Sabertruth's lack of juxtaposing is problematic, to say the least.

If one refuses to discuss scripture, or statements, then why bother even posting? No iron sharpening can occur, no dialogue can occur, if one is not willing to go through the scritpures and compare them, and compare how we view/interpret them and simply ask that we hold the same principles of deduction throughout them.

If all a person does is state that others are wrong, and then give a few verses for this statement, but is unwilling to go through those verses or the verses that others post, that is like a brat throwing a communication fit. Unacceptable, and I have little to no tolerance of such, especially in adults. They need a verbal spanking, and I gave it.

I at least went through Sabertruth's statements and verses. Saber has yet to do that with anyone's post on this topic.

I put forth to the other posters, that this reveals the attitude/understanding of Saber in this topic to be based wrongly. Even if Saber's postition is correct, the understanding is lacking and the willingness to express the understanding isn't there, either. Of course.

So I find that I have no option but to rebuke this also, for it is not right. If one is going to throw their hat into the ring on a topic, they better be prepared to have it dirtied, be corrected, rebuked, admonished, encouraged, strengthened. Without that, what's the point!

Anyone who disagrees with my analysis of Sabers' statements and the scriptures presented, please do go through them and show how I was in error, either by basic grammar or dictionary definitions, sentence structure, syntax, accidence, etc., or merely by doing as the word states: comparing scripture with scripture. I am willing to learn from anyone. But that means that they must be able to do the basics, and be able to hold their own -- without throwing a tizzy fit and walking away without any critique or analysis given of the word of God. This entails using proper methods that do not negate the data given to us, grammar, sentence structure, syntax, etc., or even basic word meanings -- holding the same throughout. Simple, really. Thanks.

Have a good week.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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who has time to read all this?
 

archaeologist5

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look for the *************

Here, you always talk about

The word. is it
= God ,or
=Christ , or
=bible , or
=trinity , or
all of them , or
some ?

*********all of the Bible is refered to as God's word(s) because they are.

why you always describe Jesus as a word?

********Not as 'a' word but 'the' word and you find that God mde that comparison in John 1:1

You describe jesus as begotton ?

*************again, God described jesus as 'begotten' christians are merely repeating it as they learned it from Him.

why he is only begotton, although another prophet is also said to be so in your book ?

***********do not know. thatis information we are not privy to nor is it germane to salvation. the fact that he is, is.

What do you mean by begotton exactly ( just 'chosen one' )?

************again, we do not know unless God has revealed it in the Bible we will never know till after we die. there are some mysteries we will not have the answer towhile we live for our minds would not be able to comprehend the data.

he was a human baby, so why do you still want to beleive he is God ?

***************because He had to become flesh to fulfill His purpose in life for God's creation. He gave us an example to follow and showed that God's ways could be met by humans with the help of the Holy Spirit.

why are you always pray to jesus and not God in the heavens ?

***********no man cometh unto the father save through Jesus Christ. we go to Jesus first, that is our access to God.