If they are not following Christ they will fall when Christ sends His two prophets to shut down the world and send neighbor against neighbor brother against brother and the eagles against His rebellious Church.
Speculating on ... "the lie" ... (endtimes)
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His church isn't and will never be in a state of end-time rebellion. The two witnesses will be preaching to Muslim's. Not Christians. The rebellion, otherwise known as the end-time apostasy, is what's taking place as we speak in Syria, Egypt, and throughout the Arab/Muslim world.zhavoney said:
The void created by the current Mid-East revolt is what will cause the emergence of the man of sin!
That's the whole point its not his church!kaotic profit said:
The ignorance is incredible, really, and vey short sighted.
John 1:11 puts you in your place....not only did they not receive him they killed him!
Hmmm what of his second coming?????
What does the Ram represent? And why not a lamb to fit the symbol of Christ and the Words of Abraham?Retrobyter said:
"God will provide for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son"
You say the Ram has not allegorical significance let alone its horns.
In your answer I am looking for you to make the spiritual connection between the Ram and the Lord Jesus Christ; if you cannot or better "will not" we can be certain of your spirit.
Purity
The man of sin and the antichrist were here in Saint johns time as he clearly states in first and second John. The two witnesses shut up the heaven so that no rain falls on the earth for three and a half years. They turn all water supplies to blood and torment those who dwell on the earth. They are only sent to Gods house no one else. God's house are those who claim to follow Christ. They are sent with the measuring tool that will test the faith of those who claim Christ.kaotic profit said:
Rev 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
10 ---- because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Purity.
OT:352 'ayil (ah'-yil); from the same as OT:193; properly, strength; hence, anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:
KJV - mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Genesis 15:1-21
1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram (Hebrew: 'ayil) of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV
This is the first occurrence of that word in the Bible.
Genesis 22:11-18
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram (Hebrew: 'ayil) caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (Hebrew: YHWH yireh meaning "YHWH it-(provision)-is-seen"): as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen (Hebrew: yeeraa'eh meaning "it-shall-be-seen," same word with different tense).
15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
KJV
The ram ('ayil) was a REMINDER TO AVRAM OF GOD'S PROMISE TO AVRAM, NOT to us! Ultimately, it DOES refer to the Messiah (Christ) because He is the "seed" of Avram THROUGH Yitschaq (Isaac), his son, but there was a more immediate need for a ram - to remind Avram of YHWH'S promise to give him an heir! REMEMBER: Avram believed God and it was counted as righteousness, as far as God was concerned.
P.S. - I should have also mentioned that "lamb" in Genesis 22:7-8 is the Hebrew word "seh" (actually "haseh" meaning "THE flock-animal") which is just the generic form of ANY flock animal, no matter the age:
OT:7716 seh (seh); or sey (say); probably from OT:7582 through the idea of pushing out to graze; a member of a flock, i.e. a sheep or goat:
KJV - (lesser, small) cattle, ewe, goat, lamb, sheep. Compare OT:2089.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
The answer is in the word "'ayil":Purity said:
OT:352 'ayil (ah'-yil); from the same as OT:193; properly, strength; hence, anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:
KJV - mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Genesis 15:1-21
1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram (Hebrew: 'ayil) of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV
This is the first occurrence of that word in the Bible.
Genesis 22:11-18
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram (Hebrew: 'ayil) caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (Hebrew: YHWH yireh meaning "YHWH it-(provision)-is-seen"): as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen (Hebrew: yeeraa'eh meaning "it-shall-be-seen," same word with different tense).
15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
KJV
The ram ('ayil) was a REMINDER TO AVRAM OF GOD'S PROMISE TO AVRAM, NOT to us! Ultimately, it DOES refer to the Messiah (Christ) because He is the "seed" of Avram THROUGH Yitschaq (Isaac), his son, but there was a more immediate need for a ram - to remind Avram of YHWH'S promise to give him an heir! REMEMBER: Avram believed God and it was counted as righteousness, as far as God was concerned.
P.S. - I should have also mentioned that "lamb" in Genesis 22:7-8 is the Hebrew word "seh" (actually "haseh" meaning "THE flock-animal") which is just the generic form of ANY flock animal, no matter the age:
OT:7716 seh (seh); or sey (say); probably from OT:7582 through the idea of pushing out to graze; a member of a flock, i.e. a sheep or goat:
KJV - (lesser, small) cattle, ewe, goat, lamb, sheep. Compare OT:2089.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Sorry I am missing the connection between the Ram - - > Seed of Abraham - - > Yahwehs PromiseRetrobyter said:
You see I am looking for your understanding as to why a Ram? Why not a goat, lamb or a pigeon?
Purity
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Purity.
In reality, how should I know? Am I God? Ultimately, that's GOD'S business, not mine! I wasn't responsible for putting that ram in the thicket! GOD WAS! So, if you REALLY want to know why God chose the ram, ASK HIM! Go ahead, ASK Him, if you think He'll answer you! However, don't be surprised if He doesn't answer. Ultimately, it's not YOUR business, any more than it's mine! HE chose that animal to be the substitute for Yitschaq, the son of promise, and He answers to NO ONE!
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Take them or leave them; you are master of your choice. I haven't known too many that consider my words favorably here. I think I might just try a couple of different forums and see if there's some place better. I'm weary of this forum.
Well, because that's the only other time you see the word in the recorded life of Avraham. I would think that the 'ayil-ram had some significance to Avraham. It's the one animal of the five that were sacrificed in the b'rit-covenant that God made with Avraham closest in size to that of his son Yitschaq. But don't go by my word; I'm just guessing at some possibilities.Purity said:
In reality, how should I know? Am I God? Ultimately, that's GOD'S business, not mine! I wasn't responsible for putting that ram in the thicket! GOD WAS! So, if you REALLY want to know why God chose the ram, ASK HIM! Go ahead, ASK Him, if you think He'll answer you! However, don't be surprised if He doesn't answer. Ultimately, it's not YOUR business, any more than it's mine! HE chose that animal to be the substitute for Yitschaq, the son of promise, and He answers to NO ONE!
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Take them or leave them; you are master of your choice. I haven't known too many that consider my words favorably here. I think I might just try a couple of different forums and see if there's some place better. I'm weary of this forum.
Are you teachable?Retrobyter said:
Why the Ram?
Well a ram is the protector of the flock; the Hebrew word signifies strength.
Does strength and being a protector of the flock identify the Ram with the Lord Jesus Christ?
Notice the ram was sacrificed as a result of his horns being caught in the a thicket.
- This typifies how the future Lamb of God would be helplessly caught in the redemptive work of mankind - not his decision to be born of a woman, but certainly his flesh nature caused him to be put to death (to destroy the power of sin) as an atoning sacrifice for the people. It was his misfortune that he was born into condemnation, as it is ours - do you have any say in your nature? Neither did he! The horns here than represent the very thing which ensnared Christ on the Cross.
1. Human nature - Body and Blood
2. The Power and Authority of his Kingship in that he was crucified as "King of the Jews"
Horns represent power and authority and it was this power and authority which was duly his which caused his death.
Mark 15:12,26
Another Bible principle reveals both Isaac and the ram represent Christ, true enough! Conjointly they show the Lord as saved by his own sacrifice (Heb 13:20).
There is also another aspect of the Ram and allegorically speaking to the High Priest but if you cannot accept in part the above then the High Priest and Ram will probably not be understood.
Purity
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Purity.
Of course, but God has already taught me much, and He's lead me down a path such that ALL of the things I've learned dove-tail together without any discrepancy whatsoever. And, it has become a unit of teaching to which I must ADD because I KNOW that what I've already learned makes so much sense and answers so many questions and interweaves so thoroughly, that it would be ridiculous to change any of it! In fact, IF any of it were to change, it would stand out like the proverbial "sore thumb!"
But, there's a WEALTH of knowledge that God can teach us, step by step, day by day, and I'm ALWAYS learning new things about God's Word! And, every new thing I learn amazes me more and more how it fits with rest of what I've already learned!
This is just a mathematic example to give one a picture of what I'm talking about: Say the fraction 1/3 represents a circle with three points on that circle spaced evenly apart (3), and a line drawn to the next point on that circle (1). Then 1/3 would produce an equilateral triangle. 1/4 would produce a square, 1/5 would produce a pentagon, etc.
Now, let's change the numerator to a different number, say 2 for "draw a line to the second point from where you currently are," and keep the 5 in the denominator. This would be the fraction 2/5 and would produce a five-pointed star. We're going to restrict this to numbers < 1/2 because AT 1/2, it degenerates to just a line - the diameter of the circle, and beyond 1/2 (like 3/5) it would only draw the shapes backwards.
There's some AMAZING stars possible as one gets more and more irreducible fractions < 1/2! We know that 1/8 would give us an octagon. 2/8 would give us a square (because it reduces to 1/4), but 3/8 gives us a very uniform, 8-pointed star!
1/9 is a nonagon. 2/9 is a wide-pointed star. 3/9 is reducible to 1/3 so it is just a triangle, but 4/9 is another sharp-pointed star!
Have you ever drawn a star with 39 points based on the fraction 14/39? It's BEAUTIFUL! I've made no changes to the fraction-star relationship, but I've increased the complexity by learning new irreducible fractions!
Now consider finding that there are a myriad of truths in the Bible, and imagine their total count to be the denominator of the ultimate fraction! I literally stumbled onto some truths in the Bible back at the beginning (after I had discarded all the old teachings I had been taught when I was going through a disillusioned, dark time in my past), but I stuck to what I KNEW was the truth. I KNEW, for instance, that God had "saved me from my sin" (I was already justified by God), and I knew that God was therefore real and that He would want to communicate with human beings whom He loved. Those were my first three out of this myriad of points around the circle. I BATHED everything I was attempting to learn in prayer to God for His continuing wisdom. I then learned to TEST EVERYTHING someone would try to teach me by weighing it against the truths of God's Word, and I learned early on that if I was going to be specific in the understanding of the details in God's Word, I was going to HAVE to learn the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, and the points on my circle were starting to fill in. With each new point, it was AMAZING how it would tie together with all the already-existing points on the circle! New information would just fit right in place, like pieces in a puzzle.
Would YOU be "teachable" to arbitrary teachings that, at this point, would be obviously something that won't fit in to such an elaborate, amazing structure of verifiable truths from God's Word?! But, God CONSISTENTLY drops His nuggets of Truth periodically, and it is AWESOME how they will just - pop! - right into place as another equally distant point on that circle and the intricate design as it relates to the other points already on the circle tie into the new point! The star pattern is ever growing and becoming more complex! And EVERYTHING dove-tails into other Truths already discovered from God's Word!
So, yes, I'm teachable ... as teachable as a very picky Berean! The teaching had BETTER measure up to the rest of what I already KNOW about God's Word, based on reliable, verifiable truths from God's Word! If it does, I'll be among the first to "jump on it like a duck on a June bug!"
Last post.Purity said:
Of course, but God has already taught me much, and He's lead me down a path such that ALL of the things I've learned dove-tail together without any discrepancy whatsoever. And, it has become a unit of teaching to which I must ADD because I KNOW that what I've already learned makes so much sense and answers so many questions and interweaves so thoroughly, that it would be ridiculous to change any of it! In fact, IF any of it were to change, it would stand out like the proverbial "sore thumb!"
But, there's a WEALTH of knowledge that God can teach us, step by step, day by day, and I'm ALWAYS learning new things about God's Word! And, every new thing I learn amazes me more and more how it fits with rest of what I've already learned!
This is just a mathematic example to give one a picture of what I'm talking about: Say the fraction 1/3 represents a circle with three points on that circle spaced evenly apart (3), and a line drawn to the next point on that circle (1). Then 1/3 would produce an equilateral triangle. 1/4 would produce a square, 1/5 would produce a pentagon, etc.
Now, let's change the numerator to a different number, say 2 for "draw a line to the second point from where you currently are," and keep the 5 in the denominator. This would be the fraction 2/5 and would produce a five-pointed star. We're going to restrict this to numbers < 1/2 because AT 1/2, it degenerates to just a line - the diameter of the circle, and beyond 1/2 (like 3/5) it would only draw the shapes backwards.
There's some AMAZING stars possible as one gets more and more irreducible fractions < 1/2! We know that 1/8 would give us an octagon. 2/8 would give us a square (because it reduces to 1/4), but 3/8 gives us a very uniform, 8-pointed star!
1/9 is a nonagon. 2/9 is a wide-pointed star. 3/9 is reducible to 1/3 so it is just a triangle, but 4/9 is another sharp-pointed star!
Have you ever drawn a star with 39 points based on the fraction 14/39? It's BEAUTIFUL! I've made no changes to the fraction-star relationship, but I've increased the complexity by learning new irreducible fractions!
Now consider finding that there are a myriad of truths in the Bible, and imagine their total count to be the denominator of the ultimate fraction! I literally stumbled onto some truths in the Bible back at the beginning (after I had discarded all the old teachings I had been taught when I was going through a disillusioned, dark time in my past), but I stuck to what I KNEW was the truth. I KNEW, for instance, that God had "saved me from my sin" (I was already justified by God), and I knew that God was therefore real and that He would want to communicate with human beings whom He loved. Those were my first three out of this myriad of points around the circle. I BATHED everything I was attempting to learn in prayer to God for His continuing wisdom. I then learned to TEST EVERYTHING someone would try to teach me by weighing it against the truths of God's Word, and I learned early on that if I was going to be specific in the understanding of the details in God's Word, I was going to HAVE to learn the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, and the points on my circle were starting to fill in. With each new point, it was AMAZING how it would tie together with all the already-existing points on the circle! New information would just fit right in place, like pieces in a puzzle.
Would YOU be "teachable" to arbitrary teachings that, at this point, would be obviously something that won't fit in to such an elaborate, amazing structure of verifiable truths from God's Word?! But, God CONSISTENTLY drops His nuggets of Truth periodically, and it is AWESOME how they will just - pop! - right into place as another equally distant point on that circle and the intricate design as it relates to the other points already on the circle tie into the new point! The star pattern is ever growing and becoming more complex! And EVERYTHING dove-tails into other Truths already discovered from God's Word!
So, yes, I'm teachable ... as teachable as a very picky Berean! The teaching had BETTER measure up to the rest of what I already KNOW about God's Word, based on reliable, verifiable truths from God's Word! If it does, I'll be among the first to "jump on it like a duck on a June bug!"
I believe to provide some context to our discussion was whether God could use a symbol such as a Ram or a Dragon and apply meaning to it. Your above post did not acknowledge the allegorical worth of Gen 22:7, whereas I can see the Word (and its worth) is full of such examples.Retrobyter said:
Little point in continuing other than concluding that the likeness of the horns on the beast in Rev 13 is symbolic of a religious power, and the four stage development of the beast system makes up a good portion of the Revelation message. In fact, every Word is fitly placed in the book to teach the saints of God to remain separate from the doctrines of men, and this world.
The question:
How can one book contain so much history in advance, written with such clever and consistent symbolism, and still elude the cadre of denomination writers so effectively? How can it be such an elegant expression of heart and spirituality and yet be such a precise, simple, formal construction? It is such because it is what it claims to be: a Revealing of Jesus Christ handed down from THE GOD of the universe through His beloved ONLY DIRECT CREATION who had it encoded FOR HIS SAINTS
Enjoyed the conversation
Purity
Can you answer yes or no to these questions.kaotic profit said:
Is there such a thing as an apostate Jew?
Is there such a things as an apostate Christian?
Now don't feel compelled to explain them at this stage all we are seeking is a yes or a no.
Purity
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