Sudden Hell

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Webers_Home

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So-called "death bed" conversions are a popular topic of discussion; but
what's not so popular are circumstances where there is no death bed to
speak of.

†. Luke 13:4-5 . . And what about the eighteen men who died when a tower
of Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I
tell you again that unless you repent, you will also perish.

The koiné Greek word for "tower" in that passage is purgos (poor'-gos)
which is an ambiguous word that can mean not only an isolated structure
like a skyscraper; but also a special battlement which protrudes from the
face of a castle's curtain wall— consisting of crenellations, merlons, and
machicolations —providing occupants a tactical advantage for observing and
defending the curtain wall's exterior face. Sometimes though, towers were
simply architectural facades that made otherwise insipid stone walls
aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

Unfortunately, in the days prior to steel reinforcing bar and structural steel
beams, purgos (which were often constructed of either stones or bricks)
weren't all that stable, and sometimes crumbled; thus detaching themselves
from the curtain wall like an old swallow's nest; resulting in pieces raining
down on whoever happened to be standing below. The tower of Luke 13:4-5
was possibly a decorative part of an architectural enclosure surrounding the
pool of Siloam. (John 9:7)

The people who were killed when that tower collapsed, weren't killed by the
hand of God. No, they were just simply in the wrong place at the wrong
time; viz: it was just dumb luck. It's like when people plan all month for a
camping trip in the mountains. Upon arrival, they set up camp; and after
lunch, walk a hiking trail. Just then, a tree limb, that's been silently growing
in the forest for who knows how many years, suddenly decides to snap off
and fall to earth right then; subsequently killing one of the campers just as
they walk under it.

One minute earlier and it would have missed. One minute later and it would
have missed. But no, the limb falls right on cue as if the forces of nature and
the stars in their courses conspired to hold that tree limb in place till just the
right moment; waiting for that one specific person to walk under it.

In a similar incident Friday, Feb 19, 2010 —a centuries-old Mosque minaret
in Meknes Morocco collapsed and fell into a crowd of worshippers during
prayer time, killing 41.

Saturday, June 27, 2010, a 6-month-old baby girl was killed and her mother
seriously injured when the pair were struck by a falling tree branch in New
York City's Central Park Zoo. The girl's father was taking their picture near
the sea lion exhibit when a branch above them suddenly snapped off and
fell.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2007; nineteen year-old Ramiro Gonzalez was returning
home to Nyssa Oregon from a week-end honeymoon in northern California
with his bride Idalia asleep in the back seat when their 1997 Pontiac Grand
Am hit a cow twenty miles east of Burns. The Pontiac went off the road,
through a fence, and burst into flames. Idalia escaped with only minor
injuries, but Ramiro died at the Ste. Charles Medical Center in Bend the very
next day.

Ramiro and his bride didn't get to live in a home of their own for even one
single minute of their marriage— never had a baby, never joined the PTA,
never saved for college, never went to ballet lessons, nor to soccer or little
league, never went on family picnics, never took home movies and photos at
Christmas, Easter, or birthdays, never went to the beach and built sand
castles —no, their entire future, and all their dreams of family life, were
shattered in an instant due to a lame-brained bovine; and Ramiro wasn't
even 20 years old yet.

March 20, 2008; fifty-seven year old Judy Kay Zagorski, of Pigeon, Michigan,
was riding in the front seat of her father's boat going 25 knots on the
Atlantic Ocean side of Vaca Key in Florida, when a Spotted Eagle Ray, with a
wingspan of 5 to 6 feet; leaped up out of the water— for who knows what
reason —and collided with Zagorski, knocking her backwards onto the deck
of the boat. She died from the impact. Judy's sister, standing next to her,
wasn't injured.

On a November morning in 1998, Alan Pakula climbed into his Volvo station
wagon and began the 100-mile drive from Manhattan to his Long Island
house. The acclaimed movie director of Sophie's Choice, All The President's
Men, and The Pelican Brief, had made that trip countless times with no
incident.

As the 70 year-old Pakula neared exit 49 on the Long Island Expressway just
before noon, the tires of a vehicle ahead of him flipped a 7-foot piece of
steel rod into the air. Within seconds, the rod shot through Pakula's
windshield, smashing into his forehead, killing him almost instantly.

Death often comes when people least expect it. As a rule, they don't usually
get up in the morning planning it to be their last day on earth. The 169,752
killed, and 127,294 listed as missing, in more than eleven countries by the
tsunami of 2004, were taken by surprise, and given no warning it was to be
their last day on earth.

The 2,829 people who perished in a terrorist attack on the World Trade
Center on September 11, 2001, and the 189 who died in the Pentagon,
didn't go in to work expecting their lives to end before lunch that day. No,
people's lives often end while they still have obligations and commitments,
aspirations, things to do, places to go, and people to see; when a car
accident, train wreck, act of nature, plane crash, crime, heart attack, or
stroke puts an abrupt end to every plan they ever made.

Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010, a 7.0 earthquake struck Port au Prince Haiti right out
of the blue subsequently causing the loss of more than 200,000 lives. A
similar act of nature on March 11, 2011, left 25,000 dead and/or missing in
Japan.

Okeechobee woman Dawn Johnston, 38, was killed Wednesday June 30,
2010 after part of a portable toilet crashed through her car's windshield.
Dawn was driving south on SR 15 shortly after 11 a.m. when two portable
toilets fell from the trailer of a pickup truck traveling north,. The portable
toilets shattered when they hit the road, and a piece of one of them crashed
through the woman's windshield, striking her. Johnston's car then veered off
the road and collided with a tree.

Freak incidents like those listed above can happen to anybody in the form of
a stray bullet from a drive-by, avalanche, bear attack, lightening strike, gas
explosion, choking on a piece of meat, electrocution, earthquake, a drunk
driver, a fall in the bath tub; bricks dropped from an overpass, or any
number of out-of the-blue surprises. I don't think the Lord was saying that
repentance will protect people from dying in an unexpected incident, but
rather, that if they don't start thinking about the afterlife now, while they
have the chance; then they risk being caught off guard by sudden death
where there will be no time to think; and they'll find themselves suddenly
thrust into the afterlife a lot sooner than they ever expected.

Cliff
/
 
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Templar81

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OK, that was enough examples. people die suddenly, probably more than die slowly with plenty of time to forgive their enemies and ask for forgiveness for their own sins.

A person sins and asks God for forgiveness and as long as we are sincere then he will grant it but then he sins again without realising it and cross the road and get run over by a bus.

What then happens?

Here are three possibilities

1. He arrives at the gates of heaven and angels open up books that show he has sinned and not yet repented so God sends us to Hell in a heartbeat just like that even though he was a Christian because no sin can enter heven.

2. it is shown that he has been forgiven before and has been sincere and because he is a believer God discounts that sin and lets him into Heaven even though he couldn't repent of it while he was alive.

3. The it is shwon that he was a believer and has always been sincere about asking for forgiveness for his sins but the sin committed jsut before eath needs to be paid for so God sends him to Purgatory to be cleansed of that sin, since no sin can enter Heaven.

BTW I don't want a Ctholic bashing event, I just made the Purgatory point as a scenario.
 

ttruscott

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Matt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Your contention that death might be just an accident is countered by this verse.

therefore I offer that their death was willed by GOD either
1. as a judgment on their sin
2. as a manifestation of suffering to some other elect to encourage them to seek HIM
3. as a reward to an elect for his holiness by letting him get out of this life of suffering quickly and easily

peace, Ted
 

Webers_Home

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I was taught in catechism that repentance always means sorrow and regret
for one's sins; but I don't think that's what the Lord was getting at.

†. Luke 13:4-5 . . And what about the eighteen men who died when a tower
of Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I
tell you again that unless you repent, you will also perish.

The koiné Greek word for "repent" in the Lord's statement is metanoeo
(met-an-o-eh'-o) which means: to think differently; viz: to reconsider— in
other words: to change one's mind and/or change one's direction.

I was also taught in catechism that repentance and confession of one's sins
are joined at the hip; so to speak. But confession of sins is not the emphasis
in Luke 13:4-5; metanoeo is the emphasis.

The Lord preceded the statement recorded in Luke 13:4-5 with another like
it.

†. Luke 13:1-3 . .There were present at that season some who told Him
about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And
Jesus answered and said to them: Do you suppose that these Galileans were
worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I
tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

The record doesn't explain why Pilate executed those men in particular; nor
even where the executions took place. But just for brevity's sake, I'll
assume for now that those particular men were known insurrectionists,
and the executions took place on the grounds of the Temple compound in
Jerusalem while the men were there to worship. In other words: the men
were taken in a place they would never suspect; and Pilate's soldiers sprung
on the Galileans so suddenly and so efficiently that the men had no chance
to either escape or to defend themselves.

It's at a time like that when your religion of choice had better be the right
one because you'll have neither time nor opportunity to reconsider and
switch to another one.

Cliff
/
 

prism

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OK, that was enough examples. people die suddenly, probably more than die slowly with plenty of time to forgive their enemies and ask for forgiveness for their own sins.

A person sins and asks God for forgiveness and as long as we are sincere then he will grant it but then he sins again without realising it and cross the road and get run over by a bus.

What then happens?

Here are three possibilities

1. He arrives at the gates of heaven and angels open up books that show he has sinned and not yet repented so God sends us to Hell in a heartbeat just like that even though he was a Christian because no sin can enter heven.

2. it is shown that he has been forgiven before and has been sincere and because he is a believer God discounts that sin and lets him into Heaven even though he couldn't repent of it while he was alive.

3. The it is shwon that he was a believer and has always been sincere about asking for forgiveness for his sins but the sin committed jsut before eath needs to be paid for so God sends him to Purgatory to be cleansed of that sin, since no sin can enter Heaven.

BTW I don't want a Ctholic bashing event, I just made the Purgatory point as a scenario.

4. It is shown that Christ on the cross actually died for all his sins including those after conversion.
 

Webers_Home

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4. It is shown that Christ on the cross actually died for all his sins including those
after conversion.

I've encountered a number of people over the years who insist that Christ
paid for all one's sins up to the moment of conversion; but sins
committed afterwards cannot be forgiven until they're confessed. Their
insistence is based upon the statement below:

†. 1John 1:9 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Cliff
/
 

prism

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I wonder how they answer the question, "So a christian needs to be born again...again,again,again"?
 

Templar81

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It is established that Christ died for his sins so we don't need a 4th outcome.because that was played out in scenario 2.

Christ's atonement for sin only covers you if you repent. If you die suddenly without time then how can you repent. The answer is of course that you cannot. Therefore you must likely just burn unless God has mercy on you and since he doesn't play favourites then that's not going to happen. 1 sin is enough to send you to Hell so make sure you die in your bed with all your family aroudn you and all your afairs in order and most importantly ALL your sisn forgiven, even the ones you can't remember because they could get you dammed.
 

Webers_Home

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I wonder how they answer the question, "So a christian needs to be born again...again,again,again"?

In my opinion those people are in bed with the ones sincerely convinced that
ritual baptism washes away sins.

†. Acts 22:16 . . And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and
wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Every stitch of punctuation in that passage was placed in its respective
location arbitrarily by translators; and the reason is because koiné Greek
contains no punctuation of its own. So then, if we remove the arbitrary
comma following the word "sins" the sentence wherein it resides looks like
this:

"Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on the name of the
Lord."

That version supplements 1John 1:9 perfectly wherein it's stated that one
need only confess to be washed rather than undergo a ritual.

If it were true that ritual baptism washed away sins, then people would need
to be re-baptized over, and over, and over again every time they required
absolution and the meanwhile calling on the Lord too since the two actions
together constitute the supposed procedure stated in Acts 22:16.

Cliff
/
 

7angels

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scriptural points

-God does not do evil but he allows evil
-God draws closer to us after we make the commitment first.
-God answers prayer when it is according to God's will and also has to bring the Glory to God
-God takes care of his own
-as we spend time with God then God will reveal the mysteries of the universe and his word
-death is the result of sin

it is never God's will for us to die before our appointed time. there are multiple stories about christians who was given a burden by God to pray and as a result have saved peoples lives who were going to die or have troubles in their lives just disappear. when we are in close relationship with God you will see and hear things happen that should be impossible to know. people have been driving and then were told clearly to stop and as a result of obeying it has caused these people to avoid accidents and other dangers from happening.

people die prematurely because of sin. i don't know why some people who are worse sinners then another seem to live to an old age while others who love the Lord die prematurely. according to the word God wants everyone to live to old age. there have been times that God has told some mighty men of God to not pray for healing for a person because they are meant to die to save them from going to hell. i don't know the details but there are times God allows things to happen for our own good. but many times they are brought about by our own actions.

this subject is tough for me to explain. if you need clarification ask questions and i will try and answer to the best of my ability.
 

Webers_Home

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I've encountered a number of people over the years who insist that Christ
paid for all one's sins up to the moment of conversion; but sins committed
afterwards cannot be forgiven until they're confessed. Their insistence is
based upon the statement below:

†. 1John 1:9 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John's first epistle was written to a group of believers who were in
possession of eternal life before his letter arrived.

†. 1 John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Eternal life is the life of God.

†. 1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our
hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested,
and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life
which was with the Father and was manifested to us

So then, since eternal life is the life of God, then it only stands to reason
that eternal life is impervious to death.

†. John 3:14-16 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him should not
perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He donated His
only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have
everlasting life.

†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

Since that's the case then people who have eternal life needn't worry ever
again about the wrath of God.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in
God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their
sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

So; what is the real purpose of 1John 1:9? Salvation? No; people with
eternal life are past need for a rescue from the wrath of God. The real
purpose is fellowship.

†. 1 John 1:5-7 . . This is the message which we have heard from Him and
declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say
that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not
practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have
fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses
us from all sin.

Take for example the prodigal son. While he was away from home in the far
country, he was still his father's son; only he and his father weren't
associating. It was only when he came back home and owned his faults that
he and his father were restored to associating with each once again.

In other words: 1John 1:9 isn't for the benefit of run-of-the-mill rank and file
pew warmers. No, 1John 1:9 is for God's kin.

†. 1John 3:1-2 . . Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed
upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world
knows us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of
God

Cliff
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