Supreme Court Decision on the Affordable Care Act (aka ACA, "Obamacare", etc)

[HammerStone]

How do you feel about it?

Yes, I know this is a can of worms, but I wanted to see what the sentiments were.

 

[mark s]

Can of worms is right!

What surprised me the most is the Supreme Court's decision to call this a tax, when it is a mandate to purchase. Does this mean that I'll be sending my premium to the IRS?

Personally, I feel that this is an agregious overstepping of authority. What will the next "tax" be? That I have to shop Ralph's and not Safeway?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[aspen]

I have high hopes for this law - I was surprised to see that it was upheld by the Supreme Court. Whatever happens - it is here to stay - even if Romney wins.

 

[avoice]

Its only Consitutional under the Tax laws not the commerce clause. So its a Tax period no matter how they spin it. If its not a Tax its not constitutional. Its to be implement by the IRS.
Its great for the very poor, wont effect the rich much, but all of in middle you are to wittness the biggest Tax hike in history according to some.

The bill was designed to put the good stuff up front but now we will see what they didnt want us to know.

This going to crush States already struggling in this ecomomy. It will dramitically raise State Tax .
The working poor will become poorer. They must buy health insurace before 2014 or face pentaltys.
The government says it will pick up some of this.

However even Libs have said this plan was meant to work with a healthy economy ..Which we dont have.
And oh dont be thinking your going to sell your house without paying.
They didnt tell you theres a New Tax on all house sales to go to pay for this plan. If I remember right when I read the bill its about $5000.00 for
$90.000 dollar sale. People who like this bill probably have not actually read it.

We are on our way to being Greece.
Which by the way today suspened the use of 100 life saving drugs,banned doctors from prescribing them today because the are too expensive.

 

[aspen]

Potential cost to you

[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]: If you're an individual making over $280,000 or a family with income over $350,000, you could eventually be looking at a tax surcharge of from 1.0 to 5.4 percent on your income above that amount.[/background]​

[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]If it takes 280,000 a year for me to be considered middle class, I have a long way to go.......[/background]​

 

[avoice]

Potential cost to you

[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]: If you're an individual making over $280,000 or a family with income over $350,000, you could eventually be looking at a tax surcharge of from 1.0 to 5.4 percent on your income above that amount.[/background]​

[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]If it takes 280,000 a year for me to be considered middle class, I have a long way to go.......[/background]​

Ignorance is truly bliss. What you arent taking into account is these figures are already proven wrong long ago they made a math error.

Secondly the court threw out the State medicade mandate which was a part of the foundational stone of the mandate.
That means the feds can not require states to cover 133% of Medicaid costs this means the feds have to pick up another 33% of all medical costs from each state that wasnt accounted for ..There is no mechanisim to pay for this
we are already broke where do you think the feds are going to get these extra billions of dollars to cover these costs ? Yep they will have to raise federal income tax ...Well except from Congress who excempted themselves.

 

[aspen]

Ignorance is truly bliss. What you arent taking into account is these figures are already proven wrong long ago they made a math error.

Secondly the court threw out the State medicade mandate which was a part of the foundational stone of the mandate.
That means the feds can not require states to cover 133% of Medicaid costs this means the feds have to pick up another 33% of all medical costs from each state that wasnt accounted for ..There is no mechanisim to pay for this
we are already broke where do you think the feds are going to get these extra billions of dollars to cover these costs ? Yep they will have to raise federal income tax ...Well except from Congress who excempted themselves.

We will see. All we can do right now is make predictions. Over the past twenty years, we have paid trillions for needless wars and bailouts for failed corporate America; healthcare is much cheaper - and perhaps the money we save on needless Emergency visits will help balance out this new cost - it is not as if we were not paying for it anyway.

If you want me to accept your claim that the middle class will pick up the tab for healthcare and the Obama administration is incorrect about the burden falling on the rich, you will have to give me some non-bias information - no FOX News; no conservative think tank numbers.

In the meantime, conservatives will continue the gloom and doom scenarios and liberals will pretend that their victory is the victory of the American people - such is politics.

 

[Strat]

Ignorance is truly bliss. What you arent taking into account is these figures are already proven wrong long ago they made a math error.

Secondly the court threw out the State medicade mandate which was a part of the foundational stone of the mandate.
That means the feds can not require states to cover 133% of Medicaid costs this means the feds have to pick up another 33% of all medical costs from each state that wasnt accounted for ..There is no mechanisim to pay for this
we are already broke where do you think the feds are going to get these extra billions of dollars to cover these costs ? Yep they will have to raise federal income tax ...Well except from Congress who excempted themselves.

This shows you just how stupid the American people are...America has got to be the most profoundly ignorant country on the face earth to allow itself to be subject to laws its leaders exempt themselves from,it would be one thing if it was done secretly but it is out in the open for all to see.....America is going to suffer the predictable fate of both the wicked and the foolish.

 

[Axehead]

We all know what Obamacare is. We all know what it costs. Conservatively, it will cost over a trillion to implement and you know how costs grow. In the beginning, they said Medicare would only cost 16 million. Get my point? Well, this is law now, unless a new president overturns it. If he can.

How do I feel about it? I am not going to let it steal my joy or harden my heart. I am still going to honor all men as the Lord commands and pray for our leaders.

Unlike the world, we have many good and edifying things to think about. Praiseworthy things, lovely things.
Let's rise up and shine as the days get darker. This is a test to rise up and shine and glorify Jesus Christ and walk in love rather than moan and complain and get bitter. Bitterness defiles many.

This hits everyone hard. I don't know of any exception.

If we are going to get ready for the coming persecution, then let's get ready in these small things.

Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace (America or whatever you are trusting in), wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan (tough times, persecutions, add your difficulty)?

Part of getting ready for the coming persecution is learning to keep ourselves in the love of God in these bitter disappointments of life and rising above it all in the power and grace of the Lord Jesus. Remember, we are just passing through and although we will not experience the Lord's wrath we are promised tribulation. Things like this are types of tribulation. Are we going to crumble and revile leaders and hate men or are we going to allow the Lord to perfect us in love in all matters?

Maybe, there will be some unaccounted for blessings as we see the days get darker. What if the Church rose up to be the victorious, joyful self-sacrificing Church of Jesus Christ not caring what the world did to it? The world is wishy-washy and anti-God and that should not dictate how we "feel". We walk by faith, not feelings and last I knew, Jesus Christ was still in control of all things.

Axehead

Some of my other observations:​

Chief Justice Roberts clearly stated that in the courts view six things were true

1. It is clearly a tax
2. As a "tax" , the power to regulate taxes clearly rests with the congress in the Constitution
3. The Supreme Court has no right to usurp congresses ability to tax at the rates it sees fit
4. If the people do not like those tax rates.. then they need to elect different representatives!
5. Ultimately the voters messed this up by sending representatives that would tax them at these massive rates.
6. No one but the voters can fix it as we are the ones who elect the ones who determine tax laws an amounts!

I think he knew exactly what he was doing. His opinion clearly exposed the fact that this is a tax law.​

The good news is, tax laws can be repealed.​

Now, Obama can't tour the country and say that the Supreme Court "took away the will of the people". Also, Romney can tour it and shout it far and wide that Obama re-nigged on his promise to tax the middle class. He did not just re-nigg he leveled an atom bomb of taxes on the middle class. 21 taxes in all, at last count. The count keeps going up because as the illustrious Pelosi once said, "We have to pass the Healthcare bill in order to see what is in it."​

Axehead​

 

[HammerStone]

Aspen, I can give you one very real, very tangile cost increase for the middle class. My father's insurance deductible balooned to $3500/year for him and my mom. It went beyond doubling, my Father's medicine now costs $500/month, forcing him to work with his doctors to find another cheaper alternative.

This was done because the company (not a large fortune-500 company) had to ensure all workers. Unfortunately, they couldn't obtain waivers like many large and influential fortune 500 companies.

This scenario has played out for friends as well. The entire problem with this bill is a very large swath of the middle class will be caught between not having the money, yet remaining unable to qualify for any of the credits. (In addition to the reality being that not everyone can wait around until year's end for a credit!) This was the reasoning behind President Obama's desire to ensure children on their parent's insurance up until 26 - that was specifically intended to be a stop-gap for a demographic that would be adversely affected by this requirement.

In addition to this, while the insurance pool has indeed expanded, any gain in income will be offset by a gain in the cost of care. Now, companies will be forced to pay for expensive care. Now, let's not just make this about numbers, because it is about people, but this adversely affects the masses for a relative few. Additionally, this bill does nothing to address the crux of the issue, which is not the availably of care, but the cost of care.

As far as non-Conservative think tank numbers, just go the CBO:

The original scoring of $940 billion shot up to $1.76 trillion in April (for 10 year period). Because of the recent decision regarding Medicaid funding, that number will most certainly increase, as avoice stated because more funding will be needed.

That has already surpassed the $1.29 trillion cost of the Iraq & Afghanistan wars for 2001-2010, and we're still counting [the healthcare cost]. (Couresy of the Center for Defense Information.) The CDI is known for its focus on criticisms of defense spending.

I'm sorry, but this bill is the single most assinine and pig-headed piece of junk I've seen. The only real defenses I see being put up for it usually are 1) You don't want poor people to have healthcare or 2) The system was broken, so we needed to do something.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, I can give you one very real, very tangile cost increase for the middle class. My father's insurance deductible balooned to $3500/year for him and my mom. It went beyond doubling, my Father's medicine now costs $500/month, forcing him to work with his doctors to find another cheaper alternative.

This was done because the company (not a large fortune-500 company) had to ensure all workers. Unfortunately, they couldn't obtain waivers like many large and influential fortune 500 companies.

This scenario has played out for friends as well. The entire problem with this bill is a very large swath of the middle class will be caught between not having the money, yet remaining unable to qualify for any of the credits. (In addition to the reality being that not everyone can wait around until year's end for a credit!) This was the reasoning behind President Obama's desire to ensure children on their parent's insurance up until 26 - that was specifically intended to be a stop-gap for a demographic that would be adversely affected by this requirement.

In addition to this, while the insurance pool has indeed expanded, any gain in income will be offset by a gain in the cost of care. Now, companies will be forced to pay for expensive care. Now, let's not just make this about numbers, because it is about people, but this adversely affects the masses for a relative few. Additionally, this bill does nothing to address the crux of the issue, which is not the availably of care, but the cost of care.

As far as non-Conservative think tank numbers, just go the CBO:

The original scoring of $940 billion shot up to $1.76 trillion in April (for 10 year period). Because of the recent decision regarding Medicaid funding, that number will most certainly increase, as avoice stated because more funding will be needed.

That has already surpassed the $1.29 trillion cost of the Iraq & Afghanistan wars for 2001-2010, and we're still counting [the healthcare cost]. (Couresy of the Center for Defense Information.) The CDI is known for its focus on criticisms of defense spending.

I'm sorry, but this bill is the single most assinine and pig-headed piece of junk I've seen. The only real defenses I see being put up for it usually are 1) You don't want poor people to have healthcare or 2) The system was broken, so we needed to do something.

No one got what they wanted. I think it is too bad that Congress decided not to work together to come up with something decent. I am not just blaming conservatives either. Hopefully, this will be a starting place to overhaul the bill. To be honest, what I fear is that Congress will continue to apply partisan politics to it and make the situation even worse. It is a sad day for American when the republican congressman only want to kill this thing in order to defeat Obama - and the democrats only want to keep the corpse animated long enough for Obama to get credit for it.

As far as health insurance premium for your parents - I understand - my father is middle class self employed and in good health, but my mom has a chronic illness - the only insurance they could get 10 years ago, cost them a 5000 dollar a year deductible, with astronomical quarterly payments. The fact is, we needed healthcare reform - I am remaining hopefully that we can make this work

 

[Foreigner]

As far as non-Conservative think tank numbers, just go the CBO:

The original scoring of $940 billion shot up to $1.76 trillion in April (for 10 year period). Because of the recent decision regarding Medicaid funding, that number will most certainly increase, as avoice stated because more funding will be needed.

-- That is the part no one is talking about. A cost increase of 90% above the promised amount. Just...like...that...
That makes this program unsustainable at best and with the real potential of absolutely destroying our economy.

And there wasn't enough funding in place for the original amount of $940,000,000.

They are using mathematical dishonesty by collecting revenue for a full five years before benefits for multiple services kick in.
So now, after the next five years, the total amount paid in over ten years will run out and costs will force the program to begin running at a decifit.

This even though ObamaCare raids Medicare to the tune of $500,000,000.

I'm sorry, but this bill is the single most assinine and pig-headed piece of junk I've seen. The only real defenses I see being put up for it usually are 1) You don't want poor people to have healthcare or 2) The system was broken, so we needed to do something.

-- Unfortunately, you are correct.
"Poor people need healthcare" does not justify the expense of $1.76 Trillion over ten years.
The cost of both Medicare and Medicaid run at 20% fraud, waste, and abuse. Correcting that would have more than financed care for the poor.
Obama had a Democrat House and Senate his first two years in office. This could have been addressed then.

Thier push now is to claim that forcing everyone to pay is not a 'tax.' The White House yesterday said it wasn't a tax but rather a "penalty," denying the very justification the Supreme Court used to find it Constitutional.

The justices even criticized Obama's lawyer because one day he argued that it was a mandate, not a tax, and the next day he argued it was a "simple tax" and not a mandate.

No one got what they wanted. I think it is too bad that Congress decided not to work together to come up with something decent. I am not just blaming conservatives either.

-- "I am not just blaming conservatives, either?" Are you kidding? Seriously, are you kidding?

You present that as if it is primarily the Republican's fault that the Democrats ALONE voted to pass this 2000-plus debacle without first reading it.

The Republicans offered 60 seperate ideas/suggestions for the program and Obama, Pelosi, and Reid rejected ALL OF THEM.
They did not consider, let alone accept a single one of them.

One of them was the suggestion to make it legal to sell health insurance across state lines, like car insurance. That would have had an almost immediate impact on the cost of health care. Competition brings increased services and lower prices.

THEY WOULD NOT EVEN ALLOW A SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO BE BROUGHT UP FOR DISCUSSION ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE.
This even though the Republicans agreed on a large number of the Democrat ideas, like letting kids stay on their parents insurance and covering pre-existing conditions.

How is is possible to say that the Democrats were willing to compromise with the Republicans when they refused to entertain even one...single...idea...

Did you really forget the ONE TIME Obama invited the Republicans to the White House to discuss their support? They tried to offer several options and Obama refused all, finally telling them that they lost the election and are going to have to learn to live with it.




.

 

[aspen]

-- That is the part no one is talking about. A cost increase of 90% above the promised amount. Just...like...that...
That makes this program unsustainable at best and with the real potential of absolutely destroying our economy.

And there wasn't enough funding in place for the original amount of $940,000,000.

They are using mathematical dishonesty by collecting revenue for a full five years before benefits for multiple services kick in.
So now, after the next five years, the total amount paid in over ten years will run out and costs will force the program to begin running at a decifit.

This even though ObamaCare raids Medicare to the tune of $500,000,000.




-- Unfortunately, you are correct.
"Poor people need healthcare" does not justify the expense of $1.76 Trillion over ten years.
The cost of both Medicare and Medicaid run at 20% fraud, waste, and abuse. Correcting that would have more than financed care for the poor.
Obama had a Democrat House and Senate his first two years in office. This could have been addressed then.

Thier push now is to claim that forcing everyone to pay is not a 'tax.' The White House yesterday said it wasn't a tax but rather a "penalty," denying the very justification the Supreme Court used to find it Constitutional.

The justices even criticized Obama's lawyer because one day he argued that it was a mandate, not a tax, and the next day he argued it was a "simple tax" and not a mandate.




-- "I am not just blaming conservatives, either?" Are you kidding? Seriously, are you kidding?

You present that as if it is primarily the Republican's fault that the Democrats ALONE voted to pass this 2000-plus debacle without first reading it.

The Republicans offered 60 seperate ideas/suggestions for the program and Obama, Pelosi, and Reid rejected ALL OF THEM.
They did not consider, let alone accept a single one of them.

One of them was the suggestion to make it legal to sell health insurance across state lines, like car insurance. That would have had an almost immediate impact on the cost of health care. Competition brings increased services and lower prices.

THEY WOULD NOT EVEN ALLOW A SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO BE BROUGHT UP FOR DISCUSSION ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE.
This even though the Republicans agreed on a large number of the Democrat ideas, like letting kids stay on their parents insurance and covering pre-existing conditions.

How is is possible to say that the Democrats were willing to compromise with the Republicans when they refused to entertain even one...single...idea...

Did you really forget the ONE TIME Obama invited the Republicans to the White House to discuss their support? They tried to offer several options and Obama refused all, finally telling them that they lost the election and are going to have to learn to live with it.




.

Both sides are to blame. My statement about not just blaming conservatives was included in my post to make sure that people knew that I hold democrats responsible as well. To be honest, I really cannot remember a lot of the drama involved when the Bill was being passed through Congress - however, I do remember Republicans making demands that Obama eventually caved in on. One of them was universal coverage.

I thought this frontline episode was interesting:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamasdeal/view/

 

[Axehead]

I really cannot remember a lot of the drama involved when the Bill was being passed through Congress - however, I do remember Republicans making demands that Obama eventually caved in on. One of them was universal coverage.

It's hard not to forget all the drama surrounding this bill. Passed on Christmas Eve along party lines.

The bill passed in a 60-39 party line vote after months of heated partisan debate. Every member of the Democratic caucus backed the measure; every Republican opposed it.

"Affordable Healthcare Act".....is an oxymoron.

Personally, I'm glad Roberts called it a "tax", even though Obama said it was not a tax.

Before 2009, if anyone in America was asked, "What is a mandatory payment to the government called?" - 10 out of 10 people would say TAX.

Just saying...

It's back in the Congress' hands as the legislative branch regulates or repeals taxes.

My joy still comes from the Lord and I will still pray for and obey the Civil authorities, even though my deductible was raised to 5,000.00 last year and I'm sure my healthcosts will go higher.

Axehead