Synagogues and Christian Churches

[marksman]

Do we also not mention that not all Churches today have a lengthy, just-feel-good, pep rally with jumbo trons once week on Sunday.
I fail to see the relevance of this statement.
And do we not also mention that some Churches today do meet daily, a few even 24/7 365 with respectful and beautiful worship services.
On the basis of what you have said you are talking about churches that have a funeral service every day, is that correct?
And do we not mention that the Catholic Church has always endorsed daily gatherings of the faithful whenever possible.
No, because their daily meetings are based on works that the more eucharists you attend the more likely you are to obtain your salvation.
Have never been to any "home" Churches that did any more than Sunday and maybe a couple of Bible studies during the week, certainly none of those were daily. Maybe some of those do meet daily, just not been my experience.
One man's personal experience is highly subjective and inadequate to base any contention on and would not stand up to serious scrutiny.
Am not sure what the problem is here with funerals.
The problem is that I, and probably everyone else, have yet to meet anyone who has gone to a funeral service on a weekly basis for a so called "worship" service. Mind you, I have to admit, many services in so called churches seem like funeral services with about as much life as an extinct dodo.
But maybe we're not suppose to mention that either or that John and Mary were buried (had a funeral) in a Church or that these were Jews who had a thing about dead bodies and not likely to want to bury someone under the living room floor.
I fail to see the relevance of this statement, but that should not be surprising as I only have one theological and three university degrees so I can't be expected to understand anything too esoteric.

 

[waquinas]

Again we focus on funerals. The original statement was
A worship service was no doubt held at the burials of both John and Mary at the Church in Ephesus. Without consulting 40 authors or Biblical commentary I would say that at least part of that process constituted a 1st century worship service
While my formal English training is limited, usually I take one sentence immediately after another to indicate related topics. If we say something ("worship") is "at least a part" of something else (funeral and specifically here Christian funeral implied), also taking "that process" here as referring to the funeral mentioned in the prior sentence, then I would not normally conclude that the understanding was meant that the only form of worship was a funeral or that all worship services were funerals. There would also be a presumption, perhaps mistaken on my part, that people on this site would be familiar with Christian funeral practices. Would certainly think someone with a theology degree would know that Christian practices even today often include a full service, much like if not identical to a Sunday service as part of the funeral "process". Perhaps someone more enlightened in English, say a professor, would be able to tell us why we should take the above quote and conclude the meaning intended was that all worship services are funerals. It is beyond me, but again am not an English professor.Would also think someone with several degrees and including one in theology would see the relevance of the claim that Mary and John are buried in a specific Church (today), that this Church is on top of the original "Church" in which they were buried and that Jews of the mid 1st century had a thing about the dead, touching the dead, being around the dead. While lacking several degrees and none in theology, it occurs to me that a Jew of those days (even converted ones) would not bury someone in the living room or want to live in a house where they were buried.

 

[RichardBurger]

This thread is about the church setup being one that separates the clergy from the rest of the children of God. A separation that is not taught in the scriptures. In the scriptures we are all the same on an equal footiung with each other.From the OP (original post) I qoute:Constantine had three churches built in Rome. His church of the John Lateran was built on a site without any special associations. His churches of St. Peter and St. Paul are said to be build on the traditional sites of the apostle’s martyrdom or burial.The basilica style was used by the Emperor for his first church, St. John Lateran, and in all the main centers of the Empire this style of church building was copied. The basilica pattern made it easier for the distinction between the clergy and the lay people to be made. The basilica pattern had the apse reserved for the clergy, and those not actively taking part in the service sat on a bench against the wall. There was also a throne set up in the center for the bishop, and this chief seat reflected his position as a loyal Roman imperial servant as much as a pastor of the flock. This same style has been incorporated in most all of the Protestant Church Denominations as well.Church buildings became the means of all Christian Churches by which the people of God could be divided into clergy and laity, professional and amateurs. Just as the Pharisees of the New Testament began about the same time that the Jewish people began building synagogues, the Christian clergy began with the building of separate church buildings.Like the Pharisees who separated themselves from the rest of the Jewish people, and became the teachers of the synagogues, the church buildings gave a place for those that would elevate themselves above the rest of the people of God. Just as the Pharisees taught interpretations of God's laws some teachers today teach their interpretation of what God wants man to do, and believe, in order to be saved. Their ideas form the basis for their belief system. A personal humble and trusting relationship with Jesus in a person's heart is not taught as the core to being a Christian.Are we really supposed to think that Jesus Christ come to set up just another established organized religion ran by men who can deceive themselves? I, personally, don't think so since he said that the time will come, after his death, when man will not say, let us go here, or there, to worship God, for man will worship God from within his heart. In other words, a personal worship of God whose spirit is living within the hearts of those who love him. (JOHN 4:21-24)Paul never taught that the church was a separate "entity" from the children of God. He taught that the church exists in the hearts of the children of God. Jesus said,John 17:20-2320 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.(NKJ)We are “in Christ” and Christ is in us and we are all in the Father. Don’t let the physical church ran by men keep you from having this close relationship with God.

 

[waquinas]

Don’t let the physical church ran by men keep you from having this close relationship with God.
I don't, and hopefully many others will not either.And I do not believe that Churches are "divided" in their members. Even in the NT it indicates there are roles within the Church and those roles are not identical. Is one more important than the other? That is kind of a silly argument Paul would say. Is my hand more important than my foot? That is silliness, both are needed. We need the lay, we need Pastors, we need teachers.....etc. And those roles are not equal, they each serve a purpose, often very different ones and all are necessary.Do abuses of roles and power go on within Churches? Absolutely! And it is not just at the top of any leadership structure that abuse and sin occur. Does that mean having those roles are bad? Again that is silliness as Paul says we still need a hand or a foot? So the answer cannot be abolish the roles, the NT clearly indicates roles within a Church structure. All roles are needed, none less important than another but no reason to think that means the early Church was complete and fully democratic run organization. In fact it appears quite the opposite that certain key individuals had and made important decisions on behalf of the ENTIRE Church. So as far as authority goes, not all the roles in the Church were equal in that respect.As to everyone being equal that is true and actually Jesus turns that upside down and says the greatest is the one who serves all. While that is a statement of how we should approach our roles within the Church, it does not mean all those roles are equal, especially when it comes to speaking with authority on behalf of the Church. If you look at the major debates they had, certain people had key roles in that debate. Did they make some decisions by lot? Sure, they picked replacement for Judas that way. But look who the leaders were making the suggestion first that it needed to be done and second that it be done that way! Those same people speak authoritatively on several occassions before large numbers of what we would have to call Church leaders today and the others LISTENED to them.

 

[RichardBurger]

(waquinas;57424)
I don't, and hopefully many others will not either.And I do not believe that Churches are "divided" in their members. Even in the NT it indicates there are roles within the Church and those roles are not identical. Is one more important than the other? That is kind of a silly argument Paul would say. Is my hand more important than my foot? That is silliness, both are needed. We need the lay, we need Pastors, we need teachers.....etc. And those roles are not equal, they each serve a purpose, often very different ones and all are necessary.Do abuses of roles and power go on within Churches? Absolutely! And it is not just at the top of any leadership structure that abuse and sin occur. Does that mean having those roles are bad? Again that is silliness as Paul says we still need a hand or a foot? So the answer cannot be abolish the roles, the NT clearly indicates roles within a Church structure. All roles are needed, none less important than another but no reason to think that means the early Church was complete and fully democratic run organization. In fact it appears quite the opposite that certain key individuals had and made important decisions on behalf of the ENTIRE Church. So as far as authority goes, not all the roles in the Church were equal in that respect.As to everyone being equal that is true and actually Jesus turns that upside down and says the greatest is the one who serves all. While that is a statement of how we should approach our roles within the Church, it does not mean all those roles are equal, especially when it comes to speaking with authority on behalf of the Church. If you look at the major debates they had, certain people had key roles in that debate. Did they make some decisions by lot? Sure, they picked replacement for Judas that way. But look who the leaders were making the suggestion first that it needed to be done and second that it be done that way! Those same people speak authoritatively on several occassions before large numbers of what we would have to call Church leaders today and the others LISTENED to them.
I don't share your opinion that I, and everyone else, should listen to the church leaders of today. The Jews listened to their leaders when Jesus walked this earth and we see what happened. I see this same thing happening again.You can listen to your church leaders if you wish but I will listen to God when I read His word. When I see that the religious leaders in the churches are teaching false doctrines I will listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit in my heart saying that they are teaching lies. But you will say I can't do that. However, the scriptures tell me that I can.John 10:26-3026 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.30 I and My Father are one." NKJVI see no need to respond on this any further. You can do as you wish and so will I.

 

[waquinas]

As I said, I would hope you, all here and especially myself would speak up whenever we felt Church leaders are wrong or teaching error. It would be our obligation to do so I would think. Would also hope we all would do as the Spirit leads us, however as we all sin we must agree we do not always follow where the Spirit leads us. I would think that could be no less true in each of us when considering what is truth and what is false in a particular teaching.In matters of truth I think it is not as simple as following the Spirit, because there too much other stuff going on in our heads. Our personal experiences, good and bad, our teachers, the books we read, television....etc all influence us when we consider do I believe A or B. The fact most of us have (or will) changed our minds about A or B over our lifetimes also speaks to the fact there is more going on in our heads than simply saying I follow the Spirit. That some teach or do wrong in Church is true. It does not however follow that all Church leaders are wrong or teahing error. Nor does it follow that the Holy Spirit would lead one person one way and another the opposite. If either person is correct, then the Spirit is only leading one of them, the other is in error. So I do not think we can conclude that simply relying on the Spirit alone to guide us each individually will always result in each of us going the right way on any given matter or issue. If it were so then more of us would be walking on similar paths rather than what we have today.I do think the Spirit guides all Christians, as far as we each allow Him. So it cannot be a case of either no guidance or 100% guidance if one is a Christian. The same Spirit also guides our leaders, even our secular ones. People do not always follow the Spirit, it is part of being human in this life. Whether our president, Church leader or home group study/Church leader, how could it be any different?I guess the retort could be only "we" (pick a group) are the only ones 100% following the Spirit and everyone else is wrong, to which there is no response really. And while such people may take comfort in the fact "the way" is narrow, am not sure that means one can judge whether you are on the right path because there are fewer people on the right one with you. While neither is the reverse true, I would think that most Christians are trying to stay on the same path, and where we disagree are not matters of being on the same path or not.Bad things happen in Churches. I have witnessed it. Also witnessed bad things happening in "home" Churches. I think error can be taught in both. I do not think one has an advantage over the other in this area, except to say the larger number of people you have, the more likely there will be some bad apples in there. But that is just a function of human life and not something unique to a particular Church structure. Having a smaller group or "home" Church only makes the numbers of bad apples smaller and perhaps harder for them to blend end.

 

[Christina]

Please just because some on this thread do not agree lets not accuse anyone of no belief in God. Keep it civil

 

[RichardBurger]

(waquinas;57487)
That some teach or do wrong in Church is true. It does not however follow that all Church leaders are wrong or teahing error. Nor does it follow that the Holy Spirit would lead one person one way and another the opposite. If either person is correct, then the Spirit is only leading one of them, the other is in error. So I do not think we can conclude that simply relying on the Spirit alone to guide us each individually will always result in each of us going the right way on any given matter or issue. If it were so then more of us would be walking on similar paths rather than what we have today.
So you are left to figure out which ones are teaching the truth. How do you do that? If it isn't by listening to the Holy Spirit, then how do you do it?As for me, I believe Jesus when He said: John 10:26-3026 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.30 I and My Father are one." NKJVAnd if that is not enough then how about this one? John 10:11-1511 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.Note: The hirelings are the ones that were supposed to look after the sheep. In the days of Jesus it was the Jewish clergy. In our time it is the religious clergy.14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.NKJVIt is obvious to me that God did not leave us in the hands of hirelings.My faith, trust, confidence is in God's power to teach me and to keep me. IMHO, to place your faith, trust, confidence in men is building your house on sand.Now I notice that you want to have the last word so please do have the last word. It changes nothing for me.

 

[Christina]

This argument puts me in mind of Amos 8:11 the famine of the End times is for the true Word of God Where is the only place we can get the true Word of God ? It is not from men who have learned from other men? it is not from the church learders of today? for God says they are first Judged for leading his sheep asrtray. The Word says the whole World will follow after the beast (antichrist) why is this? For lack of hearing the true Word of God. So men are not obviously not telling you the truth of his Word.There is only one place we can hear his truth and trust it to be true and that is between the pages of his Book.Never put your faith in men check them out against the scripture that is what you are told to do.

 

[RichardBurger]

(kriss;57528)
There is only one place we can hear his truth and trust it to be true and that is between the pages of his Book.Never put your faith in men check them out against the scripture that is what you are told to do.
I have been posting what I believe.It take two to argue so I am off this thread.

 

[Jordan]

(kriss;57528)
This argument puts me in mind of Amos 8:11 the famine of the End times is for the true Word of God Where is the only place we can get the true Word of God ? It is not from men who have learned from other men? it is not from the church learders of today? for God says they are first Judged for leading his sheep asrtray. The Word says the whole World will follow after the beast (antichrist) why is this? For lack of hearing the true Word of God. So men are not obviously not telling you the truth of his Word.There is only one place we can hear his truth and trust it to be true and that is between the pages of his Book.Never put your faith in men check them out against the scripture that is what you are told to do.
What is a Rock?John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Amos 8:11 - Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.What is a Sand?Psalm 116:11 - I said in my haste, All men are liars.Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.John 10:10 - The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.John 7:18 - He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.In conclusion...I John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[waquinas]

(RichardBurger;57513)
Now I notice that you want to have the last word so please do have the last word. It changes nothing for me.
Nay you can have it.

 

[waquinas]

(kriss;57528)
Never put your faith in men check them out against the scripture that is what you are told to do.
But if we check it out and agree with them and it opposes you, then we should follow you or Denver?

 

[Christina]

No you learn how to study the Word deeper for yourself until you find the truth you never blindly follow anyone . The fact is the Word only says one thing a house divided falls you can not have two masters its either Gods Word or mans word. We have no magic wand we only know scripture on all levels (there is more than the surface text) and how to study. One does have to know scripture well enough to know when you are creating a contradiction somewhere else and the whole of the Word has to fit like a puzzleWe do not know all the answers but we do know when something doesn't fit then you have to find the answer.Ive always said prove us wrong in scripture and we'll listen but don't ask us to listen to men if what they say contradicts Gods Word. If it drives you deeper into the Word and the language it was written in to prove us wrongthen thats great. you will be learning how to study. There is only one truth that is Gods truth and its in his Word.

 

[Jordan]

(kriss;57559)
No you learn how to study the Word deeper for yourself until you find the truth you never blindly follow anyone . The fact is the Word only says one thing a house divided falls you can not have two masters its either Gods Word or mans word. We have no magic wand we only know scripture on all levels (there is more than the surface text) and how to study. One does have to know scripture well enough to know when you are creating a contradiction somewhere else and the whole of the Word has to fit like a puzzleWe do not know all the answers but we do know when something doesn't fit then you have to find the answer.Ive always said prove us wrong in scripture and we'll listen but don't ask us to listen to men if what they say contradicts Gods Word. If it drives you deeper into the Word and the language it was written in to prove us wrongthen thats great. you will be learning how to study. There is only one truth that is Gods truth and its in his Word.
I agree with you, that we should never blindly follow men. It's like, a person goes to church, sits down, listen to a pastor of the church, go home, come back next week...when one never bother to read and check the Word for themselves, for they tell you what to believe...Now that's difinately follow men...so ever blindly.

 

[Christina]

Right Jag there is no shame in being proved wrong in scripture its the only way we learn what Gods truth is. If one doesnt know scripture well enough to prove their point or us wrong then it just stays a disagreement. Doesnt mean both are right because as I said the Word only says one thing.To find that one answer should be the goal of everyone that wants to know what their Father says to them.

 

[RichardBurger]

(kriss;57562)
Right Jag there is no shame in being proved wrong in scripture its the only way we learn what Gods truth is. If one doesnt know scripture well enough to prove their point or us wrong then it just stays a disagreement. Doesnt mean both are right because as I said the Word only says one thing.To find that one answer should be the goal of everyone that wants to know what their Father says to them.
I have been thinking about your reply for awhile and I can agree with what you said, that the scriptures are always right. However, I have to conclude that it is a matter of viewpoint as to whether someone is right or wrong in their opinion of what scriptures say. Most of us will think that our opinion of what they say is correct.But in the end it is between God and the man/woman and only those that God reveals Himself too will know the truth. -- So we are back at square one.Interesting isn't it?

 

[marksman]

Some very good comments obviously posted by people who can think for themselves. I often think of the church as a sausage machine. The audience are the sausage skins and the preacher produces the meat to be forced into the skins. When they are full they are sent out to be roasted by the devil as they have no idea what is being pumped into them. I have been debating atheists and homosexuals on line and I have found if you don't know the word you are knocked out in the first round. I have had an interesting experience regarding the word and opinion. I have found that when you search the scriptures, in many cases, there is no such thing as opinion. In a study of NT church leadership there are 17 verses that indicate it was by a plurality of male unpaid local elders. You can see it all at http://churchalive66/googlepages.com despite this fact people have said to me that having one paid pastor is biblical because there is ONE verse that says "the labourer is worthy of his hire". Nothing else, just that one verse.I explain that you don't build a doctrine on one verse of scripture, you always go by the general revelation of scipture and that is found in 17 verses not one taken out of context. Response? Well it must be right because all the churches have a pastor who is paid a salary.I point out that this was a tradition which was introduced many years later by the roman church and by Constantine who insisted that the "clergy" receive a salary. If he insisted on paying them a salary, why would he do this if they were "paid a salary". When we ignore the general revelation of scripture, we shut ourselves off from the truth and become captive to tradition and that then becomes the final authority, not the scriptures.

 

[tomwebster]

marksman, I am not sure what you are trying to conclude from this post. Are you saying that clergy should not be paid? That they should be non-professionals? That they should be paid more then they are?

 

[marksman]

What I set out was how the NT church conducted itself in regards to leadership. I happen to believe that you can't pick and choose which bits of scripture you use for faith and practice. Therefore if what we do is not backed up by the general revelation of scripture, it is us that is wrong, not scripture. Having discussed the issue of leadership with many church leaders and read their teaching on the subject, it was very noticable that the most common approach was "let's find scripture or interpret scripture to justify that which is not scriptual." It was a case of this could mean this or it could mean that.I asked "What about the 17 verses that all say the same thing?"Reply, "Well of course it depends how you interpret those 17 verses?"Question "How can you interpret 17 verses that all have the same Greek word in each one?"Answer "Go away and don't bother us." (In other words, I would rather have tradition than the scrpiture).In nearly every case, they discussed what the denomination taught, not what the scripture taught. In every case, the denomination taught what was not in scripture.The denomination that I was in was appointing Elders contrary to scripture and I pointed this out to them. Their response was "We refuse to discuss this with you."