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Taste death for every man

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by savedbygrace57, Dec 1, 2008.

  1. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    heb 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. False religon today has given this scripture a meaning that God never intended, that of Jesus christ having died or tasted death for every individual in the world. This could not be the case however because of several considerations.One. This book was specifically designed for a specific covenantal communtity, The Jews, or Hebrews, those acquainted with the covenantal engagements God sustained with that His earthly covenant people.The Lanuage of the book is suited to that type of audience..They, the hebrews being quite familair with the duties of the hight priest of Israel, namely the first one aaron, knew that the sacrifice for sin on the day of atonement was meant for all of Israel, The covenant people of God..Hence, when they would read the letter of hebrews, the every man would mean every israelite..not every one in the world..for they knew that God had a special chosen people..Even more the word man is not in the original, it was added by the translators..so it would read He tasted death for every [pas] collectively, everyone collectively of the covenant people, the whole of the twelve tribes..which aaron wore on his ephod..But the context of heb 2 9 also helps determine who the writer had in mind as the pas every, the collective whole..Lets look at vs 16:16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. The every is all of the seed of abraham, that group of covnenat people Jesus christ identified with in his becoming flesh and blood.The seed of abraham is a chosen race of people..notice ps 105:6O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.isa 41:8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.Now look at the N T counterpart gal 3:29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.heirs according to the promise..so the every is every heir of promise..This is a promised seed , that God promised abraham..The seed of when He told abraham he had been made the father of many nations..gen 17:5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.this seed of abrahams was not limited to the jews, but to the elect gentiles too, thats why it reads a father of many nations..so this seed is not limited to jews..but the children of promise..rom 9:8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.They which are the children of the flesh, meaning merely ethnic jews, thats not what constitutes being the children of promise [ the seed] to whom the promises are made..but its to a spiritual, heavenly seed, the seed of christ..by which the true children of promise recieve a new birth manifesting them as the seed of abraham..So thats one of many definitions of who Jesus christ tasted death for. Not all of mankind, but for the seed of abraham, the children of promise..__________________
     
  2. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    The "father of many nations" part are literal nations spawned from Abraham. In other words, if one could do a genealogy long enough, these people would have Abraham as father. Ironically, the ten tribes of Israel (like Joseph) became Gentiles in order to spread the gospel to the rest of the (non-Israelite) Gentiles.Israel as a whole nationally accepted Christianity, but the Jews did not thus "some" of the branches were broken off.Even Paul attested to this when when he said For they are not all Israel, which are of IsraelIn other words, those who appear to be Israel are not the entire race of Abraham. People look at the Jews and ask why God did not appear to stay faithful. The answer is because they are not all of Israel. The rest migrated and became Gentiles so that the promise is not only to those of the Law (the Jews), but of the faith of Abraham, ie. the seed Abraham had because of his faith.
     
  3. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    (savedbygrace57;64873)
    heb 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. False religon today has given this scripture a meaning that God never intended, that of Jesus christ having died or tasted death for every individual in the world. This could not be the case however because of several considerations.One. This book was specifically designed for a specific covenantal communtity, The Jews, or Hebrews, those acquainted with the covenantal engagements God sustained with that His earthly covenant people.The Lanuage of the book is suited to that type of audience..They, the hebrews being quite familair with the duties of the hight priest of Israel, namely the first one aaron, knew that the sacrifice for sin on the day of atonement was meant for all of Israel, The covenant people of God..Hence, when they would read the letter of hebrews, the every man would mean every israelite..not every one in the world..for they knew that God had a special chosen people..Even more the word man is not in the original, it was added by the translators..so it would read He tasted death for every [pas] collectively, everyone collectively of the covenant people, the whole of the twelve tribes..which aaron wore on his ephod..But the context of heb 2 9 also helps determine who the writer had in mind as the pas every, the collective whole..Lets look at vs 16:16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. The every is all of the seed of abraham, that group of covnenat people Jesus christ identified with in his becoming flesh and blood.The seed of abraham is a chosen race of people..notice ps 105:6O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.isa 41:8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.Now look at the N T counterpart gal 3:29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.heirs according to the promise..so the every is every heir of promise..This is a promised seed , that God promised abraham..The seed of when He told abraham he had been made the father of many nations..gen 17:5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.this seed of abrahams was not limited to the jews, but to the elect gentiles too, thats why it reads a father of many nations..so this seed is not limited to jews..but the children of promise..rom 9:8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.They which are the children of the flesh, meaning merely ethnic jews, thats not what constitutes being the children of promise [ the seed] to whom the promises are made..but its to a spiritual, heavenly seed, the seed of christ..by which the true children of promise recieve a new birth manifesting them as the seed of abraham..So thats one of many definitions of who Jesus christ tasted death for. Not all of mankind, but for the seed of abraham, the children of promise..__________________
    I agree, if Jesus HAD tasted death for every man and woman who had ever lived, that would mean that His death on the Cross atoned for their sins.... but if His death atoned for their sins, then that would mean that all their sins are forgiven.... but if all their sins are forgiven, then that means they are saved, and are going to heaven.... but that would necessarily imply Universalism, which is not scriptural at all..... so His death on the Cross can't have had every person without exception in mind, for every person would then be saved..... now some might say that if a person goes to hell, it is for the sin of unbelief.... but the sin of unbelief is just a sin like any other sin... and is not in fact the unpardonable sin... and thus it is covered by the blood of Christ, for who can say that their faith has never wavered...? Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief"..... The work of Christ on the Cross, the atonement, is particular in nature, and it's efficacy is applied only to those for whom it was intended, namely the elect. All the sins of some (the elect) are forgiven, every single sin, and thus, they are saved not because of what they have done, not based on their own running or willing, but because of God who shows mercy to whom He wills, and who hardens whom He wills. Is God unjust then? Romans 9:19-24 (ESV) Ro 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? blessings,Ken
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    It's conditional, freely available to all men, but only works for those who accept it.John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    II Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    Because of his nature, he has made it available to all, but we know that all will not accept. That's the beauty of his great design.
     
  5. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    The "father of many nations" part are literal nations spawned from Abraham
    This promise is referring to spiritual people..He is their father because , they imitate his faith, literial nations isnt the point here..
     
  6. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    but the sin of unbelief is just a sin like any other sin...
    exactly and Gods covenant faithfulness to the heirs of salvation cannot thwart His Faithfulness to them..2 tim 2: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
    The work of Christ on the Cross, the atonement, is particular in nature, and it's efficacy is applied only to those for whom it was intended, namely the elect.
    This is gospel truth..
     
  7. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    It's conditional, freely available to all men, but only works for those who accept it.
    This is your own wrong understanding of scripture..
    Quote:The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    The usward is to whom God is not willing to perish..now who is the usward ?In 1 pet 1 we find out who the usward are 1 pet 1: 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Its the elect..so , peter is merely saying, that God is not willing that any of the elect perish..
     
  8. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    This promise is referring to spiritual people..He is their father because , they imitate his faith, literial nations isnt the point here..
    Nope that's not true. Could you then explain to us all here why there would be a literal nation (e.g. Jews) in Genesis 35:11 but the plural part is meant to be taken spiritually? Rest assure Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not understand it that way. One cannot take all the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and apply some to physical people and others to spiritual to satisfy their notions. That's not exegesis. That's eisegesis. But the text says nations. That's the straightforward meaning using exegesis. Sorry. That's what the Bible says no matter how one tries to song and dance around that.
     
  9. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    Nope that's not true
    It is true..
    Could you then explain to us all here why there would be a literal nation (e.g. Jews) in Genesis 35:11 but the plural part is meant to be taken spiritually
    I dont believe you can understand spiritual truth..
     
  10. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    Rest assure Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not understand it that way.
    sure they did heb 11:9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Abraham is the subject vs8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. vs 9 identifies the heirs, Issach and Jacob..heirs with abraham of the same promise..now did they look for literial land ? Nope..they looked for a city which hath foundations, the builder and maker was God..This is the city rev 21: 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;It plainly says on down in heb 11 that it was a heavenly city they looked for:16But now they[the heirs] desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. They confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on earth 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. If it was an earthly land of inheritance, they had opportunity to go get it 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. So, you dont know what your talking about, and dont ask me to explain nothing else because you will only reject it like you getting ready to reject this explanation, for you are blind to truth and brainwashed..
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Nope that's not true
    It is true..(tim_from_pa;65066)
    Could you then explain to us all here why there would be a literal nation (e.g. Jews) in Genesis 35:11 but the plural part is meant to be taken spiritually
    I dont believe you can understand spiritual truth..I think you don't understand the fact that without a physical, this is no such thing as a spiritual. You can't have one to understand God's Words. You need both things.
     
  12. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    I dont believe you can understand spiritual truth
    Another sweeper under the rug (such folks cannot ever seem to answer Genesis 35:11). I understand BOTH the spiritual and physical. You only understand one side apparently. Try playing with a full deck instead of half of one someday. You may find out how much more enlightened you'll become and come to realize what you are missing and may understand all the bible instead of about 1/8th of it.Fact is, nations means nations whether you want to interpret it that way or not. Christians as a whole do not constitute nations and nowhere in the bible does it teach that. Sorry.
     
  13. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Ken, His death atoned for all sin. You are right, eventuallyall men will be saved. Some by redemption and most byJUDGMENT.Hebrews 2:6-9 continues this same teaching:6 But one [David] has testified somewhere [Psalm 8], saying, "What is man, that Thou rememberest him? Or the son of man, that Thou art concerned about him? 7 "Thou hast made him a little while lower than the angels; Thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, And hast appointed him over the works of Thy hands; 8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. "For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now [at present] we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.Here the author defines “all” as “everyone.” Not all are in subjection to Christ at the present time, but the day is coming when all men everywhere WILL be subject to Him. Meanwhile, the Scripture says, we see that Jesus tasted death for EVERYONE. “He left nothing that is NOT subject to Him.Paul refers to Psalm 8 again in Philippians 3:20 and 21.20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.Many Christians today have never really thought about whether Jesus really has this power or not. They assume that He is essentially powerless to save any but the firstfruits, a tiny portion of the harvest, because Jesus will not go against the will of man. But Jesus Himself said in John 12:32 that if He would die upon the cross, He would “draw” all men to Himself. The word “draw” is the Greek word, helkuo, which means “to drag.” As used in the New Testament, it always indicates that the one doing the dragging is imposing his will upon the ones being dragged.John 6:44 says no man can come to the Father except the Father DRAG him. John 12:32 says that Jesus will DRAG all men to Himself. John 21:6 speaks of dragging the net to bring the fish to shore. James 2:6 speaks of the civil magistrates, who, in persecuting the Christians, would DRAG them to court.It is apparent, then, that the day will come when God’s will is going to be imposed upon all men. He will drag all them to Himself by means of judgment, that is, the lake of fire. He has both the power and the will to do this.In Philippians 2:10,11, Paul says:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.John saw the fulfillment of this in a vision recorded in Revelation 5:13.13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."John well knew that the purpose of Christ’s rulership in His Kingdom was to draw all men to Himself. He wrote in 1 John 2:2,2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.Of this verse, Clement of Alexandria gives us a commentary on its meaning and scope in his Commentary on 1 John:“And not only for our sins, that is, for those of the faithful, is the Lord the Propitiator does he say, but also for the whole world. He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily He saves with dignity of honour; so that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, of things on earth, and things under the earth—that is, angels and men.”What a marvelous thing that Jesus would die not only for our sins (that is, for us as Christians), but also for the sins of the entire world! Surely the blood has not lost its power since then. Paul told Timothy (1 Tim. 4:10,11) to preach this as well.10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11 Prescribe and teach these things.Believers are especially singled out, because their salvation comes first. Theirs will be a greater honor, because they will inherit Life in the Kingdom. But yet, God is the Savior of ALL MEN. No doubt Timothy and others like him did indeed teach this in Asia Minor, for the early Church leaders in the next centuries were faithful to teach these things, as their writings prove.And today we are likewise exhorted to teach these things. Why? Because it is important to understand that God is truly righteous in His judgments. The usual teaching of endless torment makes God unjust. By what standard? By God’s standard, as revealed in His law. That is the only righteous standard in the earth. And for this reason we must know of the restoration of all things. [Acts 3:21]Logabe
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Ken, His death atoned for all sin. You are right, eventuallyall men will be saved. Some by redemption and most byJUDGMENT. ......Logabe
    It's not in my bible.Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.Luke 13:3, Luke 13:5 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
     
  15. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    fact is, nations are made up of individuals..... God is omniscient, he does not know abstract empty classes known as "nations" since there are no such empty classes to know.... there are real nations filled with the real individuals that make up those nations.... and He knows each and every individual that make up the class "nations"..... so God knows who (on an individual level) are His own, since He knows from before the foundation of the world each and every person that will be saved, so even speaking about nations as if God deals with these nations without dealing with the individuals that make up the nation makes no sense, it would deny god's omniscience.Genesis 35:11 (NASB) God also said to him, "I am God Almighty; Be fruitful and multiply; A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, And kings shall come forth from you. This verse beautifully proves the point... to be fruitful and multiply means that individuals must be fruitful..... and it these individuals who procreate which then produces the individuals that eventually make up enough persons to call a "nation" Just because this verse uses the word "nations", it hardly proves that God does not deal with individuals. In fact, this verse also mentions "kings", and kings are themselves, individuals. Again, God deals with Kings as individuals as well, He sovereignly controls them just as He does the individuals that make up the nations.... Kings: Proverbs 21:1 (ESV) The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will." Individuals: Proverbs 16:9 (ESV) The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Proverbs 16:33 (ESV) The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord. The Lord God is a sovereign God, this is my Father's world. Everything that has ever happened, happens now, or ever will happen, only will come to pass because God has either directly caused it, or allowed it, including the salvation of individuals. Don't try to kick against the goads on this issue, it will be of no use any wya, when man's will and God's will come up against one another, guess who prevails? So take comfort in your salvation if you are saved, for a sovereign God has saved you, and if so, there is no power anywher that can separate you from God, for it is God who holds on to you, not so much as you hold on to God, though that is of course true as well.blessings,Ken
     
  16. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Paul’s doctrine was clearly spelled out in Colossians 1:16-20.16 For by Him all things [ta panta, “the all”] were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things [ta panta, “the all”] have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things [ta panta, “the all”] to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.In this passage, Paul first defines “the all” as the created universe, both in heaven and on earth, including not only visible things like people, but even the invisible things like authority itself. Then Paul says that it was THE FATHER’S GOOD PLEASURE to reconcile all these things to Himself by the blood of Jesus. Can anything be clearer? This is not a hidden doctrine. No one needs to twist Paul’s words to understand this plain teaching. God hid it in plain sight.Logabe
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    fact is, nations are made up of individuals..... God is omniscient, he does not know abstract empty classes known as "nations" since there are no such empty classes to know.... there are real nations filled with the real individuals that make up those nations.... and He knows each and every individual that make up the class "nations"..... so God knows who (on an individual level) are His own, since He knows from before the foundation of the world each and every person that will be saved, so even speaking about nations as if God deals with these nations without dealing with the individuals that make up the nation makes no sense, it would deny god's omniscience.Genesis 35:11 (NASB) God also said to him, "I am God Almighty; Be fruitful and multiply; A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, And kings shall come forth from you. This verse beautifully proves the point... to be fruitful and multiply means that individuals must be fruitful..... and it these individuals who procreate which then produces the individuals that eventually make up enough persons to call a "nation" Just because this verse uses the word "nations", it hardly proves that God does not deal with individuals. In fact, this verse also mentions "kings", and kings are themselves, individuals. Again, God deals with Kings as individuals as well, He sovereignly controls them just as He does the individuals that make up the nations.... Kings: Proverbs 21:1 (ESV) The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will." Individuals: Proverbs 16:9 (ESV) The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Proverbs 16:33 (ESV) The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord. The Lord God is a sovereign God, this is my Father's world. Everything that has ever happened, happens now, or ever will happen, only will come to pass because God has either directly caused it, or allowed it, including the salvation of individuals. Don't try to kick against the goads on this issue, it will be of no use any wya, when man's will and God's will come up against one another, guess who prevails? So take comfort in your salvation if you are saved, for a sovereign God has saved you, and if so, there is no power anywher that can separate you from God, for it is God who holds on to you, not so much as you hold on to God, though that is of course true as well.blessings,Ken
    Are you for real ????????? What you don't think God can have a plan for a nation and its citizens jointly and individually
     
  18. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    heloo logabe..... you said "Ken, His death atoned for all sin. You are right, eventuallyall men will be saved. Some by redemption and most byJUDGMENT...... and "John 6:44 says no man can come to the Father except theFather DRAG him. John 12:32 says that Jesus will DRAG allmen to Himself. John 21:6 speaks of dragging the net tobring the fish to shore. James 2:6 speaks of the civilmagistrates, who, in persecuting the Christians, would DRAGthem to court.It is apparent, then, that the day will come when God’s will isgoing to be imposed upon all men. He will drag all them toHimself by means of judgment, that is, the lake of fire. He hasboth the power and the will to do this."It is apparent to me that God's will has always been imposed upon all men, God never relinquished His sovereignty, so far as I can tell..... your point on Jn 6:44 is partly right, except that you made a mistake when you paraphrased it.... it says John 6:44 (ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. " It does not say "no man can come to the Father except the Father DRAG him." Rather, it says no one can go to the Son unless the Father helkô (drag) them.... now the plain fact of history shows that not all go to the Son, and since not all go to the Son, apparently not all are "helkô" In other words, not all are saved, and the reason for this is that God grants mercy to some, as He sees fit, and He hardens as He sees fit, He is the potter, we are the clay, salvation is not based on man's running or willing, but on God who has mercy.....Romans 9:14-16 (ESV) 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Now I am not sure what you mean by people being saved by judgment. When the Lord Jesus says Matthew 10:15 (ESV) Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. " and Matthew 11:21-24 (ESV) 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.” ....... it just does not sound like He is speaking of persons being saved. You see, if people do not repent, they are judged as rejecting the Son. And everyone who rejects the Son is condemned, not saved through judgment. John 3:18 (ESV) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."blessings,Ken
     
  19. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Here you go Jordan,18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.It is self-evident that all men (NO EXCEPTIONS) were affected by Adam’s sin. All men were born mortal. In the same way, Jesus’ act of righteousness results in the justification of all those who died in Adam. Paul is talking about the same group of people.If Adam’s sin affected all men, and Jesus’ righteous act affected only a tiny fraction of men, then Jesus could hardly be compared to Adam. Surely Adam’s power is not greater than Jesus’ power! What do you think Jordan? The early Church did not think so, and it is time this teaching were restored to the body of Christ. It is time we restored this teaching to the Bible-believing Church. It is time we get a plain view of the power and will of God to be the Savior of all men, a God who loses nothing, but gathers up all the fragments of men throughout history, that none be lost (John 6:12). Now, if you want to believe in a godthat saves a few folk, go ahead, but that ain't JESUS. The question I want answered by all on this post is, who has themost power. The first Adam or THE LAST ADAM?The first brought all the creation down but most Christians say that Jesus don't have the power to bring them back up.What a weak god you serve.This is the great Mystery of the Gospel, what Paul calls “the secret of His will” in Ephesians 1:9.9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth. . . . 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, This is the secret; this is the “intention which He purposed in Him.” It is the plan for the created universe, “The All.” He will be King of kings and will subject all things under His headship.Logabe
     
  20. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    (Christina;65265)
    Are you for real ????????? What you don't think God can have a plan for a nation and its citizens jointly and individually
    I think I am for real.... are YOU for real?Of course God can have a plan for nations, the point is, nations are made up of individuals, or didn't you know that? Do you know of any nations that doesn't have individuals in it? Tell you what, you show me a nation NOT made up of individuals... ok? A plan for a nation is effected, carried out, on an individual level....that is, if a nation like Israel goes into captivity, it is individuals within the nation that go into captivity..... and the story of the bible is the story of these individuals (men like Daniel and Nehemiah, women like Esther) and their desire to be restored to their homes.... so when God restores the nation, it is individuals who are restored. The bible may speak of a nation being restored, but often it is not literally every single individual that lives within that nation who are restored, for in many cases, not every individual within that nation was carried off into captivity in the first place. Speaking of nations is just shorthand for speaking of many individuals within that nation who suffer the consequences of their actions. And surely when the bible says that all Israel will be saved, we now that it is not every single individual who is an Israelite that is saved, since Paul makes it clear that being a true Israelite is not a matter of belonging to a particular nation but is instead a matter of the heart.Romans 2:29 (ESV) But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 9:6-8 (ESV) 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Again, it is not nations in view, but children... individuals.... individuals who are inwardly true Jews, children of God.... for it is individuals who must repent and be baptized in order to be saved, nations can't repent because a "nation" is a concept, a group of people gathered together geographically, and since a nation does not have a soul, it cannot be saved, it is only the individuals within nations who are granted the ability to repent who can be saved.blessings,Ken
     
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