Taste death for every man

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Christina

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Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. doesnt sound like everyone is saved to me
 

Jordan

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Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. doesnt sound like everyone is saved to me
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

logabe

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All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. [PS. 22:27]How many will remember and return unto the Lord?Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. [PS. 2:8]Well, that's interesting. How many is the uttermost partsof the earth.For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.[Rom. 5:18]How many were made sinners? Hmmm, so how many will bemade righteous?For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.[1st Cor. 15:21]Did all die in Adam? That's easy to believe. It's very hard to believethat Jesus can make them alive.For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [Rom. 11:32]How are we saved? Not by works, but according to His MERCY He saves us.And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.Sounds like everybody to me. Are we missing something. Please, someone let me know what these scriptures mean.Logabe
 

Christina

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At the ends of the World all sin is gone Yes this is the End of this world and there is a new heaven and a new earth and there is no sin there all will worship the Lord that's not the same as all will be saved there are no contradictions in Gods word he says as I ve quoted above. Those who are judged not worthy at the Great White throne Judgement die the second death that is cease to exist you are talking apples and oranges here
 

epistemaniac

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re Rom 5:18ffROMANS 5:18–19—Does Paul teach universalism when he affirms that “many [all] will be made righteous”? MISINTERPRETATION: In Romans 5:18–19 Paul wrote: Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. [NIV] Many liberal and some neo-orthodox scholars, such as Karl Barth, insist that this passage teaches that everyone will eventually be saved. Is this a proper understanding of the text? CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: From these verses universalists infer that Christ’s death “for all” guarantees salvation “for all.” This conclusion, however, is contrary to the context here and in Romans as a whole as well as to the rest of Scripture. Even in this context Paul speaks of being “justified by faith” (5:1), not automatically by what Christ did for us. He also refers to salvation as a “gift” (5:16) that has to be received; in 5:17 he declares that salvation comes only to those who receive the gift of righteousness. The rest of the Book of Romans makes it unmistakably clear that not everyone will be saved. Romans 1–2 speaks of the heathen who are “without excuse” (Rom. 1:20) and upon whom the wrath of God falls (1:18). It declares that “as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law” (Rom. 2:12 NKJV). In the very heart of his argument Paul concludes that apart from justification by faith, the world is accountable before God (Rom. 3:19). Later, speaking of the destiny of both saved and lost, Paul affirms that “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23 NIV). Likewise, Paul recognized that, despite his prayers, not all of his kinsmen would be saved (Rom. 11:1–10) but that many would be “accursed” (Rom. 9:3). Indeed, the whole point of Romans is to show that only those who believe will be justified (Rom. 1:17; cf. 3:21–26). Romans 9 could not be clearer that only the elect, not everyone, will be saved (cf. 9:14–26). The rest God patiently endured, waiting for them to repent (2 Peter 3:9), so they would not be “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (Rom. 9:22 NKJV). Numerous passages elsewhere in Scripture speak of the eternal destiny of lost people, including the vivid passage at the end of Revelation when John said: And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books . . . and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. [Rev. 20:11–15 NIV] There simply is no evidence for universalism in Romans 5, and it is contrary to the clear teaching of other Scriptures. Since the Bible does not contradict itself, the verses that can be interpreted in more than one way must be understood in the light of those that cannot." (When Cultists Ask, A Popular Handbook on Cultic Misrepresentations by Norm Geisler and Ron Rhodes) "When we ask the question: Is it Pauline to posit universal salvation? the answer must be decisively negative (cf. 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). Hence we cannot interpret the apodosis in verse 18 in the sense of inclusive universalism, and it is consistent with sound canons of interpretation to assume a restrictive implication. In 1 Cor. 15:22 Paul says, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". As the context will demonstrate the apostle is here dealing with the resurrection to life, with those who are Christ's and will be raised at his coming. The "all" of the second clause is therefore restrictive in a way that the "all" in the first clause is not. In like manner in Rom. 5:18 we may and must recognize a restriction in the "all men" of the apodosis that is not present in the "all men" of the protasis. What the apostle is interested in showing is not the numerical extent of those who are justified as identical with the numerical extent of those condemned but the parallel that obtains between the way of condemnation and the way of justification. It is the modus operandi that is in view. All who are condemned, and this includes the whole human race, are condemned because of the one trespass of Adam; all who are justified are justified because of the righteousness of Christ. But we are not to give to justification the denotative extent of condemnation, and the parallel does not demand this.(The Epistle to the Romans, John Murray)"We can understand that one trespass resulted for all men in condemnation, but what does the apostle mean when he states that also for all men one act of righteousness resulted in life-imparting justification? If in the first case "all men" means absolutely everybody, does not logic demand that in the second instance of its use it has the same meaning? The answer is:a. The apostle has made very clear in previous passages that salvation is for believers, for them alone (1:16, 17; 3:21-25, etc.).b. He has emphasized this also in this very context: those alone who "receive the overflowing fulness of grace and of the gift of righteousness" will reign in life (verse 17).c. In a passage which is similar to 5:18, and to which reference has been made earlier, the apostle himself explains what he means by "all" or "all men" who are going to be saved and participate in a glorious resurrection. That passage is:"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward those who are Christ's, at his coming" (I Cor. 15:22, 23). Here it is clearly stated that the "all" who will be made alive are "those who are Christ's," that is, those who belong to him.(Baker New Testament Commentary)"Paul returned to the comparison he began in v. 12 but never finished. His comparison takes the “Just as A, so also B” form. The contrasting elements are clearly set over against one another:“One trespass” — “One act of righteousness”“Condemnation” — “Justification”“All men [in Adam]” — “All men [in Christ]”Just as the one sin of Adam brought condemnation, so also did the one righteous act of Christ bring justification. Just as condemnation spread to all, so also is the divine acquittal offered to all. Paul did not intend to imply that the result of Christ's atoning work automatically provided justification for all regardless of their willingness to accept it. Universal salvation is not taught in this text. Context indicates that Paul was comparing the fate of those who are in Adam (the position of all by virtue of their birth into the human race) and the blessings of those who are in Christ (the position of all who have responded in faith). (New American Commentary)"As with the many in verse 15, Paul apparently uses all in verse 18 for the sake of parallelism, although the two occurrences of the term carry different meanings. Just as "the many died" in verse 15 refers inclusively to all men, so life to all men here refers exclusively to those who trust in Christ. This verse does not teach universalism, as some have contended through the centuries. It is abundantly clear from other parts of this epistle, including the first two verses of this chapter, that salvation comes only to those who have faith in Jesus Christ (see also 1:16-17; 3:22, 28; 4:5, 13). (MacArthur New Testament Commentary)"Moo (1996:342-44) shows why for all does not mean universal salvation, as some have interpreted it. In verses 15 and 19 Paul uses the many to show that salvation is given only to those who receive God's abundant provision of grace (v. 17) by faith (3:21-4:25). So when he uses all men here, he does not mean every human being but rather is saying "that Christ effects those who are his just as certainly as Adam does those who are his." While all are in Adam, it is clear in Romans that only those who believe are in Christ. (The IVP New Testament Commentary Series)"In vs 18-19 Paul finally states the full comparison between Adam and Christ. The verses are parallel, each of them comparing the way in which Adam's trespass/disobedience has brought condemnation and sinfulness to the way in which Christ's one act of righteousness/obedience has brought justification and righteousness. But does the parallel between them extend to the universal effects of these results? This might seem to be the case, since Paul asserts in v 18 that the effects of both Adam's act and Christ's extends to all men. Yet Paul elsewhere plainly repudiates the idea that all people will be saved (e.g. Rom. 2:12; 2 Thes. 1:8-9), and v 17 also makes clear that it is only those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and the gift of righteousness who will reign in life. Therefore, we must understand the universalism of v 18 in terms of the representative significance of each individual: the effects of Christ's action extend to all who belong to him, just as the effects of Adam's action extend to all who belong to him. All people, without exception, belong to Adam (v 12); but only those who come to faith, who 'receive the gift', belong to Christ (see also 1 Cor. 15:22-23). (New Bible Commentary)"Verse (Ro 5)17 provides a clue that the grace of Christ is not dispensed universally to all people without exception. Reigning in life is a reality for “those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.” Bultmann (1962: 158) contends that the substantival participle οἱ λαμβάνοντες (hoi lambanontes, those who receive) indicates that not all are in Christ but only those who have chosen to belong to him (cf. Bornkamm 1952: 87; Morris 1988: 240; Ridderbos 1975: 340–41; Stott 1994: 159). This fits with Paul’s insistence that faith is necessary for a person to be in Christ.Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Vol. 6: Romans. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (291). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.C. Universalism (5:18)Universalism, extending back to the earliest centuries of the church, is the erroneous belief that ultimately all human beings will be restored back to a right relationship with God for eternity. Some universalists have held that this occurs at death, some after a time of punishment. But ultimately, all will be restored. In addition to a misreading of the passages under consideration in this chapter (Rom. 5:18–19), universalists have appealed to verses such as Ephesians 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:22. Their most impassioned plea is a logical one, not a biblical one: since all were lost in Adam, all will be restored in Christ. While bearing the weight of logic, the premise does not bear the weight of language. “All” does not always mean “all without exception.”In Peter’s quotation of Joel’s prophecy on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17; Joel 2:28–32), Peter does not mean that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out on all people in the world. Rather, it is clear from the early part of Acts 2 that “representatives” of all the world is meant: people regardless of nation, age, race, etc. Likewise, when Luke says that “all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord” (Acts 19:10), he did not mean every living human being; rather, he meant Jews and Greeks representing all the parts of the province of Asia (see also Acts 1:1, 19; 2:47; 3:9, 11 and many other verses in the New Testament).Other reasons why the “all = all” correlation does not work in the case of salvation are:1. Because all people are physically linked to Adam does not mean that all people are automatically spiritually linked to Christ. Being physically linked to Adam required no choice; being spiritually linked to Christ requires a choice (John 1:12).2. Romans 5:17 makes “receiving” a qualification for reigning.3. New Testament warnings against wrath and judgment would be meaningless in the face of universalism even for those who hold to punishment followed by restoration. The New Testament does not support the concept of temporary punishment (purgatory).4. Justification follows faith, not death (Rom. 4:1). In fact, what follows death is judgment, which does not bode well for those anticipating universal restoration (Heb. 9:27).Boa, K., & Kruidenier, W. (2000). Vol. 6: Romans. Holman New Testament Commentary; Holman Reference (176). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.blessings,Ken
 

logabe

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B]that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God[/B]. [Rom. 8:21]Now come Christina, you have to give me a better answerthan that. Did God create everything? Paul said, not me orman, but Paul...the creation will one day be set FREE fromthe slavery of SIN. Give me a GOOD ANSWER. I'm askingyou again... DID GOD CREATE ALL MEN AND WOMEN? If youranswer is yes and it should be...Paul said, not Logabe, they weregoing to be set FREE.Logabe
 

Christina

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I'm not reading your long copy and paste article I know what scripture says may.. I remind you of the unforgivable sin ...that alone disproves your theroy ..so twist scripture with mens ideas all you want I know what God says I know what the second death is ..I know what I never knew you ...means but hey keep fooling yourself
 

Christina

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Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to comeOriginally Posted by Christina Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

logabe

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Christina, Ken, or Jordan did not answer my question...Paul said, not me...Paul said, the creation will be set FREE into the glorious libertyof the children of God. Quit twisting the scriptures and start answeringthe questions.Is the first Adam more POWERFUL than JESUS? Don't beat around the bush.According to your theory JESUS loses most of the creation but Paul says,ALL [ta panta] WILL BE SET FREE into the glorious liberty of the childrenof God. Do you know the difference between your doctrine and mine? You believethat I am a heretic and I am going to hell or going to be destroyed but I believed that your doctrine is wrong and you are still going to make it by the grace of God. NOW THAT'S GOOD NEWS.I am not mad @ you but I would like you to answer my question and quitbeating around the bush and twisting the scriptures. You know what Petersaid about that. Now you better be nice.Logabe
 

logabe

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Ken, tell Christina what world means in Mathew 12:32. Jesus toldus to forgive our enemies but you say... God can't forgive His enemies.Am I missing something here? You say, He is going to send them tohell or just destroy them.Why would Jesus tell us to forgive people who trespass against us butHe can't "according to you" forgive people that trespass against Him. Could you explain that for me please.Logabe
 

Christina

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I quoted the scripture direct from the bible how can It be twisted? It is you who are causing the contradictions so please don't lecture me your going to believe what you like thats fine by me. I quoted the book thats straight from the horse mouth,... you are interpreting what you think Paul means ...so who is the twister? read Rev.21 that's when all sin is gone. If your right... why bother to have a flesh age at all ..just forgive us all ...and why do we have to be here?... Why have a great White throne Judgement or a second death or a firt resurrection..at all just forgive everyone and end it ... if thats your belief carry on, but its not what scripture says Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to comeWhat part of it shall not be forgiven are you not understanding.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. If that's twisting then you are accusing God of it not me..I didnt translate nor take out of context its just straight the Word.PS I don't think you are heretic I believe about half of what you post, I think your a good christian ..that is like most so steeped in men's doctrine.. you cant see the scriptures without your mens interpretations, I judge this by your posts, that are for the most part a mans interptation of what they think a scipture says one verse 50 words of man to interpt. your doctrine/posts are no different than the a SDA or the Pentecostal or any other of men's religions /doctrine you have latched on to a few verse's are convinced that they say what you believe and will completely ignore all scripture to the contrary that would challenge your belief. I believe every single scripture is a part of a whole not One can be ignored, to do that you need to understand on a whole (see the whole picture)as well as by chapter by chapter and verse, there are no major contradictions if you find one then we have something wrong. You just dont brush it aside so you can maintain your belief. This is man's way. And it has lead to Amos 8:11-12 coming to pass.
 

tim_from_pa

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I have always used Romans 8:19-21 to show that the rest of creation, besides man, will be restored. (The part of man that will be restored are the sons of God) As Paul taught:For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.That phrase explains what part of creation we are talking about "not willingly". Adam's sin dragged him and the whole of creation with him. That's because Adam was created to be over this world, and now Christ came to do what Adam failed at being. Adam sinned willingly, the rest of creation did not.I use this to comfort children whose pets have died, that they will be restored one day.I have this theory as to which animals in creation will be raised. It is based on biblical theology but nothing directly says it. Any animal that sleeps and raises again is candidate. Disgusting things like maggots will not because they no doubt resulted from the fall as a means to decay and destruction. They were created as a vessel unto destruction themselves. However, higher animals like cattle and pets will be. (I have an answer to bodily functions as well
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)Before anyone digs into me for believing this, when was the last time you took a concept from the bible and had an original thought without regards to what the church or someone else teaches? Go to the lounge and take my test (betcha they'd score low).
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epistemaniac

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Christina, Ken, or Jordan did not answer my question...Paul said, not me...Paul said, the creation will be set FREE into the glorious libertyof the children of God. Quit twisting the scriptures and start answeringthe questions.Is the first Adam more POWERFUL than JESUS? Don't beat around the bush.According to your theory JESUS loses most of the creation but Paul says,ALL [ta panta] WILL BE SET FREE into the glorious liberty of the childrenof God. Do you know the difference between your doctrine and mine? You believethat I am a heretic and I am going to hell or going to be destroyed but I believed that your doctrine is wrong and you are still going to make it by the grace of God. NOW THAT'S GOOD NEWS.I am not mad @ you but I would like you to answer my question and quitbeating around the bush and twisting the scriptures. You know what Petersaid about that. Now you better be nice.Logabe
you can read all sort so things back into the text that are not there in order to support preconceived notions, the Children of God see in Ro. 8:21 the right to have open sex outside of marriage.... Universalism sees that all will be saved, but neither of things are explicitly mentioned at all. The passage says Romans 8:18-25 (ESV) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."Notice that Paul says it is "we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the spirit' that are in mind. and who are these but those who are saved, those who are already Christians. Christians have been given a "deposit", the sealing by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their future total redemption. Christians are saved now, but while here on the earth we struggle and war against the flesh, we groan as we long for the day of eventual glorification, when both Christians and nature itself will finally no longer be subjected to futility, under the effects of the fall. And so as v 21 notes, the emphasis here is on "the creation itself", ie nature, being restored, not an eventual salvation for all humans. To say otherwise is to engage in esiogesis rather than responsible exegesis, a reading into the text something (the Universalist's hope that all will be saved) that is simply not there."8:20–21 Paul spoke of the creation being “subjected to frustration” (v. 20). That was not because of some inherent fault in creation but because that is what God decided. In punishment for his disobedience, Adam was to garner his food from ground cursed with thorns and thistles. But the curse was not permanent. The physical universe was frustrated by Adam's sin, yet there is hope. Verse 21 states the content of that hope. The day is coming when the created order will be set free from its bondage to decay. Freed from corruption, it will share in “the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (literal translation). The scene is eschatological. Some have suggested that this points to life during the millennium, but it is better to see it as the entire created universe celebrating together the glorious state of final redemption and restoration. Paul's use of personification is striking. As sin brought the curse of death to the physical universe, the day is coming when a new heaven and earth will be in place (2 Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1). They will take their place with the children of God in the perfect freedom of a sinless universe.—New American Commentary "Creation does not here include the heavenly angels, who, although created beings, are not subject to corruption. The term obviously does not include Satan and his host of fallen angels, the demons. They have no desire for a godly, sinless state and know they are divinely sentenced to eternal torment. Believers are not included in that term either, because they are mentioned separately in verses 23-25. Nor is Paul referring to unbelievers. The only remaining part of creation is the nonrational part, including animals and plants and all inanimate things such as the mountains, rivers, plains, seas, and heavenly bodies.Jews were familiar with such a personification of nature. Isaiah had used it when he wrote that "The wilderness and the desert will be glad, and the Arabah will rejoice and blossom" (Isa. 35:1), and later that "the mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands" (55:12).—MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The"Phillips has, "The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God's purpose it has been so limited—yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay, and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God!"—Life Application Bible Commentary"Corruption is the worst slavery, glory the highest and the most perfect liberty. Corruption explains vainness by stating what is at the bottom of the failure of the creation, namely decay and death. Its opposite is incorruption; but instead of using this negative term Paul uses the positive term "the glory" which was used in v. 18 and is now emphatic because of its repetition. This is the eternal glory, the effulgence of perfection that never declines or ends.It belongs to the children of God. They alone are the children (sons); such a designation does not apply to the creature world. It shares in this liberty only because of its connection with these children. No hope of liberty and of glory exists for the ungodly; hence the future of the creation is not bound up with them, and not a word is said here about them. So the creation, too, will at last be glorified. What Paul says about it in this section settles the question raised by other passages: Ps. 102:27; II Pet. 3:10; Rev. 20:11; Isa. 34:4; Luke 21:33; Job 14:12, as to whether the creature world will finally be annihilated. "The liberty of the glory" cannot have a double meaning: blessed, eternal glory for the children of God, annihilation for the creation. To call the latter a liberation is an odd use of language. It has been well said that not the κόσμος itself will pass away but only the σχῆμα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (I Cor. 7:31), the form of this present world. The fire mentioned by Peter must be the fire of purification. The "new heaven and the new earth" mentioned in Rev. 21:1 are not νέος, newly created and never having existed before, but καινός, new in contrast with old, different from what heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1) formerly were. Rev. 21 states that the present separation of the Holy City from the earth shall end in a union of both. "Behold, I make all things new, καινά." The teaching of the entire Scripture is to the effect that God's plans are never defeated, that he does not replace but restore.—Lenski New Testament CommentaryVs 19-25, whose key words are wait eagerly (vs 19, 23 and 25) and hope (vs 20, 24-25), show that Christians, along with the entire creation, have to wait for God's work to be completed. Paul follows OT precedent (Ps. 65:12-13; Isa. 24:4; Je. 4:28; 12:4) in personifying the entire subhuman creation: it groans in frustration (vs 20, 22) and anticipates eagerly the day when our status as God's children will be finalized and made public (vs 19, 21). What makes it clear that Paul does not include angels and human beings in his purview is the fact that the frustration now experienced by the creation did not come about by its own choice (v 20). It came, rather, by the will of the one who subjected it (v 20), i.e. God, who decreed a curse on the earth as a result of Adam's sin (Gn. 3:17-18; cf. 1 Cor. 15:27). But the decree of subjection was always accompanied by hope that God would one day make his creation what he originally intended it to be, a place where 'the wolf will live with the lamb' (Isa. 11:6). We Christians share creation's groaning and hope (v 23), for we possess the Spirit as the first fruits, the downpayment and pledge of our final redemption, and this causes us all the more to long for the finishing of God's work in us. What is often called the NT 'already—not—yet' tension between what God has already done for the believer and what he has yet to do is very evident when we compare v 23 with vs 14-17. For the 'sonship' we are there said to possess is here tied to the redemption of our bodies and made the object of hope and expectation. Such hope is the very essence of our salvation. We must, therefore, wait patiently for what God has promised (vs 24-25).—New Bible CommentaryWell.... there you have it, an answer has been given to you.... you don't have to like the answer, you don't have to agree with the answer. Suffice it to say, from my perspective, an analysis of the passage and the surrounding verses does not give any reason to support the Universalist's claim regarding this passage teaching that all one day will be saved, the purview of the passage is the creation, eg nature, and not angels or humans.blessings,Ken
 

epistemaniac

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Ken, tell Christina what world means in Mathew 12:32. Jesus toldus to forgive our enemies but you say... God can't forgive His enemies.Am I missing something here? You say, He is going to send them tohell or just destroy them.Why would Jesus tell us to forgive people who trespass against us butHe can't "according to you" forgive people that trespass against Him. Could you explain that for me please.Logabe
God does not forgive those who do not repent..."In the Sermon on the Mount our Lord taught his disciples, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you" (Matthew 5:44). Above all others Christ practiced what he preached. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. He not only taught the truth but was himself the truth incarnate. Said he, "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6). So here on the cross he perfectly exemplified his teaching of the mount. In all things he has left us an example.Notice Christ did not personally forgive his enemies. So in Matthew 5:44 he did not exhort his disciples to forgive their enemies, but he does exhort them to "pray" for them. But are we not to forgive those who wrong us? This leads us to a point concerning which there is much need for instruction today.Does scripture teach that under all circumstances we must always forgive? I answer emphatically, it does not. The word of God says, "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, 1 repeat, thou shalt forgive him" (Luke 17:3,4). Here we are plainly taught that a condition must be met by the offender before we may pronounce forgiveness. The one who has wronged us must first "repent", that is, judge himself for his wrong and give evidence of his sorrow over it. But suppose the offender does not repent? Then 1 am not to forgive him.But let there be no misunderstanding of our meaning here. Even though the one who has wronged me does not repent, nevertheless, I must not harbor ill-feelings against him. There must be no hatred or malice cherished in the heart. Yet, on the other hand, I must not treat the offender as if he had done no wrong. That would be to condone the offence, and therefore I should fail to uphold the requirements of righteousness, and this the believer is ever to do. Does God ever forgive where there is no repentance? No, for scripture declares, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). One thing more. If one has injured me and repented not, while I cannot forgive him and treat him as though he had not offended, nevertheless, not only must! hold no malice in my heart against him, but I must also pray for him. Here is the value of Christ’s perfect example. If we cannot forgive, we can pray for God to forgive him." (Seven Sayings of the Savior on the Cross, AW Pink)blessings,Ken
 

logabe

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The Achan Doctrine has troubled the Church at least as far back as the sixth century, when the Church Council first began to condemn those who believed in the restoration of all things. The doctrine of eternal torment of the sinners was certainly held by a small minority of Christians for the first few centuries. Nonetheless, this teaching began fairly early, mostly in the Latin branch of the Church. One Christian leader who apparently believed this was the stern and bitter Latin father, Terullian. In 203 A.D. he wrote the following:"How I shall admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many kings. . . groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness, so many magistrates who persecuted the name of the Lord, liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against Christians; so many sage philosophers blushing in raging fire." (de Spectaculis, 30)Thank God most people who have been taught the doctrine of eternal torment would never say such things! Most are simply victims of Church theologians, who themselves are victims of a long succession of eternal tormentists. Such writings can only come from one who is "in the gall of bitterness" (Acts 8:23). According to Strong's Concordance, the word translated "gall" is actually the poppy plant. Wormwood is opium that comes from the poppy. Jesus refused to drink it even on the cross (Matt. 27:34), in order to teach us not to harbor bitterness in our hearts, no matter how trying our circumstances become. Bitterness drugs the mind and prevents us from putting on the mind of Christ. It prevents us from truly understanding the law of Jubilee, which is necessary to inherit the first resurrection. The Roman government often persecuted the early Christians. Many were tortured, killed, and often fed to the lions for sport. Most of the early Church looked to Jesus' example in His lamb-like attitude toward their persecutors. However, some of them turned bitter. Tertullian, quoted earlier, gloried in the thought that someday God would torture his adversaries and give them what they deserved. He did not have the mind of Christ. He did not know the power of forgiveness and love. In His famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said in Matthew 5,43 You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy." 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you 45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.When Jesus speaks of "sons," it is a Hebrew idiom. The Hebrew idiom in this case means that "sons" are those who imitate their fathers. Sons of Abraham are those who imitate his faith. The sons of the heavenly Father are those who do good to their enemies, even as God does by sending rain and sunshine upon both the righteous and the unrighteous. This is God's character trait in His genes, which He desires to pass down to His children.Yes, of course, this means that the just will always be at a disadvantage in the world. Do not the wolves always have a natural advantage over the sheep? But the Achan Doctrine would scold God for His attitude toward His enemies. Those with the spirit of Achan would exult in the sinners' utter destruction or eternal torture.This carnal attitude was foreign to the great Christians of the past who believed in the restoration of all things. Men like Gregory of Nyassa, the man described as "the man enchanted with Christ" (The Fathers of the Eastern Church, p. 169). His treatise on 1 Cor. 15:28 is magnificent. One only needs to read the writings of the early Church to see a tremendous difference in attitude between the restorationists and the champions of eternal torment who troubled them.Logabe
 

savedbygrace57

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I think you don't understand the fact that without a physical, this is no such thing as a spiritual.
actually its the other way around..
 

HammerStone

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God does not forgive those who do not repent...
Bingo, it's conditional.II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Some folks seem to like to overlook that when God speaks. His covenants are 100% conditional, meaning you hold up your end of the bargain - which arguably is not a whole lot (though some make it seem that way).
 

Jordan

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...I think you don't understand the fact that without a physical, this is no such thing as a spiritual. ...
actually its the other way around..Care to show me scriptures in God's Way that you can a spiritual out of nothing?
 

savedbygrace57

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Care to show me scriptures in God's Way that you can a spiritual out of nothing?
i would, but i percieve you reject scripture in favor of your human reasoning, the very fact that you made the statement you already made, tells me that..showing you scripture isnt going to change your mind, you need to be born again..