The 144,000 Issue

[texian]

The 144,000 Issue

The 144,000 are found in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. And Daniel 11: 33 can be applied to the 144,000. The background of the discussion of the 144,000 on this thread, and for many such discussions, is that the traditional amillennialist view of them by the Catholic Church and by many Calvinists is that they represent all the saved ones of all ages. I know that amillennialism refers to a rejection of the thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the end time tribulation. But a similar tendency to use brad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times.

But the dispensationalist view, following their honoring of all Israel and their literalist system of interpretation is that they are all Jews.

On a Christian forum a member said of the 144,000 that: "Of course they
are Christians, but they are Israelites that converted
to Christianity."

Do you mean the 144,000 all belong to Messianic Judaism, who mix the
old and new covenants? Mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant
is of the spirit of anti-Christ, and is very possibly an important end
time apostasy.

In the New Testament, there is no longer a chosen people based on
race, that is, on physical descent from Abraham (Galatians 3: 16,
28-29). Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who
have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the
New Covenant, unless they are born again (John 3: 1-6). "He taketh
away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

Revelation 7: 1-8 has to be interpreted by New Testament scripture,
not by a man made theology which starts from a position of honoring
all Israel, the saved Remnant and the unsaved majority. One very
relevant New Testament scripture is Romans 2: 28-29.

We don't know exactly where we are in the timeline leading to the
return of Christ, so we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will began
their ministry.

Christ says in Matthew 24: 21 that "...for there shall be then
tribulation great such as not has been from the beginning of the world
until now..." This is from the George Berry Interlinear, 1958

For the Westcott-Hort Greek text, which is the basis for almost all
recent translations, used more by the dispensationalists, but not by
all of them, there is also no article in front of the Greek word
thlipis, or tribulation.

There is no article in front of tribulation, no "THE great
tribulation." There will be great tribulation during the last years
of this age before Christ returns. The dispensationalist seven year
tribulation is an inference from and interpretation of Daniel 9: 27.
We might have reason to believe that tribulation during the last
years and months of this age will get worse and worse.

So, we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will begin their work. But
there is now a Remnant who contend for the faith once delivered to the
saints.

When Christ was born as a man and began his ministry, he did not work
from within
the religious establishment of his time. The religious establishment
then were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He said "...beware of the
leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." (Matthew 16: 11).

Christ and his disciples operated out in the metaphoric wilderness and
often in the literal one, outside of organized society.

Just as the majority on the broad way went into apostasy not once but
several times during the Old Covenant, so the organization now
claiming to be the Body of Christ, different from Israel reborn in
Christ, has gone into apostasy, which is the falling away (II
Thessalonians 2: 3-4). Luke 13:21 says leaven was hid in three
measues of meal, until the whole was leavened. The whole what? The
institution claiming to be the Body of Christ, the "church" was said
to become leavened - over time.

Revelation 18: 4 is then applied to the leavened "church"and to its
condition after the falling away. "Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues." "Her" refers back to Revelation 17: 1-11.

The 144,000 are not members of the "church." They have already come
out of "her," and are in the metaphoric wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,
14). Likewise, the Remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10: 21-22, Zephaniah 3:
12-13, Revelation 12: 17) during the last years of this age are not
part of the "church," but are out in the metaphoric wilderness, like
Christ was during his ministry on earth.

The question is, If a Christian were to become free of the influence
of amillennialism and/or dispensationalism would he still resist the
144,000 being a group called out for a mission during tribulation, who
are born again and who follow the doctrines of the New Testament?
Following the doctrines of the New Testament means they are not
relying upon their genetic identity for entry into the group. Many of
the qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are given in Revelation
14: 4-5. And - saying they are "virgins" does not mean they are
literal virgins; it is a metaphor saying they are not under bondage to
the figure described in Revelation 17: 1-11, Mystery Babylon the
Great, Babylon as religion.

The qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are also given, in part,
in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, on the Remnant of Israel, and some of these
qualifications are the same as in Revelation 14: 4-5.

If someone resists Daniel 11: 33 as applying to the mission of the
144,000 this is interesting, and the resistance too may come out of
dispensationalism. I am not completely sure why dispensationalism
would oppose the use of Daniel 11 to apply to any end time events -
except that the founders and shakers of dispensationalism and
celebrities like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye do not make use of Daniel
11, as far as I know. The North Versus South focus of Daniel 11 may
not fit the dispensationalist end time prophecy scenarios. To make it
fit, they might have to revise some of their standard scenarios
described by my one of my Facebook friends as fables of comic book theology.
Chris recently posted a kind of legal-like letter his church sent him,
booting him out of their ekklesia, or "church." That was two years
ago. Apparently he didn't go willingly out of the "church;" he was
kicked out.

 

[whirlwind]

The 144,000 Issue

The 144,000 are found in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. And Daniel 11: 33 can be applied to the 144,000. The background of the discussion of the 144,000 on this thread, and for many such discussions, is that the traditional amillennialist view of them by the Catholic Church and by many Calvinists is that they represent all the saved ones of all ages. I know that amillennialism refers to a rejection of the thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the end time tribulation. But a similar tendency to use brad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times.

But the dispensationalist view, following their honoring of all Israel and their literalist system of interpretation is that they are all Jews.

On a Christian forum a member said of the 144,000 that: "Of course they
are Christians, but they are Israelites that converted
to Christianity."

Do you mean the 144,000 all belong to Messianic Judaism, who mix the
old and new covenants? Mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant
is of the spirit of anti-Christ, and is very possibly an important end
time apostasy.

In the New Testament, there is no longer a chosen people based on
race, that is, on physical descent from Abraham (Galatians 3: 16,
28-29). Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who
have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the
New Covenant, unless they are born again (John 3: 1-6). "He taketh
away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

Revelation 7: 1-8 has to be interpreted by New Testament scripture,
not by a man made theology which starts from a position of honoring
all Israel, the saved Remnant and the unsaved majority. One very
relevant New Testament scripture is Romans 2: 28-29.

To address a few of your statements:


1. The 144,000 represent all the saved ones of all ages.

My understanding is that it refers to those in the last days, not those of all ages. I say this as there is the need of them being sealed before the end can begin.


2. Israelites that converted to Christianity.

The house of Judah are...Jews. The house of Israel are...Christians. All are Israelites. Even if a Jew did convert they would still be of Judah which can be their faith, their race, or their location.


3. Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the New Covenant

I must disagree for our Father tell us:


Ezekiel 37:19-24 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.

The 144,000 are not members of the "church." They have already come
out of "her," and are in the metaphoric wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,
14). Likewise, the Remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10: 21-22, Zephaniah 3:
12-13, Revelation 12: 17) during the last years of this age are not
part of the "church," but are out in the metaphoric wilderness, like
Christ was during his ministry on earth.

We are His church, whether we belong to a religion/church or not. We are His temple in which He dwells. My understanding is that the request to "come out of her My people," was for us to leave the world behind. Does that also mean various denominations? Yes, I think it does if they are of the world.

The question is, If a Christian were to become free of the influence
of amillennialism and/or dispensationalism would he still resist the
144,000 being a group called out for a mission during tribulation, who
are born again and who follow the doctrines of the New Testament?
Following the doctrines of the New Testament means they are not
relying upon their genetic identity for entry into the group. Many of
the qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are given in Revelation
14: 4-5. And - saying they are "virgins" does not mean they are
literal virgins; it is a metaphor saying they are not under bondage to
the figure described in Revelation 17: 1-11, Mystery Babylon the
Great, Babylon as religion.

The qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are also given, in part,
in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, on the Remnant of Israel, and some of these
qualifications are the same as in Revelation 14: 4-5.

If someone resists Daniel 11: 33 as applying to the mission of the
144,000 this is interesting, and the resistance too may come out of
dispensationalism. I am not completely sure why dispensationalism
would oppose the use of Daniel 11 to apply to any end time events -
except that the founders and shakers of dispensationalism and
celebrities like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye do not make use of Daniel
11, as far as I know. The North Versus South focus of Daniel 11 may
not fit the dispensationalist end time prophecy scenarios. To make it
fit, they might have to revise some of their standard scenarios
described by my one of my Facebook friends as fables of comic book theology.
Chris recently posted a kind of legal-like letter his church sent him,
booting him out of their ekklesia, or "church." That was two years
ago. Apparently he didn't go willingly out of the "church;" he was
kicked out.

Please understand....there are two different groups of the 144,000. One consists of the tribes, all twelve. The others, the virgins were redeemed from the earth.



.

 

[Episkopos]

The 144,000 Issue

The 144,000 are found in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. And Daniel 11: 33 can be applied to the 144,000. The background of the discussion of the 144,000 on this thread, and for many such discussions, is that the traditional amillennialist view of them by the Catholic Church and by many Calvinists is that they represent all the saved ones of all ages. I know that amillennialism refers to a rejection of the thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the end time tribulation. But a similar tendency to use brad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times.

But the dispensationalist view, following their honoring of all Israel and their literalist system of interpretation is that they are all Jews.

On a Christian forum a member said of the 144,000 that: "Of course they
are Christians, but they are Israelites that converted
to Christianity."

Do you mean the 144,000 all belong to Messianic Judaism, who mix the
old and new covenants? Mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant
is of the spirit of anti-Christ, and is very possibly an important end
time apostasy.

In the New Testament, there is no longer a chosen people based on
race, that is, on physical descent from Abraham (Galatians 3: 16,
28-29). Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who
have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the
New Covenant, unless they are born again (John 3: 1-6). "He taketh
away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

Revelation 7: 1-8 has to be interpreted by New Testament scripture,
not by a man made theology which starts from a position of honoring
all Israel, the saved Remnant and the unsaved majority. One very
relevant New Testament scripture is Romans 2: 28-29.

We don't know exactly where we are in the timeline leading to the
return of Christ, so we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will began
their ministry.

Christ says in Matthew 24: 21 that "...for there shall be then
tribulation great such as not has been from the beginning of the world
until now..." This is from the George Berry Interlinear, 1958

For the Westcott-Hort Greek text, which is the basis for almost all
recent translations, used more by the dispensationalists, but not by
all of them, there is also no article in front of the Greek word
thlipis, or tribulation.

There is no article in front of tribulation, no "THE great
tribulation." There will be great tribulation during the last years
of this age before Christ returns. The dispensationalist seven year
tribulation is an inference from and interpretation of Daniel 9: 27.
We might have reason to believe that tribulation during the last
years and months of this age will get worse and worse.

So, we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will begin their work. But
there is now a Remnant who contend for the faith once delivered to the
saints.

When Christ was born as a man and began his ministry, he did not work
from within
the religious establishment of his time. The religious establishment
then were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He said "...beware of the
leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." (Matthew 16: 11).

Christ and his disciples operated out in the metaphoric wilderness and
often in the literal one, outside of organized society.

Just as the majority on the broad way went into apostasy not once but
several times during the Old Covenant, so the organization now
claiming to be the Body of Christ, different from Israel reborn in
Christ, has gone into apostasy, which is the falling away (II
Thessalonians 2: 3-4). Luke 13:21 says leaven was hid in three
measues of meal, until the whole was leavened. The whole what? The
institution claiming to be the Body of Christ, the "church" was said
to become leavened - over time.

Revelation 18: 4 is then applied to the leavened "church"and to its
condition after the falling away. "Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues." "Her" refers back to Revelation 17: 1-11.

The 144,000 are not members of the "church." They have already come
out of "her," and are in the metaphoric wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,
14). Likewise, the Remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10: 21-22, Zephaniah 3:
12-13, Revelation 12: 17) during the last years of this age are not
part of the "church," but are out in the metaphoric wilderness, like
Christ was during his ministry on earth.

The question is, If a Christian were to become free of the influence
of amillennialism and/or dispensationalism would he still resist the
144,000 being a group called out for a mission during tribulation, who
are born again and who follow the doctrines of the New Testament?
Following the doctrines of the New Testament means they are not
relying upon their genetic identity for entry into the group. Many of
the qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are given in Revelation
14: 4-5. And - saying they are "virgins" does not mean they are
literal virgins; it is a metaphor saying they are not under bondage to
the figure described in Revelation 17: 1-11, Mystery Babylon the
Great, Babylon as religion.

The qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are also given, in part,
in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, on the Remnant of Israel, and some of these
qualifications are the same as in Revelation 14: 4-5.

If someone resists Daniel 11: 33 as applying to the mission of the
144,000 this is interesting, and the resistance too may come out of
dispensationalism. I am not completely sure why dispensationalism
would oppose the use of Daniel 11 to apply to any end time events -
except that the founders and shakers of dispensationalism and
celebrities like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye do not make use of Daniel
11, as far as I know. The North Versus South focus of Daniel 11 may
not fit the dispensationalist end time prophecy scenarios. To make it
fit, they might have to revise some of their standard scenarios
described by my one of my Facebook friends as fables of comic book theology.
Chris recently posted a kind of legal-like letter his church sent him,
booting him out of their ekklesia, or "church." That was two years
ago. Apparently he didn't go willingly out of the "church;" he was
kicked out.

I agree with your assessment! A biblical parabolic virgin is someone who has never engaged in the fornication of the world...ie...never mixed the Lord's will with a temporal power or benefit. We, as born again into the Israel of God, are grafted into Christ through a tribe...one of the 10 northern tribes that are of Joseph (Ephraim). In this way we are one with our Jewish brethren in Christ. We are both a part of the bride of Christ.

As to the church...there are many entities called the church....but the Lord knows whom are His. Let all who call on the Lord depart from iniquity!

 

[th1b.taylor]

I agree with your assessment! A biblical parabolic virgin is someone who has never engaged in the fornication of the world...ie...never mixed the Lord's will with a temporal power or benefit. We, as born again into the Israel of God, are grafted into Christ through a tribe...one of the 10 northern tribes that are of Joseph (Ephraim). In this way we are one with our Jewish brethren in Christ. We are both a part of the bride of Christ.

As to the church...there are many entities called the church....but the Lord knows whom are His. Let all who call on the Lord depart from iniquity!

WOW!! Are you positive you want to stand in front of God and explain why you taught such a heretical ideology? First of all, the reason I teach from the NASB is because an idea for idea translation can, not necessarily does but can, rely, far to heavily, on the person doing the translation. In this case here you or your teacher have taken the translation of your or their choice and translated the translation into what you, he or she thought God meant to imply!

God is omniscient, omnipotent and finite and infinite man, God´s creation, has no business pretending to be as smart as the Creator! When I taught children, 6-14, I always impressed upon them to never go where you have leaped into so vigorously. Do you honestly believe that God needs you and I to straighten out His writings for Him? The single most important rule in Hermeneutics is to never try to understand any single or small group of scripture without the light of all scripture shining on it.

In this case you have ignored one of God´s unfailing promises, made to the nation of Israel to never forsake them. Gen.9:8-13, Duet. 7:9, Exo. 20:6 and Psa. 105:8) And for the other argument of their desertion, see Elijah was sharply informed that God had always kept a remnant. On top of all this, your misalignment of the Word of God, in this chapter, just canon-balls the red flag into the air. God has gone so far as to ascertain the fact that these 144,000 are composed of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Iḿ sorry to need to point it out but your words attempt to fly across the face of God and may it never be so.

 

[Prentis]

I agree with your assessment! A biblical parabolic virgin is someone who has never engaged in the fornication of the world...ie...never mixed the Lord's will with a temporal power or benefit. We, as born again into the Israel of God, are grafted into Christ through a tribe...one of the 10 northern tribes that are of Joseph (Ephraim). In this way we are one with our Jewish brethren in Christ. We are both a part of the bride of Christ.

As to the church...there are many entities called the church....but the Lord knows whom are His. Let all who call on the Lord depart from iniquity!

Good post...

Paul says the promises were to Christ, the seed of Abraham, and are therefore for all who are in Christ. Thus Gentiles and Jews form the Israel of God, they have access to the commonwealth (the inheritance) of Israel, Jacob. :)

 

[veteran]

The 144,000 are found in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. And Daniel 11: 33 can be applied to the 144,000. The background of the discussion of the 144,000 on this thread, and for many such discussions, is that the traditional amillennialist view of them by the Catholic Church and by many Calvinists is that they represent all the saved ones of all ages. I know that amillennialism refers to a rejection of the thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the end time tribulation. But a similar tendency to use brad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times.

But the dispensationalist view, following their honoring of all Israel and their literalist system of interpretation is that they are all Jews.

On a Christian forum a member said of the 144,000 that: "Of course they
are Christians, but they are Israelites that converted
to Christianity."

Do you mean the 144,000 all belong to Messianic Judaism, who mix the
old and new covenants? Mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant
is of the spirit of anti-Christ, and is very possibly an important end
time apostasy.

In the New Testament, there is no longer a chosen people based on
race, that is, on physical descent from Abraham (Galatians 3: 16,
28-29). Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who
have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the
New Covenant, unless they are born again (John 3: 1-6). "He taketh
away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

Most of that is un-Biblical.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 specifically are Israelites, a literal number of 12,000 out of each tribe named there. The tribes of Dan and Ephraim are NOT mentioned, which is because of prophecy dealing with matters about their apostasy, Ephraim especially for the end days.

Only 3 tribes in that Rev.7 list are known as Jews of the "house of Judah", the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The rest are 10 lost tribe Israelites which were scattered mainly to the West in Asia Minor and Europe, and were the founders of the western Christian nations.

Starting at Rev.7:9, it's about Gentiles. The whole Rev.7 chapter is about the sealing of God's elect before the 'four winds' blow, which signals the end of this present world with Christ's coming on the day of The Lord. Both groups represent the sealed of God's elect for the end time tribulation, for that sealing's purpose is given later in Rev.9.

Revelation 7: 1-8 has to be interpreted by New Testament scripture,
not by a man made theology which starts from a position of honoring
all Israel, the saved Remnant and the unsaved majority. One very
relevant New Testament scripture is Romans 2: 28-29.

Wrong, it has to be interpreted per the WHOLE Bible, not just by The New Testament Books. In Ezekiel 48, the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are put back in, in final. One of the greatest fallacies in the Bible study of many is trying to study The Bible as a literal chronological history, like how man covers a college history class, and by disregarding Old Testament history. There's still a whole lot of prophecy written in The Old Testament Books that is for the end of this world, and thereafter. And without heeding Old Testament history, it is impossible... to know how to rightly divide that Rev.7 Scripture.

A more relevant NT Scripture is Romans 11:1-5, where Paul specifically teaches God has preserved a remnant of believing literal Israel, called there the remnant according to the election of grace. Paul compared them to how Elijah was afraid that all of God's prophets were going to be destroyed, and God told Elijah that He had reserved 7,000 unto Himself that had not bowed the knee to Baal. So the doctrine of men you hold to is going directly against what Apostle Paul taught there about a literal elect seed of Israel which God has reserved unto Himself. Thus you go against God also in that.

We don't know exactly where we are in the timeline leading to the
return of Christ, so we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will began
their ministry.

Those watching the times and the seasons our Lord Jesus and His Apostles and prophets gave for the end know where we are today in the timeline of the end of this world. Rev.7 even reveals what timing that prophecy is for, and who all it is for. It's about the elect of Christ's Church in prep for the tribulation, of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, because that's specifically what that sealing there is for. And the majority of those sealed already know it today. Those who don't yet know what time we're in today make statements like you did there.

Christ says in Matthew 24: 21 that "...for there shall be then
tribulation great such as not has been from the beginning of the world
until now..." This is from the George Berry Interlinear, 1958

For the Westcott-Hort Greek text, which is the basis for almost all
recent translations, used more by the dispensationalists, but not by
all of them, there is also no article in front of the Greek word
thlipis, or tribulation.

The idea "recent translations" does not necessarily mean the 'best'. The Westcott-Hort based their translation on the Alexandrian manuscripts which copies are simply older than the Textus Receptus used for the KJV Bible. Yet the Alexandrian texts are few, and found in good shape, showing they were not in as much usage as the Majority Texts which are found as thousands of well-used manuscript copies, but dated later than the Alexandrian. What does this reveal? It reveals that even though the Text Receptus Majority Texts are later copies, they make up the majority of NT texts and show wear from greater usage than the Alexandrian texts. So older does not necessarily mean better, nor more reliable.

Christ linked the idea of a time of trouble with the idea of "great tribulation" in Matt.24 and Mark 13. It is unmistakable as to what timing He meant, simply because the Old Testament Scripture of the prophets mention the events He spoke of too. That's why we need to understand all of God's Word, and not simply slice parts and pieces of It to suit a doctrine of man like you're doing.

There is no article in front of tribulation, no "THE great
tribulation." There will be great tribulation during the last years
of this age before Christ returns. The dispensationalist seven year
tribulation is an inference from and interpretation of Daniel 9: 27.
We might have reason to believe that tribulation during the last
years and months of this age will get worse and worse.

God's Word declares, literally, a time of great tribulation for a specific set period just prior to the end of this world. Christ said it would be shortened for the sake of His elect, and He even gave His elect what that is to be.

The idea of a 7 years period for the end is not a speculation from Dispensationalism. It is from the declaration to Daniel through prophetic events to show each symbol 'week' period of the 70 weeks equals 7 years each. In Dan.9:27 is given prophecy of a final symbolic "one week" period. The total prophecy involves 490 symbolic years represented by 70 weeks in the Dan.9:24 verse (70 x 7 = 490). Prophetic events of the first seven sevens and sixty-two sevens total show 69 weeks are already past, with the final one seven remaining. Remove that final "one week" (1 seven) of the prophecy, and it would never be completed the total 70 weeks. So some obviously have a difficult time counting, and need to go back and study basic arithmetic.

So, we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will begin their work. But
there is now a Remnant who contend for the faith once delivered to the
saints.

Wrong again. His elect well know what those 144,000 are sealed for, prior to Christ's return. You're repeating ideas from Scripture, but it's all scattered in confusion.

When Christ was born as a man and began his ministry, he did not work
from within
the religious establishment of his time. The religious establishment
then were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He said "...beware of the
leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." (Matthew 16: 11).

Christ and his disciples operated out in the metaphoric wilderness and
often in the literal one, outside of organized society.

The only association with the idea of wilderness concerning Christ's Ministry was with John the Baptist, and Christ being tempted by the devil. And it was meant in the literal wilderness sense, for John lived in the desert areas. There's only three applications of the 'wilderness' as a metaphor that I know of in God's Word, and none involve the idea of Christ and His Apostles remaining separate from the religous orders of the day. If we ever expect to really understand God's Messages when He uses it metaphorically, throwing it around to apply however we want will cloud that understanding He wants us to gain from it.

Just as the majority on the broad way went into apostasy not once but
several times during the Old Covenant, so the organization now
claiming to be the Body of Christ, different from Israel reborn in
Christ, has gone into apostasy, which is the falling away (II
Thessalonians 2: 3-4). Luke 13:21 says leaven was hid in three
measues of meal, until the whole was leavened. The whole what? The
institution claiming to be the Body of Christ, the "church" was said
to become leavened - over time.

The time for the great falling away has not yet begun. Paul linked it specifically with the coming of a false one that will sit in the Temple of God, exalting himself above all that is worshipped or called God, showing himself that he is God (per 2 Thess.2). It's that specific end time event that create the greatest time of apostasy of believers as they bow to that false one instead of Christ. But Christ's elect, which represent His Church here on earth, will not be deceived in that, which means His true Church will always stand. A believer can decide to belong to It with His elect in not bowing to that coming false one, or they can bow to that false one and be cut off. Each must make a choice. The purpose of the coming tribulation is to make it so difficult for us to live so as to coherce us into bowing to that coming false one, and thus deny our Lord Jesus Who returns later to destroy that false one.

Revelation 18: 4 is then applied to the leavened "church"and to its
condition after the falling away. "Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues." "Her" refers back to Revelation 17: 1-11.

Jerusalem will be ground zero for the coming false worship of the false messiah coming to play our Lord Jesus. That false one of Matt.24:23-26 will be the "another Jesus" Paul warned of in 2 Cor.11. That's about a world beast system and with a world beast king setup at Jerusalem. THAT's what we as believers on Christ Jesus are to come out of, the confusion of that false one world beast system that is being setup today. It is a spiritual coming out so as to not be deceived.

The 144,000 are not members of the "church." They have already come
out of "her," and are in the metaphoric wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,
14). Likewise, the Remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10: 21-22, Zephaniah 3:
12-13, Revelation 12: 17) during the last years of this age are not
part of the "church," but are out in the metaphoric wilderness, like
Christ was during his ministry on earth.

The 144,000 specifically ARE members of Christ's Church, even representing the 'heart' of it, i.e., His elect servants that are sealed for the end with God's seal. Anyone NOT having that seal from God for the end will NOT be part of Christ's Church, but will be found an apostate when our Lord Jesus returns. And those 144,000 are literal seed Israelites, the remnant according to the election of grace which Paul taught of in Romans 11:1-5. Those against that Truth from God's Word show they definitely are not 'sealed' with God's sealing for the end as those of Rev.7 are (which includes elect Gentiles starting at Rev.7:9).

The question is, If a Christian were to become free of the influence
of amillennialism and/or dispensationalism would he still resist the
144,000 being a group called out for a mission during tribulation, who
are born again and who follow the doctrines of the New Testament?
Following the doctrines of the New Testament means they are not
relying upon their genetic identity for entry into the group. Many of
the qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are given in Revelation
14: 4-5. And - saying they are "virgins" does not mean they are
literal virgins; it is a metaphor saying they are not under bondage to
the figure described in Revelation 17: 1-11, Mystery Babylon the
Great, Babylon as religion.

Only the devil could place ideas in one's mind that those sealed of Rev.7 are something different than Christ's elect of His Church. Only a non-Christian would think otherwise. Paul said God has reserved to Himself an elect remnant of the seed of Israel, and that is also shown throughout both the New Testament Books and the Old Testament Books. Those who refuse to believe that show themselves joined with antichrists.

The qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are also given, in part,
in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, on the Remnant of Israel, and some of these
qualifications are the same as in Revelation 14: 4-5.

If someone resists Daniel 11: 33 as applying to the mission of the
144,000 this is interesting, and the resistance too may come out of
dispensationalism. I am not completely sure why dispensationalism
would oppose the use of Daniel 11 to apply to any end time events -
except that the founders and shakers of dispensationalism and
celebrities like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye do not make use of Daniel
11, as far as I know. The North Versus South focus of Daniel 11 may
not fit the dispensationalist end time prophecy scenarios. To make it
fit, they might have to revise some of their standard scenarios
described by my one of my Facebook friends as fables of comic book theology.
Chris recently posted a kind of legal-like letter his church sent him,
booting him out of their ekklesia, or "church." That was two years
ago. Apparently he didn't go willingly out of the "church;" he was
kicked out.

What you're talking about is those on the Pre-trib secret rapture theory, which Darby who started the idea of Dispensationalism, was also on.

I believe in a Post-tribulation coming of Christ Jesus as written in Matthew 24, Mark 13, 2 Thess.2, and Rev.11. So what you're trying to do with all you've written above is to try and show errors of Dispensationalist thinking in conjunction with Pre-tribbers like LaHaye et al. Problem is though, not everyone who follows some of the ideas of Dispensationalism believes in a Pre-trib rapture.

This is why it's always better to stay in God's Word as written first, without listening to the various seminary doctrines of men. Otherwise one will wind up deceived on many things written in God's Word. Because that's what I have done is why many have tried to place me in just about every seminary category (except Pre-trib) there is. And that reveals that if the Bible student stays in God's Word as written, they are not going to be popular with the traditions of men as taught in most seminary schools today.