The argument for God you’ve never heard

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Rhetro

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The most common question from nonbelievers: “What is your evidence?”

The reply: You don't get to ask for evidence without first demonstrating what grounds logic in your worldview to even evaluate evidence in the first place.

Also, empiricism holds that all knowledge comes from sense data. Because the proposition itself cannot be verified by sense experience, it violates its own rule. By the logic of empiricism, if a proposition cannot be verified by sense experience, it cannot be known to be true.

At the end of the day, debating the existence of God comes down to worldviews and paradigms. Simply throwing verses and dabbling in empirical data isn’t very effective. You don’t need to do any of that, you only have to merely point out how a worldview falls into absurdity without God. It’s a proof via reductio ad absurdum, that God exists by the impossibility of the contrary.

All secular worldviews no matter what label they carry, in some way shape or form, participate in intellectual theft. Whether they swap God out with another label, attempt to reduce God to some impersonal force, it’s all borrowed capital because secular worldviews are inherently, rationally bankrupt. People using logic or believing it is useful, is not a justification for logic. Logic requires a justification for a coherent worldview, because every argument presupposes rational thought. Secular worldviews love objectivity when they’re attacking God, but they immediately flee to subjectivism the moment they are asked to explain their own foundation.

The laws of logic are invariant, immaterial, and universal. Therefore, they can only be grounded in God, not localized to a human mind or object, because logic is a reflection of God, rather than bound by it. This is why Christ is referred to as the Logos.

If logic is descriptive rather than prescriptive, it would inevitably become localized, shifting, and ultimately arbitrary. If the laws of logic are not immaterial, invariant, and universal, then what material are they made of, what geographic location are they limited to, and what day of the week is the Law of Non-Contradiction scheduled to change?

To object to the existence of God strips you of the logical right to form an objection against God because any rational objection requires the tools that an argument against God would destroy. All rational thought goes out the window and with that, science itself.

Once this is established, the reason God would be the Triune God is because the Trinity accounts for the One and the Many, reality is both. If you have "many gods" without an absolute, cohesive singular mind, you have chaos. The gods will have differing wills, distinct natures, and clashing authorities, Absolute Truth is lost. If you reduce everything to just a generic "One" where individuality is an illusion, diversity is lost, and personality disappears into a blank slate.

You don't prove the Resurrection by using human history. You use the Resurrection to prove that human history has any meaning at all. You aren't putting Christ on trial before the judge of secular history. You are putting secular history on trial before the Resurrection.

There is no better and more coherent worldview, than the Christian worldview.
 
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Sel@h

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Welcome @Rhetro IMG_1874.gif…and thank you for your post. Would you mind re-writing it just a little bit more simply? Evangelism is something we Christians really need to focus on, and maybe it’s just me, but some of what you wrote was a little over my head. …or maybe I just need another cup of coffee….want some?coffee:
 
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markalan

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Also, empiricism holds that all knowledge comes from sense data. Because the proposition itself cannot be verified by sense experience, it violates its own rule. By the logic of empiricism, if a proposition cannot be verified by sense experience, it cannot be known to be true.
I like that idea but I expect skeptics might claim that it is not "sense data" per se but reproducibility of results ... which is how we learn about the world from the moment we are born.
 

amigo de christo

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Welcome @Rhetro View attachment 92133…and thank you for your post. Would you mind re-writing it just a little bit more simply? Evangelism is something we Christians really need to focus on, and maybe it’s just me, but some of what you wrote was a little over my head. …or maybe I just need another cup of coffee….want some?coffee:
wanna hear what paul once wrote .
The greeks seek after wisdom and the jews a sign
Guess who paul preached . JESUS CHRIST and him crucified .
What did this same paul say about wordly wisdom and why HE did no such thing
LEST the CROSS of Christ become of no effect .
YOU are right dear sister . WE supposed to evangelize and not with worldy wisdom
but ON JESUS the CHRIST . Can you or i MAKE anyone beleive . NOPE .
so its futile to try and think we can by wordly wisdom .
You see Our duty is to simply preach TRUTH . Preach JESUS .
Who so ever hears AMEN and THANK GOD and who so ever hears it not
They condmen themselves , and after one or two warnings , MOVE ON and shake the dust off .
The problem with the churches is , they went about seeking to win souls by means of mans own efforts
and you can clearly see HOW that seeker friendly worked out , REAL BADLY .
WE should simply speak TRUTH . Let GOD give the increase , we are but co helpers to the TRUTH by THE SPIRIT .
 
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pwg_jonathan

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Welcome, Rhetro. I think there's something to the point that everybody is standing on assumptions, but in my own life it was never an argument that moved me, it was a person who stayed kind when I was asking hard questions. Arguments can open a door, though, and I'd want to answer questions with respect. 1 Peter 3:15 says to give an answer "with gentleness and respect," which I try to keep in mind. What has worked best for you when you talk with someone who doesn't believe?
 
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Rhetro

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Welcome @Rhetro View attachment 92133…and thank you for your post. Would you mind re-writing it just a little bit more simply? Evangelism is something we Christians really need to focus on, and maybe it’s just me, but some of what you wrote was a little over my head. …or maybe I just need another cup of coffee….want some?coffee:
Hello, yes. That’s completely fair.

If I could sum it up in just one sentence:

Without God, you cannot justify logic in order to even be able to raise an objection against God to begin with.

Think of atheism as a jury floating in mid air demanding evidence, but without being able to justify what is keeping it floating to begin with.

All rational thought presupposes the laws of logic, we are using the laws of logic as we speak right now to dialogue. The question is not whether we can use logic or not, but whether we can justify logic. Being able to justify logic is to answer the question of what makes the laws of logic work, and what makes them valid. Atheism or any other secular worldview is unable to do this, so their entire worldview collapses into absurdity. This is what is meant by reductio ad absurdum, reduction to absurdity. That alone is the proof that God exists by the impossibility of the contrary. The "impossibility of the contrary" means that a claim must be true because its opposite is literally impossible to prove, make sense of, or live out.

Any worldview or paradigm is basically operating on intellectual theft, meaning it borrows from the Christian worldview in order to make arguments, it’s borrowed capital.

The entire argument can sound complicated because it incorporates philosophy…namely metaphysics (the study of reality) and epistemology. Epistemology is the branch of philosophy that studies knowledge, asking how we know what we know, what makes a belief justified, and what the limits of human understanding are.

There are 3 laws of logic:

Law of Identity: which states that a thing is exactly what it is, meaning a concept or object cannot randomly change its basic identity mid-thought.

Law of Non-Contradiction, which states that a statement cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the exact same way, meaning a door cannot be completely locked shut and wide open simultaneously.

Law of Excluded Middle, which states that a claim is either true or it is false, with no magical third option in between.

These 3 laws are immaterial, unchanging, and universal. You cannot dig them out of the ground, they are always true, and they apply no matter where you are. Because this is the case, these 3 laws cannot be dependent on your own brain, because your brain is changing. They can only be grounded in God himself, because God is unchanging, universal, and immaterial. God is not bound by logic, God is a reflection of logic.

You know how love flows out from God? So does logic itself. God is rational, God is orderly.
 

Rhetro

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Welcome, Rhetro. I think there's something to the point that everybody is standing on assumptions, but in my own life it was never an argument that moved me, it was a person who stayed kind when I was asking hard questions. Arguments can open a door, though, and I'd want to answer questions with respect. 1 Peter 3:15 says to give an answer "with gentleness and respect," which I try to keep in mind. What has worked best for you when you talk with someone who doesn't believe?
Bringing their presuppositions into focus. You can throw as much evidence as you want at them…this is what they want and what they are used to. You have to instead go up a level and challenge their paradigm for how they evaluate evidence to begin with. The problem is not the lack of evidence, but how they evaluate it. Most of them are not neutral, they want to come at you with Santa Claus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, God being a genocidal maniac, etc.

All rational discourse presupposes the laws of logic. They must be able to provide a justification for logic in their worldview. If they can’t, then their demand for evidence completely falls apart.

Even if they still walk away without believing in God thinking to themselves, “Screw that guy”…but their worldview is shattered, that alone is a success because to keep holding onto a shattered worldview then becomes incredibly difficult. That is the kick for them to finally start asking the hard questions…questions they’ve never asked themselves before.

More often than not, my way is the painful way, I don’t have time to waste on the usual surface level, low tier arguments. Debate is about truth and logic, not likability. For most people, debate is all about performative nonsense and rhetorical tricks, defeating the spirit of debate. Likeability≠truth. So when people resort to pearl clutching, fake outrage, fake piety signaling, tone policing…it’s a sure fire sign they have capitulated.
 
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Rhetro

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wanna hear what paul once wrote .
The greeks seek after wisdom and the jews a sign
Guess who paul preached . JESUS CHRIST and him crucified .
What did this same paul say about wordly wisdom and why HE did no such thing
LEST the CROSS of Christ become of no effect .
YOU are right dear sister . WE supposed to evangelize and not with worldy wisdom
but ON JESUS the CHRIST . Can you or i MAKE anyone beleive . NOPE .

Question, do you think Paul was equating worldy wisdom with logic here?

Because logic is not worldly wisdom, it is a reflection of God. Paul is not equating worldly wisdom with logic, he was condemning the arrogant, secular philosophies of the pagan Greeks.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word Logos, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
 

RandyDawson

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The most common question from nonbelievers: “What is your evidence?”

The reply: You don't get to ask for evidence without first demonstrating what grounds logic in your worldview to even evaluate evidence in the first place.

Titus 1:9
an elder must hold fast the faithful word as he has been taught, so that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

"Convince the gainsayers" refers to the act of using sound doctrine to refute those who contradict or deny biblical teachings. This concept is found in Titus 1:9, which emphasizes the importance of holding fast to the faithful word to effectively exhort and convince those who oppose sound doctrine.

How many unbelievers have you been able to successfully convince to become believers?
 

Rhetro

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Titus 1:9
an elder must hold fast the faithful word as he has been taught, so that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

"Convince the gainsayers" refers to the act of using sound doctrine to refute those who contradict or deny biblical teachings. This concept is found in Titus 1:9, which emphasizes the importance of holding fast to the faithful word to effectively exhort and convince those who oppose sound doctrine.

How many unbelievers have you been able to successfully convince to become believers?
Well this would be a misunderstanding of how conversion works. No human being can 'make' someone a believer, that is strictly the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:6). Our job, as Titus 1:9 says, is to use sound doctrine to 'convince the gainsayers'..which literally means to silence and refute their logical contradictions.

The Greek word used in Titus 1:9 that means to expose an error, refute, or convict someone is ἐλέγχειν/elenchein

I expose that their secular worldviews collapse into absurdity, which strips them of their intellectual excuses. I am clearing away the thorns of their pride so that the Holy Spirit can actually work on their hearts. I am doing exactly what Paul commanded...destroying arguments that set themselves up against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:5): "casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ"
 
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RandyDawson

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Well this would be a misunderstanding of how conversion works. No human being can 'make' someone a believer, that is strictly the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:6). Our job, as Titus 1:9 says, is to use sound doctrine to 'convince the gainsayers'..which literally means to silence and refute their logical contradictions.

Should Titus 1:9 be disregarded then?
It says an elder should be able by sound doctrine both to exhort (correct) and to convince the gainsayers.

Paul was able to convince some folks after spending time teaching them.
He did more than silence and refute their logical contradictions. He got many of them to become believers.


I expose that their secular worldviews collapse into absurdity, which strips them of their intellectual excuses. I am clearing away the thorns of their pride so that the Holy Spirit can actually work on their hearts. I am doing exactly what Paul commanded...destroying arguments that set themselves up against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:5).

So through your efforts, how many unbelievers have you been able to successfully convince to become believers?
 

Rhetro

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Should Titus 1:9 be disregarded then?
It says an elder should be able by sound doctrine both to exhort (correct) and to convince the gainsayers.

Paul was able to convince some folks after spending time teaching them.
He did more than silence and refute their logical contradictions. He got many of them to become believers.




So through your efforts, how many unbelievers have you been able to successfully convince to become believers?
No, I am telling you to follow Titus 1:9, not disregard it. The Greek word elenchein in it means to refute and expose error, it's not a modern sales pitch.

You are accidentally attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to human effort. St. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 3:6: 'I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.' Paul did not 'get' anyone to believe, God did. When Paul spent time teaching and convincing people, he was doing exactly what the Greek word elenchein means, he was thoroughly refuting their false worldviews and demonstrating the absolute truth of Christ until their arguments were completely exhausted.

Noah preached for 120 years and converted zero people outside his own family, yet he was entirely faithful to God. My duty is to faithfully plant and water by destroying the intellectual idols of the culture, it is God's sovereign role alone to give the increase.
 

Rhetro

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I like that idea but I expect skeptics might claim that it is not "sense data" per se but reproducibility of results ... which is how we learn about the world from the moment we are born.
Them switching the word from 'sense data' to 'reproducibility of results' is just a semantic dodge that doesn't solve the problem. They still have to use their physical senses to observe a reproduced result, meaning it is still bound to empiricism. You see?

More importantly, the rule still destroys itself, you cannot run a scientific experiment to 'reproduce a result' that proves all knowledge must be reproducible. It is a philosophical claim that cannot meet its own standard, proving that the secular worldview must borrow unprovable, non-empirical rules just to try and argue against God.

The core of all secular worldviews is intellectual theft.