The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[PS95]

The issue with your perspective here seems to be that you are assuming the premise proves the conclusion. You are essentially saying that every instance of προσκυνέω (proskyneō) directed toward Jesus must mean it's the kind of worship that belongs exclusively God. We will soon see it doesn't.
As pointed out in my previous post, this word essentially means to bow down or kneel in the sense of paying homage. In Scripture, many recipients who are clearly not God receive proskyneō so the mere presence of this word cannot establish deity.

Rman- You've forgotten I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck here. I was raised with much your skewed theology. It wasn't just an overnight decision on my part to leave it. It took me many years and much research and prayer. I did not take my decision lightly. So, if you think that anything you say to me has not already been delved into very deeply you would be very mistaken. I tire easily with this topic simply due to the fact that I have been steeped in this stuff since my childhood. I have lost my entire family due to shunning over my beliefs vs theirs (jw) for over 30 years now. Don't take that lightly. So, for you to insinuate that that am assuming anything without understanding your point is sort of hitting a nerve. So if you don't mind please refrain from empty assumptions.
I am of course fully aware that homage was given to the secular. However, you just dismiss what I am saying to you. You ignore questions that I ask you, and just plow ahead with the same rhetoric. It's always the same with all of you. -- This is really very simple to me, but you have the need to complicate it for the sake of your agenda. you put words in my mouth. Please don't do that. Before I go to your verses below- one of which I have already addressed- please reply to my very simple questions-
In the NT,
1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?

Let's take a look at your premise and see if it makes sense.

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In Revelation 3:9, the synagogue of Satan will be made to give proskyneō (worship) to the church of Philadelphia. Did God perpetuate idolatry and suggest the church would be getting worshipped as God just because the church accepted the worship?​

I already addressed this in my last reply. I do not take that as literal- do you really suppose that JESUS will line up the "Jews" and line the church members and make them literally bow to them? I don't think that for a minute. C'mon now. He is saying that they will indeed be humbled and forced to admit that the church is His.- It is the fulfillment of
Isaiah 60:14 “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.--
The church is being called, the city of God- The ZION of the Holy One of Israel.
To these who call themselves Jews and are not- to call the church they persecuted, the city of God/ZION is insanely humbling. They will be forced to admit TRUTH.

In 1 Sam 24:8 (LXX) David gave proskyneō to King Saul. Did king Saul act as Lord God Almighty because he accepted the same thing that Jesus did?​

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In 1 Kings 1:23 (LXX) Nathaniel gave proskyneō to King David. Did Nathaniel willingly and knowingly give the kind of worship reserved exclusively for God to King David, and David knowingly accepted it with a smile?​

You've forgotten Daniel 2:6- it's even more so! It's obvious that the customs then were different- we do not bow to kings now. Worship is homage and homage is worship. They are synonyms. Here ya go-https://thesaurus.plus/related/homage/worship
Get that straight first. It was akin to what the Japanese do when bowing to each other. I recall Obama bowing to the Saudis. I would not bow to anyone myself, as I see it as a form of worship. Did the apostles agree with me? Yes. Peter certainly did not accept proskuneo. But I suppose you would? You would be wrong according to the angel in revelation who distinctly aid- DO NOT DO THAT- to John- Proskuneo only GOD.
So my point is really very simple- you can toss at me 9000 instances of proskueno given to the secular. I will just keep repeating that we are clearly now commanded NOT TO DO THAT and to ONLY GIVE IT TO GOD. Angels refuse it- Jesus accepted it. Give it only to God. It's really not that difficult. Unless you need it to be.
Think about this- in your mind proskuneo is nothing because it's given to secular prophets, kings etc.. so we are free to worship president trump? Or is that idolatry? Is it just honor? Does the angel tell you otherwise?
If I were to give proskuneo to a president (aka a king) - and I also gave proskuneo to God- how could you tell the difference? Is this merely an outward expression? WHAT is proskuneo to you, Rman? WHY SHOULD WE ONLY GIVE IT GOD ACCORDING TO PETER, JOHN, The ANGEL AND JESUS?

The point I am really trying to make here is that bowing in Hebrews culture is not always considered an act of God worship or meant to convey the idea that the giver and recipient of proskyneō believe they are being worshipped as God. So you can't just say "Jesus was worshipped, that means he is God" because that isn't how it works.

According to the Angel in Revelation and to Peter, proskuneo should only be given to God. I think that is sufficient. You don't. John had to learn- maybe you will now too. Culture changes when God says so--- unless they disobey Him.

In Revelation 5:13, you didn't include the fact that the Lamb is not the Throne Sitter who is being worshipped. So let's rewind a bit. Revelation 5:7 says "And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne." You can read forward from there and see that where they are worshipping is not where the Lamb is seated, rather where they are worshipping is the One on the throne the Lamb came and took the scroll from.

Baloney. The depths you guys will go to.. sigh. Food for thought-
1. "EVERY CREATURE in HEAVEN, EARTH ETC"- verse 13. -Rev 5
If "every creature in heaven" is speaking --- to Him who sites on the throne and to the Lamb..
Why is the Lamb not speaking there if He is a creature? It says "every" creature -- even those in heaven..

2. Rev 22:3 --And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Not only do we have ONE throne with God and the Lamb on it- but here we also see His servants (duoloi) giving sacred service aka latreuo.
Proskuneo and latreuo are only to be given to God alone - according to JESUS--- Yet He Himself accepted it. ut oh.
Matt 4:10-- Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship (proskuneo) the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (latreuo)

Who do the servants (duoloi) serve?
According to Paul-
Romans 1:1- --Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Paul is a servant (doulos) of Jesus.
So we have sacred service (latreou) and worship (proskuneo) being given to God and the LAMB on one throne by the servants (duolo) of Jesus Christ.
Now hold on- You said proskuneo can be given to anyone and proves nothing- what did Jesus say?
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship (proskuneo) the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (latreuo) matt 4:10

and what did the Angel tell John?

Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”-- Rev 22:9

and Peter-
Acts 10:25-26
As Peter was about to enter, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet to worship him. / But Peter helped him up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

 

[PS95]

Continued-

Runningman-said

In Philippians 2:10, I would like to draw your attention to this part "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth" that you are attempting to conflate with Isaiah 45:23, Psalm 22:9, Romans 14:11, etc where it says they will bow before God. The issue is that Philippians 2:10 doesn't say they will bow before Jesus. It says "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..."

Bowing at the name of Jesus is not the same statement as bowing to Jesus. "At the name" refers to the authority by which everyone will bow to the Father, hence Philippians 2:11 says "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Ok so now we are bowing at authority of letters and not to Jesus? Gotcha. This is just pathetic, Rman. Are you seriously now going to blatantly deny that Jesus was bowed down to in the NT? You blew your cover here.. Here I thought your argument was that bowing to was not worship just secular homage. Now you deny it even happened? Sheesh.
God the FATHER IS GLORIFIED BY HIS SON- He is the very brightness of His father's GLORY. Heb 1:3
When we honor the SON-WE HONOR THE FATHER- EQUALLY- ONE WAY WE HONOR GOD IS WITH OUR WORSHIP.
You do the FATHER NO FAVORS BY REJECTING HIS SON AS WORTHY! WHAT YOU DO TO JESUS YOU DO TO HIM.
If you love the son the father loves you also.

Runningman- So you have not made a 1:1 connection between bowing to God and bowing to Jesus. I don't see your argument as convincing.

I will leave you with a thought on the only instruction in the NT regarding worship. Who did Jesus teach to worship in spirit and truth?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Woman at the well- we no longer need to worship in one place like Jerusalem- we now worship God in Spirit and Truth. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Truth. and by the Holy Spirit who lives in us- This is how we worship God in His SON and by the SPIRIT.
Not just lip service- or one location- but anywhere, anytime- deeply from the heart. We love because He first loved us.
When any 2 or 3 are gathered in my name I am there among them.

I imagine what you will say before you say it- so if you want to continue to kick your dead horse you may- but I may or may not respond. I am fully aware of the depths you are in and it's not a 123 thing. I strongly believe that unless you are open to understanding something to be so, it will not be. A hardened heart doesn't just appear overnight. It's earned by repetitive rejections. You seem like a nice guy Rman- and we have had multiple discussions over the years and on other sites as well. You are dug in and I understand having been there. I will be praying for you.

 

[doctrox]

1. The LXX rarely refers to "son of man" using the definite article...Meaning, depending on which manuscript you look at...This gives us important insight into the mind of early Greek-speaking Jews who penned the LXX.

The LXX is just another Jewish tradition, a joke that's being played on you.

 

[Wrangler]

1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?

Your questions are loaded, giving meaning to “accepting” something as evidenced by a negative; Since Person X did NOT object to proskuneo, that means they “accept“ it. This is indoctrinated rationalization, a far cry from Christ commanding his followers to worship him.

1. Did Jesus teach that he is YHWH incarnate?
2. Did Jesus instruct us to worship him?
3. Did Jesus instruct us to pray to him?
4. Did Angels instruct us to worship Jesus?
5. Did Angels instruct us to pray to Jesus?