I believe it proves that there are no instructions to pray to Jesus in the Bible.
The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus
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You hammer away at this mistaken idea because you do not believe Jesus is God.
You refuse to define prayer.
You ignore scriptures where Stephen prayed to Jesus as he died.
You dismiss scriptures where Jesus said we can ask Him for things.
This unedifying quarrelsome conversation has reached a dead end.
Yes, absolutely correct. Prayer is for the Father only.
Is asking me for things prayer? No
Is asking you for things prayer? No
Is asking Jesus for things prayer? No
Let's just agree to disagree. I have been in what seem like debates that go on for years, with little to no progress, and both sides becoming more entrenched in their views, because people feel passionately about what they believe. I would add, zeal is not the yardstick for what is true. That being said, let's agree that the Bible never provides an instruction to pray to Jesus, regardless of whether he is God or not. The Bible is simply silent on the matter of directing prayers to him, i.e., the word "prayer" isn't even used to describe talking to Jesus, no one said "pray to Jesus", people say pray to the Father and ask the Father repeatedly.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I'm praying to Jesus. That's the name that's always worked when I pray.
PS95
Well-Known Member
RM- I see you wrote that you do converse with Jesus. You call it talking and I call it praying. Makes no nevermind to me what you want to call it.. If I were catholic and thought Mary was in heaven I still would not "talk" or "pray" to Mary. Would you?
Talking to God is the same as praying, because prayer is at its core, conversation with God. When we are praying we are communioning with the Father and drawing near to Him through the many forms of prayer.
I think one of the most common misconceptions about prayer is that it is only praying when you are asking God for something. Of course, that is a form of prayer and it’s called supplication, but that is not the center of what prayer is all about.
Prayer is about spending time with God through communing and fellowshipping with Him. When we fellowship with God, it takes on many facets.
We have one mediator who is Our Savior and Lord. It's perfectly fine to speak with Him and since he is in heaven I will call it prayer. That has nothing to do with having a vision like the elder. Nothing. I don't need to have a vision to speak with my Lord.
As far as I'm concerned this thread is not worth arguing about since you also say you talk with the Lord. Where we differ if you insist that He had no heavenly existence prior to birth on earth, and I find that to be utterly ridiculous.
anyway- there is no point to this thread for me unless you want to try to argue pre-existence.
See ya 'round.
Talking to God is the same as praying, because prayer is at its core, conversation with God. When we are praying we are communioning with the Father and drawing near to Him through the many forms of prayer.
I think one of the most common misconceptions about prayer is that it is only praying when you are asking God for something. Of course, that is a form of prayer and it’s called supplication, but that is not the center of what prayer is all about.
Prayer is about spending time with God through communing and fellowshipping with Him. When we fellowship with God, it takes on many facets.
We have one mediator who is Our Savior and Lord. It's perfectly fine to speak with Him and since he is in heaven I will call it prayer. That has nothing to do with having a vision like the elder. Nothing. I don't need to have a vision to speak with my Lord.
As far as I'm concerned this thread is not worth arguing about since you also say you talk with the Lord. Where we differ if you insist that He had no heavenly existence prior to birth on earth, and I find that to be utterly ridiculous.
anyway- there is no point to this thread for me unless you want to try to argue pre-existence.
See ya 'round.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Of course asking you or me for things isn’t prayer, but Jesus didn’t say to ask each other.
But Jesus did say to ask him for things, in John 14:13-14, and he would do it, in the context of believing in him, so why is it only prayer to the Father when we ask him for things and not Jesus? Your position appears to be one of begging the question, which is an error in reasoning—you’re presuming the very thing you conclude, namely, that we can’t pray to Jesus.
Wick Stick
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I mean... asking isn't necessarily prayer, but it's commonly part of it.
I think if you're directing your unspoken thoughts in the general direction of someone and trusting that they hear, you are probably praying.
Stumpmaster
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As per instructions from the Word of God, my profession of faith in Christ is such that I can and do, and always will, come to Him with my needs, having confidence that He intercedes for me.
Rom 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
1Jn 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Early Christians called on Christ, why wouldn't anyone who professes to have faith in Him as the Son of God?
Act 9:19-22 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. (20) Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. (21) Then all who heard were amazed, and said, "Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?" (22) But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that we shouldn't pray to Jesus.
There are several instances in the Bible of people worshipping Jesus. Surely we can pray to who we worship
There are several instances in the Bible of people worshipping Jesus. Surely we can pray to who we worship
Easy, Jesus directs people to that conclusion with his explicit instructions to pray to the Father. There are also no instructions to worship Jesus in Scripture. I don't think that's an accident.
Matthew 6
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9So then, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.
And quickly on the matter of worship, once again, the only instruction on who to worship is, once again, the Father.
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Hebrews 1:6 KJV
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Right. I would say that God isn't limited by peoples' misunderstandings of how to pray. If your heart is in the right place, and I am sure it is, that isn't something God is blind to, even if you're not praying according to Jesus' teachings. God transcends religious traditions and doctrines of men and isn't deaf to what goes on in the world. The rain falls on both the righteous and unrighteous.
I have also been doing some research. "Praying to Jesus" isn't what the early church fathers taught. Yes, they did discuss addressing Jesus but a doctrine of praying to Jesus wasn't formalized in the following centuries of the institution of the church until the early 4th century following the council of Nicaea. It became common in liturgy, sermons, and personal devotion. By the late 4th century it was common practice. So praying to Jesus, while missing from the teachings of Scripture, is something that developed and formalized over time in post-Biblical Christian sects and movements.
Noted, but your approach seems to blur the line between prayer and other forms of communication into non-existence and apply subjective criteria for defining prayer, i.e., "Jesus was in heaven so it's prayer" where the Bible doesn't really seem to be saying that. You recalled where I mentioned the elder and John's communication with him in heaven, if that isn't a prayer, then that is a consistency issue in your prayer theology.
If you want to discuss how Jesus didn't pre-exist, I would say it's a fine topic for a different thread if there is one already made.
Yeah, Jesus said you can ask him for things in John 14:13,14. If that means "Pray to me" then when Jesus said "No longer ask me anything" in John 16:23, then that must mean "Don't pray to me."
In 2 Kings 2:9, Elisha said to Elijah "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” But that isn't Elisha commanding Elijah to pray to him is it?
Why is it a prayer when it's Jesus involved and not a prayer when someone else invites others to ask them for something?
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