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The Bible on Hell (as Tartarus and Gehenna and Hades)

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Hobie, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    This study on what the Bible has on "Hell" is by its very nature include many verses as the destruction of the wicked is a theme that is repeated many times in the Bible, so I had to focus on the words used for it to begin with. The prophets who wrote the Bible did not know the word "Hell"; they used the Hebrew Sheol, which meant the grave, and also three different Greek words that are translated as “Hell” in our English New Testaments. It’s important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are “Tartarus,”“Gehenna,” and “Hades.” Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Scripture says, God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4). This verse says that “the angels that sinned”(which would include Lucifer, too) have already been cast down “to hell” by God Himself. Yet they aren’t burning right now, obviously, and they certainly aren’t suffering somewhere far beneath the earth. Tartarus means “dark abyss” or “place of restraint.” It isn’t a place of punishment either. Look carefully. 2 Peter 2:4 says Satan’s angels are “reserved unto judgment,” which means their punishment is yet future. For Satan and his evil angels, the fire hasn’t started yet. Next word:“Gehenna.” All authorities admit this word is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky valley of Hinnom just south of Jerusalem where trash, filth, and the bodies of dead animals were burned up in Bible days. Here is a quote from Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts “..Gehenna meant "the valley of Hinnom", and was originally a particular valley outside Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch (2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3;Jer. 32:35). In later Jewish literature Gehenna came to be associated with a place of torment and unquenchable fire that was to be the punishment for sinners. It was thought by many that lesser sinners might eventually be delivered from the fires of Gehenna, but by New Testament times punishment for sinners was deemed to be eternal...." Jesus Christ spoke about Gehenna many times such as in Matthew 5:22, 29 & 30 where He warned about “the danger of hell [Gehenna] fire”(Matthew 5:22). Gehenna definitely suggests real flames. The key question is when will this fire burn, Christ shows us when the fire will burn: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:40-42) Peter taught the same thing when he wrote:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10 “Sheol" is a Hebrew word used for the abode of the dead. It is thought of as a place situated below the ground (Ezek. 31:15), a place of darkness, silence and forgetfulness (Job 10:21). Although the dead in sheol are apparently cut off from God (Ps. 88:3-5), he is not absent (Ps. 139:8), and is able to deliver souls from sheol (Ps. 16:10). It is sometimes translated as "hell"; however, it is not seen as a place of eternal punishment, and its use in the New Testament (e.g. Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:27) suggests a meaning relating simply to the power of death.”......"Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole"), in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", or "pit". Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job. By the time of Jesus, some Jews had come to believe that those in Sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. At that time most Jews believed that Sheol meant simply the grave. Although many use this account (Luke 16:19-31) to support that the wicked go to Hades when they die, most readers forget the story is actually a parable, not an account of real events.Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead. So we can see how the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of ‘Hell’ as a place where Satan was in charge with demons running around with pitchforks. It however became seen as a place of eternal torment with demons in charger where sinners were punished forever, so you can see how todays idea of Hell evolved. Now lets look what seems to come nearest to this which is “Hades.” This Greek word is also translated “Hell” in many English Bibles, such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death, and Hell [Hades].” It does this same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles leave the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here’s a key point: in Revelation 20:14 “Hades”(“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” Thus “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire.” Here is Revelation 20:14 in both the KJV and NIV:And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire”(Revelation 20:14, King James Version) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, New International Version) In King James Version, there is a marginal reference beside the word “Hell”(Hades) listed in Revelation 20:13 and 14. It says “Hell” literally means “the grave.” Thus Revelation 20:14 could properly be translated,“death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.” This makes sense. To make it simple,“Hades” literally means “the grave.” This is easy to prove from 1 Corinthians 15:55, which in the King James Version states, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?(1 Corinthians 15:55) If you look in any Strong’s Concordance, you’ll discover that the original Greek word here translated “grave” is “Hades.” By looking at the context, it’s obvious that “Hades” means “the grave” because it is God’s saints who rise out of “Hades” when Jesus Christ returns. See for yourself:Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up on victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave [Hades] where is your victory? (1 Corinthians 15:51-55, King James Version,)“O grave [Hades] where is your victory?” the redeemed triumphantly shout. Thus “Hades” here cannot mean a place of burning, for who can imagine God’s people writhing in flames as they await the resurrection?Additional proof that “Hades” means “the grave” is the fact that “Hades” was the place Jesus Christ’s body rested in immediately after His death. In Acts 2:31, the King James Version declares,His [or Christ’s] soul was not left in hell [or Hades] neither his flesh did see corruption (Acts 2:31,KJV ). The New International Version translates Acts 2:31 as,"He was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay "(Acts 2:31, NIV) Thus Christ’s “body”(NIV) or “flesh”(KJV) was not allowed to see “corruption”(KJV) or “decay”(NIV) because it remained in the grave only a short time before He rose. So the meaning of the three Greek words translated “Hell” in our English Bibles:“Tartarus” means “a place of darkness or restraint”(2 Peter 2:4). Satan abides there now. “Hades” means “the grave”(Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). Jesus Christ’s body rested there, and His saints rest there now awaiting the resurrection. “Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, also Matthew 13:40-42, 2 Peter 3:7, 10-12). These flames are yet future, at the end of the world. In its description of this final fire, and the doom of the wicked or lost, the Bible declares: Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Why, then, do so many Christians believe in a hell that burns forever with Satan in charge? Well this problem can come about if you just look at a few verses which if viewed apart from the many other texts that teach the wicked are destroyed at the end, seem to say the flames are eternal. Looking forward to the Day of the Lord, God Himself declares:“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”(Malachi 4:1, 3). Hebrews 6:2 speak of the “eternal-aionios judgment”. This does not mean that the judgment is a process that has a start but does not have an end, rather that the judgment is of eternal consequences and/or effect. The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha was “eternal” (Jude 7), however the city is not burning until today, because it was a eternal fire in its consequences (or effects). Jude explains about “the vengeance of eternal fire”(verse 7), here’s the entire verse:“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire”(Jude 7) In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul, speaking of those who reject the Gospel, declares: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”. Now, what the word “destruction” evokes, but the picture of something that comes to its final end? Jesus compared the destruction of the wicked with weeds gathered in bundles to be burnt (Mat. 13:30,40), the bad fish cast away (Mat. 13:48), the bad plants to be rooted up (Mat. 15:13), the unfruitful tree to be cut down (Luke 13:7), the withered branch to be cast into fire (John 15:6), the unfaithful servants who are destroyed (Luke 20:16), the bad servant who will be cut asunder (Mat. 24:51), the Galilaeans who perished (Luke 13:2, 3), the eighteen people who were smashed by the Siloam tower (Luke 13:4, 5), the ones before the flood who were drown by the waters (Luke 17:27), the people in Sodom and Gomorrha which were destroyed by the fire (Luke 17:29) Jesus Christ also warned that He will someday declare to lost sinners,“Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”(Matthew 25:41). Is this fire the same type of fire mentioned in Jude 7, one which destroys completely? We know it is because five verses later our Lord clarified,“And these [the lost] shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal”(Matthew 25:46). Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting. Thus the lost experience “everlasting punishment,” not punishing, just like Sodom and Gomorrah. Note what Jesus says: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mat. 10:28 Notice what is said that hell does. It destroys, the word means just that in the Greek. Contrary to some ideas picked up from pagan mythology being taught by some, the fire that God sends down upon the lost at the end of time will completely devour all the wicked. It will cleanse the earth of every taint of sin and even burn up the very elements of the earth. It will make the way open for God to create a new heaven and a new earth. Having sinners suffering for their sins in hell with Satan and his minions in charge, or in Purgatory as some portray, is from pagan mythology and the doctrine of the devil and not of God. It is contrary to what the Bible teaches about God. And it is merely an extension of the first lie that Satan gave to Eve in the Garden of Eden: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4). This is Satan’s great lie repeated, that when you die you really don’t die, but you keep on living forever—either in heaven or in hell. Here are some scriptures my friend Amo came across about the fact that the wicked will perish. Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something. Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice. Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish. Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. II Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. The destruction of the wicked is just that, and is a complete and final, which destroys the body and the soul, forever wiping out Satan and those who follow him.
     
  2. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    Pretty good statement but you are missing one key point; Gehenna is not for sinners; its for believers.
     
  3. Deadwheat1224

    Deadwheat1224 New Member

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    and by that you mean such as the "luke-warm" correct?
     
  4. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    Lukewarm.. Good come back; but no I am not speaking of luke warm but scriptural.First you would have to show me where God’s Word declares Gehenna is a place for sinners of the world/heathen/gentiles/non believers etc; SOMETHING? Gehenna is the word which the preachers love to burn people up; what does the Bible say reference this word? Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge, which we agree on; BUT. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word for Hell is mistranslation of the Greek word Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”. Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.Again notice who this verse is addressing"brother".The fire God pours out on mankind is not literal fire, totally figuratively.
     
  5. Deadwheat1224

    Deadwheat1224 New Member

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    I was mostly just referring to Rev 3:16 "So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth."I believe the word "Anathema" is used to mean "spit-out". Not the referrence to Gehenna that I originally thought was there. But my reasoning was that in order to be lukewarm you had to be some sort of believer in the first place.Basically I agree with you though, Gehenna (in scripture) is primarily for unsaved believers.
     
  6. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    I take it a step further how about believers who are not overcomers, those who are carnal, those who have not developed or matured fully; God's fire is spiritual in nature not literal. We carnal or so often religious believes take too much literally; God is a spirit and His Word is spirit and truth; not the letter that killeth.When I look for answers in God's Word I try to see what examples God gives us on the subject; fire is a perfect example on how God's Spiritual Word works.here is why I say this.. 1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)Pro. 25: 2It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter The Bible is so full of signs and symbols, types, shadows, parables, hidden manna and these realities are found and established all though the Bible. God is spiritual and is the essence of life; that which is spiritual is beyond human/ carnal/religious understanding and is deep; the letter killeth; in other words the carnal earthy understanding killeth.
     
  7. Deadwheat1224

    Deadwheat1224 New Member

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    Yep! I'm pretty sure I completely agree with you.
     
  8. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    The saints will be given the gift of eternal life by Christ when He comes at the Second Coming, saying that they are sent to be purified by fire of Gehenna or any flames, just is not in the Bible. Here are some good verses that explain the day of destruction for the wicked where they are completely destroyed. "That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30. • How will they be destroyed?"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalms 21:9. • What will happen to evildoers?"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth." Psalms 37:9. • What will happen to the wicked?"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10. • Will the wicked go on living throughout eternity?"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20. • So the wicked will be destroyed and not burn forever?"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 37:38. • But doesn't "cut off" only mean they will be separated from God?"As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God." Psalms 68:2. • So then this must mean that the wicked will be no more or consumed?"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD." Psalms 104:35. • So there will be a final destruction of the wicked, they will not burn in hell for eternity?"The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalms 145:20. • What method will God use to destroy the wicked?"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. • But I thought the soul never dies?"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4. • Will the wicked be burned up completely?"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18. • So they will cease to exist? "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19. • How does God feel about the final destruction of the wicked?"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11. • So after the destruction of the wicked, sin will never rise up again?"What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry." Nahum 1:9-10. • How complete will the final destruction of the wicked be? "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1. What does Christ say about the destruction of the wicked? "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." Matthew 13:40. In Matthew 25:41 he speaks of "everlasting fire" for the wicked. Does it go out? "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41.? Yes, as we saw before according to the Bible, it does. We must read and let the Holy Spirit guide us and let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that after should live ungodly." "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7. "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes. "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:3. The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.
     
  9. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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  10. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    Thats for the elect only, not unbelievers, the children of the devil..for they didnt build on the sure foundation of Jesus christ.. 1 cor 3: 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Your wresting scripture to your own destruction..get ready for judgment day..
     
  11. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    double post
     
  12. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    I cound not find the word elect in "1 Corinthians 3:13-15" could you point it out for me? Or are you just adding to God's Word? 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. In fact chaff and the wheat are not even interchangeable until the wheat has reached maturity. God’s Word is our bread, which is made from wheat; which was part of the chaff in its immaturity. The wheat had to be gathered, winnowed and crushed; then mixed with oil (anointing) and water and then placed in an oven to be baked; later the bread was broken; symbolism. The very bread millions break in communion and wonder why?Do you know anything about farming? Today we have these Hugh combines that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and their job is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Did you know the land that purchased to build temple of God would stand on was a threshing floor. WOW thing of that for a moment?Chaff in Bible days was not an easy process to separate; but the point I really want to make is the wheat is always hidden under the green chaff when it is growing; (our spirit is hidden under our body of flesh/ our carnal reasoning and mind).
     
  13. savedbygrace57

    savedbygrace57 New Member

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    I cant find where this passage says it doesnt apply to the elect only, if you find that portion, point it out..
     
  14. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    My friends, read what the Bible says, dont put private interpretations or traditions from pagan mythology, read and understand. Lets take a look at how Christ will return at the Second Coming....And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'. Acts 1:9-l l. Christ will return at the second coming in the clouds together with His angels. Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism. Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels). ...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30(Also see Matthew 26:64; Mark 13:26; Mark 14:62; and Revelation 1:7.)...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. Matthew 25:31...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26 The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible....Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him. Revelation 1:7Now Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:26,27...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 The Second Coming Will be Audible...And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16 The Lord will not come down to the earth, but will meet the redeemed in the sky.....For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31 NIVThe Bible clearly lays out the Second Coming of Christ, so that we would not be deceived by false christs or mans false doctrines, look at what it says not what false teachings try to push.
     
  15. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    1 cor 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Are you spinning this valid point; show me where it says “elect” anything about the elect, one small point about the elect,. I really do not care to go round and around on a valid point which is nothing but childish and totally irrelevant? The verse says every mans works nothing about the elect, on the contrary every man’s works. Is this the only way you can prove you're false doctrine by spinning or adding to scripture? :mad:
     
  16. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    Hobie, Two points... I will use to post to address these issues.The is NO second coming; you need to look closer and see the Bible never addresses the two words "second coming". This is the problem with religion today is they are shown something and then like the Jews during Jesus day they refuse to see anything more; I do not believe in you’re so called rapture lie or you’re so called second coming which are just religious falsehoods and not even scriptural. "I WILL COME in to HIM, and will sup with him and he with me." Ah, is this the so-called "second coming" of Christ? He does not come once and in just one way. He comes and comes and comes in the progressive revelation of HIMSELF! Clearly that there are more than two comings of Christ mentioned in the Bible, and that trying to apply all the scriptures on the Lord's coming to just two comings, has caused a lot of confusion and erroneous teaching and has caused the Lord's people to miss completely some of the most marvelous aspects of God's great and wonderful purposes. On the day of Pentecost Christ came again as the Comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of Truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He DWELLS WITH YOU, and shall be IN YOU. I will not leave you comfortless (orphans): I WILL COME UNTO YOU. Yet A little while, and the world sees me no more; but YOU SEE ME: because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I IN YOU" (Jn. 14:16-20). In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing.
     
  17. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    Hobie my other point: Comes with CloudSSome people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories. 1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. exampleExample: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)Pro. 25: 2It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matterAnother proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS."There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds.And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).
     
  18. Deadwheat1224

    Deadwheat1224 New Member

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    "My friends, read what the Bible says, dont put private interpretations or traditions from pagan mythology, read and understand. Lets take a look at how Christ will return at the Second Coming...."The Bible cannot be read well without looking at the historical context and point of view in which the author wrote it. If you read the Bible strictly literally there are so many contradictions that either you have to ignore or make up some strange reason as to why they are there. I know that most people on this board will disagree with this... but the Bible should only be interpreted within the context of the tradition of the Church ( 1Timothy 3: 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. )Secondly Benoni,"There is NO second coming" ---While I think I see your point of ongoing revelation, and I myself do not subscribe to the belief of the rapture, Paul does speak often of the "Paraouisa" which is the "Return" of Christ. I'm not sure you're completely ruling this out, but I thought I'd point it out.Peace
     
  19. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    My brother, you are fighting against what Christ himself told us.

    John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Now as to the 'Rapture' many people are picking up the false Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture", which teachs the idea that if you are a real Christian you will be caught up in the secret rapture to be with Christ. To arrive at this the Scripture has to be twisted and taken out of context. Here are some of the texts that have been quoted as referring to the rapture:

    The Church will meet Christ in the air - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    The Church will be taken to heaven - 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:3

    Christ will come for His saints - 2 Thessalonians 2:1

    The rapture is a mystery - 1 Corinthians 15:51

    The righteous will be removed - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    The verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 used in 1, 2, and 5 has been twisted to make it seem to say the things they claim. Let us look at this verse in context with the verses around it.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

    Verse 14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

    Verse 15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

    Verse 16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

    Verse 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Verse 18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

    Verses 13 - 15 says sorrow not for those that are asleep or dead, Jesus died and rose again and so conquered death. When He comes again these people He will raise from the grave as verse 16 explains and then in verse 17 we which are alive and remain will be caught up with those that have been raised from the grave to be ever with the Lord Jesus Christ. This quote can fit nowhere else but the second coming of Jesus - verse 15.

    John 14:3 tells us that after Jesus arose, He told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them, referring also to all the righteous, and that he was coming again to receive all the righteous unto Himself. It is refering to the time when Christ comes at His 2nd coming.

    John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."

    Verse 2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

    Verse 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
     
  20. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now lets get back to topic...here is another good explanation on 'forever' in these excerpts from 'The Death of Death!': The words “eternal” and “for ever” do not always have in Hebrew (olam) and Greek (aion, aionios) the absolute meaning of unending time in English. Let us see three examples of use of three Hebrew words (Old Testament) for “everlasting” and three in Greek (New Testament) that don’t convey any notion of unending time: In Psalm 23:6 it says: “I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever-olam”. However, comparing different versions one notices that different translators preferred to translate olam in this verse as “for long days” or, as it is presented in the French version of Louis Segond, “jusq’au fin de mes jours” [until the end of my days]! The prophet Jonah, tells of his plight in these terms: “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever-olam; yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God” (Jonas 2:6). What a brief “forever” was that--it lasted a total of. . . just three days and three nights! Hebrews 6:2 speak of the “eternal-aionios judgment”. This does not mean that the judgment is a process that has a start but does not have an end, rather that the judgment is of eternal consequences and/or effect. The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha was “eternal” (Jude 7), however the city is not burning until today, because it was a eternal fire in its consequences (or effects). Finally, Greek dictionaries explain this: “The word aion can be used of a man’s lifetime, as when Paul contemplates eating ‘no flesh for evermore’ (1 Cor. 8:13)”. -- Alan Richardson, A Theological Word Book of the Bible, 1950, art. “Time”, p. 266. “Describes duration . . . not endless”. -- W. E. Vine, Dictionary of the New Testament Words, on “Eternal”. And discussing the meaning of the Hebrew olam, Genesius in his Hebrew and Chaldean Lexicon of the Old Testament Scriptures explains: “It more often refers to future time, in such a manner, that what is called the terminus ad quem, is always defined from the nature of the thing itself. When it is applied to human affairs, and specially . . . to individual men, it commonly signifies all the days of life”....
     
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