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The Bible on Hell (as Tartarus and Gehenna and Hades)

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Hobie, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    You see the spirit is that part of God that is not touched by the carnality of man's flesh; we are here for a purpose to overcome though lifes trials in tribulations. God is not calling all people now.If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop. This verse is pregnant with God’s plan for all humanity. 1 Corinthians 15:22-58For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:If God does not call you, you cannot come, you do not have the freewill, the choice to come.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Yea well, your opinion, and clearly your opinion doesn't line up with God's Words and it doesn't matter if you quote Strongs with it... just a pure twist of men's way of thinking.Let me remind you of my good old friend along with a couple more scriptures.
    Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Also Mark 2:17 and Luke 5:32)II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
     
  3. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    double post
     
  4. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    AMAZING....I am twisting God's Word? BUT I am quoting God's Word. But you cannot back it up with God's Word?Where did you find my opinion in what I have posted?Sounds more like you do not like what scripture declares and cannot SPIN scripture to line up with your bias view point. You have shown me nothing; these verse have nothing to do with freewill or choice when it comes to God's calling. Here is another verse that that declares God is not calling all men, and I did not need Strong's as you as an excuse for you to refute. It is God who caused the fall; it is God who will restore all things; HIS order, file or rant not your's. Romans 8:20 Acts 2:39"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.".
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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  6. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    So what is you're point?The lost do not know God. They will not keep His commandments because all they know and understand is darkness.Not u ntil God calls them, quicken them they have no freewill or choice.
     
  7. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    Tartarus is a prisonlike, abased condition into which God cast disobedient angels in Noah’s day. This word is found but once in the inspired Scriptures, at 2 Peter 2:4. The apostle writes: “God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.” The expression “throwing them into Tartarus” is from the Greek verb tar·ta·ro´o and so includes within itself the word “Tartarus.”

    A parallel text is found at Jude 6: “And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” Showing when it was that these angels “forsook their own proper dwelling place,” Peter speaks of “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” (1 Pet 3:19, 20) This directly links the matter to the account at Genesis 6:1-4 concerning “the sons of the true God” who abandoned their heavenly abode to cohabit with women in pre-Flood times and produced children by them, such offspring being designated as Nephilim.

    From these texts it is evident that Tartarus is a condition rather than a particular location, inasmuch as Peter, on the one hand, speaks of these disobedient spirits as being in “pits of dense darkness,” while Paul speaks of them as being in “heavenly places” from which they exercise a rule of darkness as wicked spirit forces. (2 Pet 2:4; Eph 6:10-12) The dense darkness similarly is not literally a lack of light but results from their being cut off from illumination by God as renegades and outcasts from his family, with only a dark outlook as to their eternal destiny.

    Tartarus is, therefore, not the same as the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades, both of which refer to the common earthly grave of mankind. This is evident from the fact that, while the apostle Peter shows that Jesus Christ preached to these “spirits in prison,” he also shows that Jesus did so, not during the three days while buried in Hades (Sheol), but after his resurrection out of Hades.(1 Pet 3:18-20)

    Likewise the abased condition represented by Tartarus should not be confused with “the abyss” into which Satan and his demons are eventually to be cast for the thousand years of Christ’s rule. (Rev 20:1-3) Apparently the disobedient angels were cast into Tartarus in “Noah’s days” (1 Pet 3:20), but some 2,000 years later we find them entreating Jesus “not to order them to go away into the abyss.”(Luke 8:26-31)

    The word “Tartarus” is also used in pre-Christian heathen mythologies. In Homer’s Iliad this mythological Tartarus is represented as an underground prison ‘as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.’ In it were imprisoned the lesser gods, Cronus and the other Titan spirits. On the other hand, the Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition and, therefore, is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology. However, it is worth noting that the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans but as a place for superhuman creatures. So, in that regard there is a similarity, since the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls (compare Matt 11:23) but is only for wicked superhuman spirits who are rebels against God.

    The condition of utter debasement represented by Tartarus is a precursor of the abyssing that Satan and his demons are to experience prior to the start of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. This, in turn, is to be followed after the end of the thousand years by their utter destruction in “the second death.”(Matt 25:41; Rev 20:1-3, 7-10, 14)

    (Source of information - Insight on the Scriptures, Vol 2)
     
  8. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    God's fire is spiritual and corrective, what better example then Gehenna and espeicially The Lake of Divine Purging. Yes the fires in the OT toward the disobedient or misinformed people who did not do the right thing; there earthy body was gone, burnt up; but always their spirit returns to God who gave it.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    What I am saying to you is figuratively, or by using the scriptural symbolic language found in both NT and OT. Or another word examples point to what God’s Word is declaring about Gehenna or the Lake of Fire; (by the way I already said I cannot link these two places in scripture) let us not ask believe and trust the established; but reached out to what God’s Word is saying.

    1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

    Matthew 5:22
    But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

    The below listed verse are good reference to Gehenna

    Isaiah 30:33
    Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

    The breath of the Lord (the spirit of the Lord) like a stream of burning sulfur (same as brimstone) which was used for purification (total symbolic language) Wood speaks of carnal nature (wood/hay stubble)


    Jeremiah 7:31-32
    They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

    Here Gehenna is established as a place of burning dead bodies/rubbish and Gehenna is located just outside of the gate of Jersalem.



    Jeremiah 19:13-15
    The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.' "

    Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD's temple and said to all the people, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.' "

    That is Gehenna Judgment that Jesus came and warned Isreal about.

    Matthew 23:29-39

    "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

    "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell (Gehenna)? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

    Jeremiah 7:33-34
    " 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

    Do you see it? This is the Judgment of Gehenna against Israel and all who persist in unbelief. However; although this happens it is not the end. God through Jesus, is restoring Israel, but not the natural nation but a spiritual nation of all mankind. All have sinned, none are righteous, no not one. All have been disobedient and therefore mercy is over them all.
     
  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Hobie you should try using small paragraphs when posting making them easier to read.
     
  10. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    My brother, the wicked unless they turn from sin will perish at the judgement at the lake of fire.


    Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
    2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
    3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

    Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

    Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

    Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
    12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

    John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
     
  11. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    What a Old thread to be getting a e-mail about!!!!!! WoW!!! and I see Jiggyfly????? Woot!!! It just gets better.............Hello Jiggyfly!!!!!!!!! be blessed.

    I read everything again to see who was standing where.............. back and forth, things just don't change I guess.

    It sort of reminds me of long ago when I played Dungeon and Dragons. There were all kinds of level's of Hell with different functions.

    I Like to keep it simple, as Dungeon and Dragons was not a simple game.

    Avoid Tartarus, Gehenna, Hades, Purgatory, and whatever else you "Think" you pull out of the Greek. Stick with Jesus!!! All will be good then.

    Jesus Is Lord.......... everyone be blessed.
     
  12. bling

    bling New Member

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    Where does it say the sinner has eternal life?

    Why are we here on earth in the first place?
    I do not believe we are here to be tested, but to accept God's Love which is an undeserved unconditional gift. Most of us do not like taking Charity.
     
  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Is there any scripture that says we must accept God's love before our flesh dies?
     
  14. bling

    bling New Member

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    No, and you will not find one. If the Bible said "you must do something" then that would be a "command" or order to do it. If you did a command then you would have done something (work). God's Love is a free undeserving and unconditional free gift, that we do not follow an order to recieve, but just have to except. In order to follow a god given command corrctly you must have Love, bu the unbeliever can trust God enough to accept God's Love without being forced to follow a command.
     
  15. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    In order for one to benefit everlastingly, a person, while alive in the flesh, has to closely adhere to God's laws and principles, as found in the Bible. Moses told the nation of Israel, that "if your heart turns away and you do not listen, and you are actually seduced and bow down to other gods and serve them, I do tell you today that you will positively perish...I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction, and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days."(Deut 30:17-20)

    A person, while alive in the flesh, must listen to their Creator. In admonishing the nation of Israel, God said: "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk."(Isa 48:17) The result ? "Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea."(Isa 48:18) A river nor waves of the ocean ever stop. Likewise, the peace that comes from listening to our Creator will result in everlasting peace, and for many, on a paradise earth. Psalms 37:11 says that "the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

    Hence, a person must accept God's love while alive, for when they die, they are "conscious of nothing at all"(Eccl 9:5), returning to "dust" just as Adam was told that upon his death he would become once again.(Gen 3:19)
     
  16. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Like I said, Is there any scripture that says we must accept God's love before our flesh dies?
     
  17. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    There is no scripture that says specifically that "we must accept God's love before our flesh dies." For example, nowhere in the Bible does it say that cigarette smoking is wrong in exactly those words. However, the Bible has established principles that guides a true Christian. At 2 Corinthians 7:1, the apostle Paul wrote: "Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear."

    Is there a need to have a specific command to not smoke ? No ! Those who understand what it means to "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear", clearly recognize that anything that is intentionally detrimental to the body is wrong in God's eyes without the need for a specific scripture.

    Just as when a person understands electrical theory, he then can make application of electricity anywhere in the world, being as electro-magnetism is a universal law, one of the four fundemental laws governing the universe. Likewise of those who read the Bible and follow what Proverbs 15:28 says: "The heart of the righteous one meditates so as to answer, but the mouth of the wicked ones bubbles forth with bad things."

    Under the Mosaic Law covenant, the nation of Israel were guided by the over 600 laws presented to them by Moses from God.(Deut 27:3, 8) Yet, when Jesus came as the Christ or "anointed one of God" and died on the torture stake in 33 C.E., he removed these "decrees" from the Jews to observe (Eph 2:15) and established the "law of the Christ."(Gal 6:2) No longer were there detailed laws specifying what and what not to do, but rather the spirit of the law, that of ' loving God with all one's heart, mind, soul and strength' (Deut 6:5) and "your neighbor as yourself."(Lev 19:18)

    And that is why many fail to grasp what the Bible really teaches, for these are looking for a specific scripture to prop up their belief rather than what Jesus said was the need to ' get the sense of the kingdom ' at Matthew 13:13.
     
  18. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Smoke or no smoke is a religious opinion and so to build a case against UR using such a method is very weak. Jesus said it's not what goes in your mouth that defiles you but rather what comes out of your mouth.
     
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