What about um. These eight events are extremely special in history because they lined up with Tetrads. It's only happened eight times in history.pom2014 said:
But we can know the day and hour. Read post 18.HeartSearcher said:
The Blood moons the rapture and the end times?
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Well I don't really think so Jesus said we wouldn't he said even he wouldn't know and yet we could? Plus there is something about the day and hour thing. some ppl interpret the hour as a certain designated time like say a year or two months others interpret it as a literal hour. So I have to wonder which kind of hour we won't knowATP said:
That scripture is referring to nonbelievers not knowing. Believers will also be given signs on that day, through the sun, moon, stars and earthquakes...HeartSearcher said:
Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
The context of "hour and day" here is just what your refer to as being close or urgent. We are not to live as such, but to live out our walk, DAILY.HeartSearcher said:
I have ATP on ignore but I would not listen to him in this regard.
And I would disregard what StanJ is saying.
A good study of scripture proves Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers.
The evidence is there. 1 Thess 5:4 NIV is clear on this matter...
Matt 24:36 has unbeliever written all over it. If Matt 24:36 says we will not know the day, then why does 1 Thess 5:4 says we will know. The "Days of Noah" describe the flesh of the world, but scripture clearly states that we are no longer of this world. Matt 24:37-39 NIV. The day of the Lord will come like a thief to (nonbelievers).
Matt 24:36-39 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
A good study of scripture proves Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers.
The evidence is there. 1 Thess 5:4 NIV is clear on this matter...
Matt 24:36 has unbeliever written all over it. If Matt 24:36 says we will not know the day, then why does 1 Thess 5:4 says we will know. The "Days of Noah" describe the flesh of the world, but scripture clearly states that we are no longer of this world. Matt 24:37-39 NIV. The day of the Lord will come like a thief to (nonbelievers).
Matt 24:36-39 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
No there was no indication of which day or hour he was coming but in both dreams there was that sense of knowing that he was finally coming for us, tbh it was almost as if the holy spirit was the one saying this to all the believersStanJ said:
Ah I see what you mean now, and it kind of goes with the dreams I had. The interesting thing is of all the many rapture dreams I have had the first one which was the one with that sense of knowing in our spirit was the best. We were all so happy and excited it felt like he would appear any second but we had no idea when and we all were trying to not be caught by surprise lol. But I tell you the joy and excitement we felt in that dream- I have never felt such a thing beforeATP said:
I have felt the same way watching an MLB game on TV when my team wins, but that good feeling does not mean they will continue to win and go to the World Series.HeartSearcher said:
I would caution you about reading to much of scripture into dreams. The mind is very complex and many have been misdirected because of dreams. First, KNOW the Bible, then you can, if required, interpret your dreams with it. I think I have clearly shown you that the Bible does NOT support your POV of the rapture being immanent.
Well it wasn't good feeling it was a sense of knowing but regardless I don't focus on my dreams or even the rapture for that matter I focus on seeking God and become closer to him. It was a dream whether it was from God or not a dream is not to be focused onStanJ said:
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, ATP.
I guarantee you that Noach (Noah) didn’t know exactly when God would shut the door, but he knew that He would send the rain in HIS timing.
The same thing is true here.
Regarding astronomy/astrology: You said, “God made the sun and moon land on Jewish Holidays.” That’s BACKWARDS! God made the sun and moon, PERIOD! The Jewish calendar was made to coincide with the sun and moon. Jewish Holidays, whether demanded of God or by children of Israel later, were made to coincide with the sun and moon, too! Don’t get the cart before the horse!
One more thing: True astronomy is noting that God made the stars, the sun, and the moon, as well as the earth, and for us to enjoy the wonders of what He has created. Astrology tries to treat them as gods, as though their positions and influence could affect our future! Tell me this: Which one is the “four blood moon” theory doing?
We may no longer be “in the world,” that is, within the world-SYSTEM of politics and government (Greek: kosmos), but that does NOT mean that we are no longer “in the EARTH!” Be careful and know the difference between the two.
Ah. “Surprise.” Note: This verse (1 Thessalonians 5:4) does NOT say anything contradictory! It’s talking about our ANTICIPATION and our EXPECTATION for that day, not that we know WHEN it will arrive! We believe and know our Lord so well, that we KNOW that His promises are true. We believe that the day will come so well, that we KNOW it will come! Others are stuck in their doubts and denials.ATP said:
I guarantee you that Noach (Noah) didn’t know exactly when God would shut the door, but he knew that He would send the rain in HIS timing.
The same thing is true here.
Regarding astronomy/astrology: You said, “God made the sun and moon land on Jewish Holidays.” That’s BACKWARDS! God made the sun and moon, PERIOD! The Jewish calendar was made to coincide with the sun and moon. Jewish Holidays, whether demanded of God or by children of Israel later, were made to coincide with the sun and moon, too! Don’t get the cart before the horse!
One more thing: True astronomy is noting that God made the stars, the sun, and the moon, as well as the earth, and for us to enjoy the wonders of what He has created. Astrology tries to treat them as gods, as though their positions and influence could affect our future! Tell me this: Which one is the “four blood moon” theory doing?
We may no longer be “in the world,” that is, within the world-SYSTEM of politics and government (Greek: kosmos), but that does NOT mean that we are no longer “in the EARTH!” Be careful and know the difference between the two.
lol it was never an issue I was merely speaking of my dream because of it's relevancyStanJ said:
I think you're reading too much into it. The days of Noah are clearly speaking of nonbelievers not knowing, and the Lord will come like a thief to THEM. But you, brothers and sisters, believers in Christ...........Retrobyter said:
1. for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
2. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Matt 24:36-39 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
I agree, God made the sun and moon. You're not taking into account that Tetrads on Jewish Holidays have only occurred eight times in history in 6,000 years. And Israel so happens to become a nation and takes back Jerusalem in the last two Tetrads. This is no coincidence. This is the power of God working. In the 1967 war, there were stories of guns jamming and ammo not releasing also.Retrobyter said:
I agree, astrology is false. Man and his silly idols made up pisces, leo, capricorn etc...Retrobyter said:
The four blood moons is not a theory, the eight Tetrads have been confirmed by NASA data.
Correct, we are no longer of the world but we are still in the world.
- ATP
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, ATP.
Look, there’s nothing negative in the statement, “in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.” It just means that life was going on as usual; it doesn’t mean that they were doing anything evil in living life as usual! They just never expected the Flood to occur (even though they should have, if they had heard Noach’s proclamation)! It truly took most of them by surprise! And, that was Yeshua`s point!
The same thing can be said about “Peace and safety” in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4. There’s nothing evil about saying that. Jews say “shalom” all the time. They say it for “hello” and for “goodbye,” and they say it for encouragement. Guys who grew up in the 70s and 80s will say “peace” with the first and second fingers raised in a “V” symbol. Is that wrong? Car companies are dedicated to the well-being of their customers and tout the “safety” of their vehicles. Is that bad? It’s just that, no matter what their focus may be, the future destruction will likewise be unexpected.
Regarding the “tetrad,” YOU need to understand that IT DOESN’T MATTER! Sometimes, God PURPOSELY distracts with “astronomic oddities” to throw those expectations off track! It’s just WRONG to COUNT on God working during a “tetrad,” rather than God working WHEN HE WANTS TO WORK! He MAY do something for His people during the “tetrad,” but then again, He MAY NOT! DON’T COUNT ON IT! That’s all I’m saying.
No, sir. It’s not about “nonbelievers”; it’s about being HUMAN! It doesn’t matter whether a person is a believer or not! God reserves the knowledge of the future for HIMSELF ALONE! Very seldom does He choose to reveal SOME of that future in prophecy! It’s not that I’m reading too much into it; it’s that I take God at His word!ATP said:
Look, there’s nothing negative in the statement, “in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.” It just means that life was going on as usual; it doesn’t mean that they were doing anything evil in living life as usual! They just never expected the Flood to occur (even though they should have, if they had heard Noach’s proclamation)! It truly took most of them by surprise! And, that was Yeshua`s point!
The same thing can be said about “Peace and safety” in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4. There’s nothing evil about saying that. Jews say “shalom” all the time. They say it for “hello” and for “goodbye,” and they say it for encouragement. Guys who grew up in the 70s and 80s will say “peace” with the first and second fingers raised in a “V” symbol. Is that wrong? Car companies are dedicated to the well-being of their customers and tout the “safety” of their vehicles. Is that bad? It’s just that, no matter what their focus may be, the future destruction will likewise be unexpected.
Regarding the “tetrad,” YOU need to understand that IT DOESN’T MATTER! Sometimes, God PURPOSELY distracts with “astronomic oddities” to throw those expectations off track! It’s just WRONG to COUNT on God working during a “tetrad,” rather than God working WHEN HE WANTS TO WORK! He MAY do something for His people during the “tetrad,” but then again, He MAY NOT! DON’T COUNT ON IT! That’s all I’m saying.
I disagree. Nonbelievers will not be caught up at the coming of the Son of Man at rapture. Matt 24:39-41 is rapture scripture, Jesus is using figurative language here....and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.Retrobyter said:
I understand what you're saying, believe me. Something may never happen you're right. It also depends on if America repents and turns back to God. You do know about the Harbingers manifesting in America right?Retrobyter said:
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, ATP.
Kata Maththaion 24:37-42
37 Hoosper gar hai heemerai tou Nooe houtoos estai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou
38 Hoos gar eesan en tais heemerais ekeinais tais pro tou kataklusmou troogontes kai pinontes gamountes kai gamizontes achri hees heemeras eiseelthen Nooe eis teen kibooton,
39 kai ouk egnoosan heoos eelthen ho kataklusmos kai eeren hapantas, houtoos estai kai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou.
40 Tote duo esontai en too agroo, heis paralambanetai kai heis afietai;
41 duo aleethousai en too muloo, mia paralambanetai kai mia afietai.
42 Greegoreite oun, hoti ouk oidate poia heemera ho Kurios humoon erchetai.
UBS Greek New Testament
37 Hoosper 37 Like/As-through
gar = for
hai = the
heemerai = days
tou = of-the
Nooe = Noach/Noah
houtoos = so/likewise
estai = shall-be
hee = the
parousia = arrival
tou = of-the
Huiou = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou. = Man.
38 Hoos = 38 Like/As
gar = for
eesan = they-were
en = in
tais = the
heemerais = days
ekeinais = those-ones
tais = they
pro = before
tou = the
kataklusmou = Flood/cataclysm
troogontes = were-eating
kai = and/also
pinontes, = were-drinking,
gamountes = were-getting-married
kai = and/also
gamizontes, = were-giving-away-in-marriage,
achri = until
hees = the
heemeras = day
eiseelthen = entered
Nooe = Noach/Noah
eis = into
teen = the
kibooton, = box/ark,
39 kai = 39 and/also
ouk = not
egnoosan = they-knew
heoos = until
eelthen = came
ho = the
kataklusmos = Flood/cataclysm
kai = and/also
eeren = it-took-away
hapantas, = absolutely-all/everyone,
houtoos = so
estai = (it)-shall-be
kai = and/also
hee = the
parousia = arrival
tou = of-the
Huiou = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou. = Man.
40 Tote = 40 Then
duo = two
esontai = shall-be
en = in
too = the
agroo, = field,
heis = one (masculine)
paralambanetai = shall-be-received-near
kai = and/also
heis = one (masculine)
afietai; = shall-be-sent-away;
41 duo = 41 two
aleethousai = grinding
en = in
too = the
muloo, = mill,
mia = one (feminine)
paralambanetai = shall-be-received-near
kai = and/also
mia = one (feminine)
afietai. = shall-be-sent-away.
42 Greegoreite = 42 (You)-stay-awake
oun, = therefore,
hoti = because
ouk = not
oidate = you-do-know
poia = what
heemera = day
ho = the
Kurios = Lord/Master
humoon = of-you/your
erchetai. = shall-come.
There’s nothing in the passage that suggests a vertical movement. In fact, these actions of “receiving near” and “sending away” suggest normal horizontal movement!
Lastly, I don’t know to which harbingers you refer, but I would think that Israel has more to what happens in prophecy than does the USA.
Well, if you believe that this is a “rapture” passage, it’s NO WONDER that you disagree! However, “the coming of the Son of Man” (Greek: “hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou”) is the “SECOND Coming.” Don’t be misled about verses 40 and 41. They have been used for the “rapture” by preachers for many years, but the context doesn’t support that theory.ATP said:
Kata Maththaion 24:37-42
37 Hoosper gar hai heemerai tou Nooe houtoos estai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou
38 Hoos gar eesan en tais heemerais ekeinais tais pro tou kataklusmou troogontes kai pinontes gamountes kai gamizontes achri hees heemeras eiseelthen Nooe eis teen kibooton,
39 kai ouk egnoosan heoos eelthen ho kataklusmos kai eeren hapantas, houtoos estai kai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou.
40 Tote duo esontai en too agroo, heis paralambanetai kai heis afietai;
41 duo aleethousai en too muloo, mia paralambanetai kai mia afietai.
42 Greegoreite oun, hoti ouk oidate poia heemera ho Kurios humoon erchetai.
UBS Greek New Testament
37 Hoosper 37 Like/As-through
gar = for
hai = the
heemerai = days
tou = of-the
Nooe = Noach/Noah
houtoos = so/likewise
estai = shall-be
hee = the
parousia = arrival
tou = of-the
Huiou = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou. = Man.
38 Hoos = 38 Like/As
gar = for
eesan = they-were
en = in
tais = the
heemerais = days
ekeinais = those-ones
tais = they
pro = before
tou = the
kataklusmou = Flood/cataclysm
troogontes = were-eating
kai = and/also
pinontes, = were-drinking,
gamountes = were-getting-married
kai = and/also
gamizontes, = were-giving-away-in-marriage,
achri = until
hees = the
heemeras = day
eiseelthen = entered
Nooe = Noach/Noah
eis = into
teen = the
kibooton, = box/ark,
39 kai = 39 and/also
ouk = not
egnoosan = they-knew
heoos = until
eelthen = came
ho = the
kataklusmos = Flood/cataclysm
kai = and/also
eeren = it-took-away
hapantas, = absolutely-all/everyone,
houtoos = so
estai = (it)-shall-be
kai = and/also
hee = the
parousia = arrival
tou = of-the
Huiou = Son
tou = of-the
Anthroopou. = Man.
40 Tote = 40 Then
duo = two
esontai = shall-be
en = in
too = the
agroo, = field,
heis = one (masculine)
paralambanetai = shall-be-received-near
kai = and/also
heis = one (masculine)
afietai; = shall-be-sent-away;
41 duo = 41 two
aleethousai = grinding
en = in
too = the
muloo, = mill,
mia = one (feminine)
paralambanetai = shall-be-received-near
kai = and/also
mia = one (feminine)
afietai. = shall-be-sent-away.
42 Greegoreite = 42 (You)-stay-awake
oun, = therefore,
hoti = because
ouk = not
oidate = you-do-know
poia = what
heemera = day
ho = the
Kurios = Lord/Master
humoon = of-you/your
erchetai. = shall-come.
There’s nothing in the passage that suggests a vertical movement. In fact, these actions of “receiving near” and “sending away” suggest normal horizontal movement!
Lastly, I don’t know to which harbingers you refer, but I would think that Israel has more to what happens in prophecy than does the USA.
Incorrect, "the coming of the Son of Man" refers to the first resurrection, rapture and then the wrath of God poured out...Retrobyter said:
Matt 24:30 NIV “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Matt 25:31-33 NIV “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Luke 21:27 NIV At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Also, the rapture and the second coming are two different events. The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Rev 19:11-16. Matt 24:40-41 are definitely rapture scriptures. Jesus will come like a thief to nonbelievers and in a twinkling of an eye to believers..
Matt 24:43-44But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
We will even be given signs in the sun, moon, stars, earthquakes right before He comes down in the clouds...
Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Well, that's the thing. The Harbingers that manifested in Israel 2,000 years ago in Isa 9:10 NIV when Israel was destroyed, had again manifested in America in 2001 and 2008. The next seven years after that is 2015. Have you ever heard of the Shemittah Retrobyter? The Shemittah occurs every seven years. Even WWI and WWII can be traced back to the Shemittah, that book is also in post 2 on this thread. In regards to the Harbingers, there are nine harbingers that have already manifested in America. Harbingers are warning signs from God to nations, warnings in which judgment is coming to a certain nation. Isa 9:10 is a judgment scripture, but ironically America thinks it's a "rebuilding" scripture; not knowing they were speaking in defiance against God. Not only were there two witnesses, but three...Retrobyter said:
Tom Daschle - youtube / watch?v=ukYiWd3T9sk
John Edwards - youtube / watch?v=Ts1IOn57a6s
Obama - youtube / watch?v=5HBJ9v5KxPo
Deut 19:15 NIV One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
2 Cor 13:1 NIV This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
The Nine Harbingers
The book draws parallels between the Kingdom of Israel and the United States. The author argues that America was founded similar to ancient Israel and the Founding Fathers envisioned a country based on the rules of God and a Light Unto the Nations. The author lists a series of warnings or harbingers that were given to ancient Israel before its final destruction by the Assyrians and makes a parallel between each and the events of 9/11.
A summary of Harbingers mentioned in the book are as follows:
1. The Breach: The author argues that the United States just like ancient Israel has breached the covenant it made with God at the time of its foundation. Thus the hedge of God's protection around America was lifted on 9/11 similar to the way the hedge of protection around ancient Israel was lifted.
2. The Terrorist: The author argues that similar to the way that the kingdom of Israel was attacked by Assyrians, United States was attacked by Al-Qaeda. The Assyrians were a Semitic people, children of the Middle East. So too were the terrorists of 9/11.
3. Fallen Bricks: The most visible signs of the attack on ancient Israel were that of the fallen buildings and the ruin heaps of fallen bricks. In 9/11 the most visible site of the attack was also the fallen bricks of the fallen buildings.
4. The Tower: The harbinger symbolizes the fact that after the Assyrian attack, the kingdom of Israel did not repent from its sins but vowed to rebuild its buildings with its own power. Similarly the author argues that United States also did not repent from its sins after the warning and continued its path, vowing to rebuild on Ground Zero with its own power.
5. Gazit Stone: The Israelites carve out quarried stone from mountain rock and bring it back to the ground of destruction where clay bricks once stood. Three years after 9/11, a 20-ton quarried rock meant to serve as the cornerstone of the new building was brought to Ground Zero. A ceremony took place over the rock in which New York Governor George Pataki pronounced: "Today, we, the heirs of that revolutionary spirit of defiance, lay this cornerstone and unmistakably signal to the world the unwavering strength of this nation, and our resolve to fight for freedom.”[6] Eventually, the stone was removed from Ground Zero.[2]
6. Sycamore: In Isaiah 9:10, the nation of Israel declares that its sycamore trees have been destroyed by the Assyrians during the attack but they would replace them with cedar trees. After the collapse of the buildings during the 9/11 attacks, a shock wave was created that damaged most buildings around the area. Only one building was not harmed which was St. Paul's Chapel, which was protected by a sycamore tree that is believed to have captured the blast.[7][8] Cahn points out that St. Paul's Chapel was also the place that the government of the United States prayed on the day of the first inauguration of George Washington on April 30, 1789. The sycamore is known today as the 9/11 Sycamore and a memorial was built for it.
7. Erez Tree: In Isaiah 9:10, the nation of Israel vows to replace the damaged sycamores with cedars, which are stronger. Two years after the events of 9/11, on November 29, 2003, an actual tree was planted in the place of the original sycamore in front of St. Paul's Chapel. This tree was a 21-foot spruce tree and was called the Tree of Hope. The tree itself no longer exists, as it died and was dug up and destroyed and not replaced. [9]
8. The Utterance: Or the “the vow” of defiance. For there to be a parallel with ancient Israel with this harbinger, Cahn says a national leader would have to speak the defiant vow to rebuild in the nation's capital, which he argues that U.S. Senator John Edwards did during a 9/11 memorial on September 11, 2004, when he quoted Isaiah 9:10.[10]
9. The Prophecy: Another parallel with ancient Israel, according to Cahn, is that a national leader must utter the Isaiah 9:10 vow as a prophecy, before such events as the replacing of the tree and the bringing of the cornerstone rock to Ground Zero. Cahn says this occurred one day after the events of 9/11, when America issued its official response to the terrorism attacks. Senator Tom Daschle, who was the Senate Majority Leader at the time and in charge of the official response, spoke before the Congress. At the end of his speech he quoted Isaiah 9:10.
ezekiel
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HeartSearcher, you are let down because you look for things with men some right some close and some wrong. Now ask God thru Christ even in your prayer in the mornings and think about it during the day use the bible as the guide, let God lead you thru it. study each word, If you ask and not give up he will show you 10 fold 
. Blessed are they that call on the lord.
. Blessed are they that call on the lord.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, ATP.
Matthew 24:40-41 are definitely NOT “Rapture passages!” If you see the “Rapture” ANYWHERE in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 & 25; Mark 13; Luke 21), you are READING INTO THE TEXT WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE! That’s eisegesis, my brother! In reading into the Scriptures anything that was not there originally, you are IGNORING the actual meaning of the text, and you are FAILING to use EXEGESIS in understanding the text; that is, letting the Scriptures speak to YOU!
As far as the “Harbingers” of Mr. Cahn are concerned, they’re a real S-T-R-E-T-C-H of the imagination, and have absolutely NO Scriptural authentication for the comparison! That’s the kind of nonsense that only leads to side-lining a person’s understanding of prophecy! ANYONE can come up with such ridiculous comparisons when he puts his mind to it, but what PROOF is there in Scripture that such a comparison even legitimately EXISTS?! People are ALWAYS trying to find the USA in prophecy! It’s as though they DESPERATELY NEED to see some connection in the Scriptures for one’s country!
Also, as I’ve said before, it is WRONG to take a prophecy meant for one thing, especially when already fulfilled, and apply it to some supposed event of the future! That’s “DOUBLE-DIPPING” in prophecy! Remember: the children of Israel were told that they could determine a true prophet from a false prophet in how the prophecy was fulfilled! IF the prophecies all came true, THEN the speaker was a true prophet of YHWH. IF any one of the prophecies made by the speaker did NOT come true, THEN he was to be considered a FALSE prophet and STONED TO DEATH! Therefore, each prophecy MUST have exactly ONE fulfillment, or such a determination could not be made! GOD DOES NOT RE-USE PROPHECIES!
AND, before anyone tries to argue that point with the Law of Double Reference, the Law of Double Reference says that a prophecy may actually be broken down into two (or more) SEPARATE prophecies, say, prophecy A and prophecy B. And, prophecy A might be fulfilled at some time t(1) while prophecy B might be fulfilled some time t(2) later. Neither prophecy A or B is re-used; they are just each completely fulfilled at different times!
I am WELL aware of the difference between the Rapture event and the Second Coming of the Lord, having heard it much of my life! I can tell you this: The “Rapture" is supposed to be the SECRET coming of the Lord while it is the "Second Coming (Proper)" in which “every eye shall see Him!” ... UNLESS, of course, you believe in a POST-tribulation Rapture, like I do! All three of the passages that you quoted from the Gospels, Matthew 24:30; 25:31-33; and Luke 21:27, are NOT talking about the Second Coming as in all three events. They are all talking about the FINAL STAGE, as you would call it, the ACTUAL SECOND COMING when EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM!ATP said:
Matthew 24:40-41 are definitely NOT “Rapture passages!” If you see the “Rapture” ANYWHERE in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 & 25; Mark 13; Luke 21), you are READING INTO THE TEXT WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE! That’s eisegesis, my brother! In reading into the Scriptures anything that was not there originally, you are IGNORING the actual meaning of the text, and you are FAILING to use EXEGESIS in understanding the text; that is, letting the Scriptures speak to YOU!
As far as the “Harbingers” of Mr. Cahn are concerned, they’re a real S-T-R-E-T-C-H of the imagination, and have absolutely NO Scriptural authentication for the comparison! That’s the kind of nonsense that only leads to side-lining a person’s understanding of prophecy! ANYONE can come up with such ridiculous comparisons when he puts his mind to it, but what PROOF is there in Scripture that such a comparison even legitimately EXISTS?! People are ALWAYS trying to find the USA in prophecy! It’s as though they DESPERATELY NEED to see some connection in the Scriptures for one’s country!
Also, as I’ve said before, it is WRONG to take a prophecy meant for one thing, especially when already fulfilled, and apply it to some supposed event of the future! That’s “DOUBLE-DIPPING” in prophecy! Remember: the children of Israel were told that they could determine a true prophet from a false prophet in how the prophecy was fulfilled! IF the prophecies all came true, THEN the speaker was a true prophet of YHWH. IF any one of the prophecies made by the speaker did NOT come true, THEN he was to be considered a FALSE prophet and STONED TO DEATH! Therefore, each prophecy MUST have exactly ONE fulfillment, or such a determination could not be made! GOD DOES NOT RE-USE PROPHECIES!
AND, before anyone tries to argue that point with the Law of Double Reference, the Law of Double Reference says that a prophecy may actually be broken down into two (or more) SEPARATE prophecies, say, prophecy A and prophecy B. And, prophecy A might be fulfilled at some time t(1) while prophecy B might be fulfilled some time t(2) later. Neither prophecy A or B is re-used; they are just each completely fulfilled at different times!
I believe in a PRE-WRATH rapture, because scripture does not speak of a seven year tribulation, it only speaks of a 3.5 year GREAT tribulation.Retrobyter said:
Incorrect brother. Those passages refer to the "Coming of the Son of Man". That term is only in connection to the first resurrection, rapture and God's wrath poured out. These three things do not represent the second coming. The second coming only refers to Jesus returning to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Rev 19:11-16.Retrobyter said:
Well, it seems to me you are not aware, or you wouldn't of taken Matthew 24:30; 25:31-33; and Luke 21:27 out of context.Retrobyter said:
Matt 24:40-41 has rapture written all over it. If you extend beyond these two verses, which you are supposed to do when studying scripture you will see the term "the coming of the Son of Man" and "the thief". These two terms refer specifically to the first resurrection and rapture.Retrobyter said:
Matt 24:36-44 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Wow. Where do I even start. Actually it is very biblical, Isa 9:10 was literally manifested physically using a Gazit Stone, a Sycamore, an Erez Tree and The Utterance in New York City. The proof is in the DVD'S, everything you need to know is there. But based upon your ignorance and lack of caring I highly doubt you will buy it. You can probably watch it for free on youtube, but I doubt you will do that too. You see, in order to learn about something you would have to take the time to read the book or watch the DVD'S. Are you willing to do this?....Retrobyter said:
Book - The Harbinger: by Jonathan Cahn
DVD - The Harbinger Decoded starring Jonathan Cahn
DVD - The Isa 9:10 Judgment: starring Jonathan Cahn
Wake up Retrobyter, and open your eyes. The time is now! America in these videos was casting judgment on themselves! LOL The Utterance of two or three witnesses can be found here...
Tom Daschle - youtube / watch?v=ukYiWd3T9sk
John Edwards - youtube / watch?v=Ts1IOn57a6s
Obama - youtube / watch?v=5HBJ9v5KxPo
Deut 19:15 NIV One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
2 Cor 13:1 NIV This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
- ATP
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