The book we call John

[Bartholomew Jones]

Okie Doke.

Am I wrong?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Am I wrong?

It isn't that you're wrong, rather, it's that I don't want to be part of a thread that isn't kind and loving.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

It isn't that you're wrong, rather, it's that I don't want to be part of a thread that isn't kind and loving.

You're right.

 

[Mosheli]

Apostleship/non-apostleship has nothing to do with it.

From the details in the gospel the disciple that Jesus loved was a disciple and seemingly one of the 12 disciples or apostles. Those at the last supper were the 12, the disciple Jesus loved was close by his side, so surely he was one of the 12. So the disciple that Jesus loved must have been one of the 12. Same with chapter 21.

John and Peter are associated, yes. They were fishing partners. John got Peter admission to the ruler's quarters etc. John isn't named as the one who followed Peter and Jesus at the end. That's the tradition which is the very thing I'm disputing. You keep doing the same thing.

Not at all.
John & Peter are associated in Acts etc.
The disciple & Peter are associated in John including the end chapter.
So therefore it seems fairly likely that the disciple that the lord loved = John.
Thats not tradition, its comparing bible verses. Unless you reject bible parts as tradition.

You're debating. Debating is useless. Goodbye.

Presenting counter evidences is not useless debating.
Some "christian" you are.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

From the details in the gospel the disciple that Jesus loved was a disciple and seemingly one of the 12 disciples or apostles. Those at the last supper were the 12, the disciple Jesus loved was close by his side, so surely he was one of the 12. So the disciple that Jesus loved must have been one of the 12. Same with chapter 21.



Not at all.
John & Peter are associated in Acts etc.
The disciple & Peter are associated in John including the end chapter.
So therefore it seems fairly likely that the disciple that the lord loved = John.
Thats not tradition, its comparing bible verses. Unless you reject bible parts as tradition.



Presenting counter evidences is not useless debating.
Some "christian" you are.

You're right.

 

[Enoch111]

You only accept what's spoon fed to you.

Anyone who knows me and my posts would strongly disagree. But you are still welcome to fantasize.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

But you are still welcome to fantasize.

Self-awareness of Generational Theology is wisdom. For the sake of those with less Enlightenment than what you have been given, I am asking that you not discourage others from such self-examination and testing, through phrases intended to hurt BJ's valuable Heart. For this is a Biblical command and not a suggestion.

If BJ is Truly in a fantasy world, then you (and even myself) are obligated to help him out of it and not set him further into it. Our duty is to pull folks out of the Matrix, and not to push them further into their fairytale. We need to heed the example of Paul as he relates to Timothy as found in 2nd Timothy. Let me briefly explain . . .

Timothy was fearful, as physical death will likely cause us all to feel this way. But have you noticed how Paul had changed in his final letter? He no longer berates as he once did. If anyone deserved a tongue-lashing, it would be Timothy. Why? Because Timothy was so fearful, that the souls within the Ephesus church were abandoned to the two, false, renegade teachers. The implications? These church members would die without the Truth of Christ within them. Is there anything worse? The rape of a child? No, death without Salvation is the worst thing possible to any human, but again . . . how is Paul different, here, in 2nd Timothy? He isn't threatening as he was to the Corinthians and those who lived in Galatia. Instead, Paul instills Expectant Confidence into Timothy, for Paul had finally learned that berating people just wasn't working. This is why we find Paul, all through that amazing letter, building up the emotional stamina of his partner, Timothy. And perhaps this is why all of Asia had abandoned him, for no doubt, he was incredibly aggressive at times.

1 Corinthians 4:21 CSB - "What do you want? Should I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?" - What if Paul had spoken this way to Timothy, thus completely discouraging him? What would have happened to those in Ephesus? In Paul's final letter, we see personal growth, and we all need to follow his example in this way.

Think about it . . . in all of the years that Timothy shared with Paul, there is nothing in his letter that Timothy did not already know or understand. Paul, almost instantly, moved past Timothy's timidity (so as not to focus on that which is negative) and began to take him out of that fear. In other words, Paul has learned to build others up instead of tearing them down . . . and this is because the effect of a broken Heart spills forth onto others, and there is no way around it.

I am encouraging you to be kind and respectful, and even to those who may not be kind or respectful to you. So to place someone's conscience into that of a fairytale, is not only disparaging, but it hurts the Heart to have a Christian brother or sister to say such things. If you were one that lived on the street and in a cardboard box, and you were to say the exact same things, your opinions and words would not hurt even in the least. But you are a Christian brother, and your opinion both matters and hurts when your are intentions are to cause emotional suffering.

I have prayed over this message to you, and my prayer is that you would feel the Grace and Understanding that has been given to me, so that I can give it to you. I hope that you can sense a Gentle and Kind Heart; a Heart that cares as much for you as it does for Bartholomew. For you are just as valuable and important [to me] as is he. Quite frankly, this world needs both of you, for the Truth rests within us as Christians, and it is our duty to Love one another so that we might be an example to the worldly . . . world. For if we cannot Love each other, how can we love those that are not a part of the Flock? And if we cannot Love each other, why would anyone, whose father is the Devil, ever want to be a part of our fighting family? I know that I wouldn't. But . . . if I found a Spiritual Family that loved and supported each other, particularly when things are difficult, well . . . that is exactly the kind of Family that I choose to belong and enjoy.

Please forgive me if I have offended you, for that is not my intention.

Respectfully . . . 2TG.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

Self-awareness of Generational Theology is wisdom. For the sake of those with less Enlightenment than what you have been given, I am asking that you not discourage others from such self-examination and testing, through phrases intended to hurt BJ's valuable Heart. For this is a Biblical command and not a suggestion.

If BJ is Truly in a fantasy world, then you (and even myself) are obligated to help him out of it and not set him further into it. Our duty is to pull folks out of the Matrix, and not to push them further into their fairytale. We need to heed the example of Paul as he relates to Timothy as found in 2nd Timothy. Let me briefly explain . . .

Timothy was fearful, as physical death will likely cause us all to feel this way. But have you noticed how Paul had changed in his final letter? He no longer berates as he once did. If anyone deserved a tongue-lashing, it would be Timothy. Why? Because Timothy was so fearful, that the souls within the Ephesus church were abandoned to the two, false, renegade teachers. The implications? These church members would die without the Truth of Christ within them. Is there anything worse? The rape of a child? No, death without Salvation is the worst thing possible to any human, but again . . . how is Paul different, here, in 2nd Timothy? He isn't threatening as he was to the Corinthians and those who lived in Galatia. Instead, Paul instills Expectant Confidence into Timothy, for Paul had finally learned that berating people just wasn't working. This is why we find Paul, all through that amazing letter, building up the emotional stamina of his partner, Timothy. And perhaps this is why all of Asia had abandoned him, for no doubt, he was incredibly aggressive at times.

1 Corinthians 4:21 CSB - "What do you want? Should I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?" - What if Paul had spoken this way to Timothy, thus completely discouraging him? What would have happened to those in Ephesus? In Paul's final letter, we see personal growth, and we all need to follow his example in this way.

Think about it . . . in all of the years that Timothy shared with Paul, there is nothing in his letter that Timothy did not already know or understand. Paul, almost instantly, moved past Timothy's timidity (so as not to focus on that which is negative) and began to take him out of that fear. In other words, Paul has learned to build others up instead of tearing them down . . . and this is because the effect of a broken Heart spills forth onto others, and there is no way around it.

I am encouraging you to be kind and respectful, and even to those who may not be kind or respectful to you. So to place someone's conscience into that of a fairytale, is not only disparaging, but it hurts the Heart to have a Christian brother or sister to say such things. If you were one that lived on the street and in a cardboard box, and you were to say the exact same things, your opinions and words would not hurt even in the least. But you are a Christian brother, and your opinion both matters and hurts when your are intentions are to cause emotional suffering.

I have prayed over this message to you, and my prayer is that you would feel the Grace and Understanding that has been given to me, so that I can give it to you. I hope that you can sense a Gentle and Kind Heart; a Heart that cares as much for you as it does for Bartholomew. For you are just as valuable and important [to me] as is he. Quite frankly, this world needs both of you, for the Truth rests within us as Christians, and it is our duty to Love one another so that we might be an example to the worldly . . . world. For if we cannot Love each other, how can we love those that are not a part of the Flock? And if we cannot Love each other, why would anyone, whose father is the Devil, ever want to be a part of our fighting family? I know that I wouldn't. But . . . if I found a Spiritual Family that loved and supported each other, particularly when things are difficult, well . . . that is exactly the kind of Family that I choose to belong and enjoy.

Please forgive me if I have offended you, for that is not my intention.

Respectfully . . . 2TG.

Thank you. You have great courage.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

I'm sorry folks. My intention was never to turn sour. I believe my arguments are true. I don't believe that your allegations are true. But I bear the greater offense for not being kind.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm sorry folks. My intention was never to turn sour. I believe my arguments are true. I don't believe that your allegations are true. But I bear the greater offense for not being kind.

You know . . . I don't admire people who seem to be perfect. Instead, I admire people who have the strength to stand and face their mistakes when they have failed. This . . . this is what it is to be strong. Everyone makes mistakes, but very few will address and correct them.

In my time at forums, I have never seen anyone stand tall to their mistakes as you have, sir.

Acts 23:2-5 NIV - "At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3 Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" 4 Those who were standing near Paul said, "How dare you insult God's high priest!" 5 Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people."

You are a great example to follow, Bartholomew. Thank you for this Gift that you have given to us this day.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

From the details in the gospel the disciple that Jesus loved was a disciple and seemingly one of the 12 disciples or apostles. Those at the last supper were the 12, the disciple Jesus loved was close by his side, so surely he was one of the 12. So the disciple that Jesus loved must have been one of the 12. Same with chapter 21.

Certain of the names change in various places when the 12 are listed. We assume, again by tradition, that Thaddeus is the same person as Judas son of James. But the text itself would lead me to believe rather that the 12 offices weren't guaranteed permanent to their holders. Scripture tells us Jesus trusted no man.

In addition, there appears to be a reason John excludes a list of the twelve. His gospel was written much later than the release of Marks gospel. Earlier than Luke's gospel (I believe). Yet he excludes this list. He is obviously hinting something to the reader when he says near the end, of himself, "and we know that his testimony is true."

Not at all.
John & Peter are associated in Acts etc.
The disciple & Peter are associated in John including the end chapter.
So therefore it seems fairly likely that the disciple that the lord loved = John.
Thats not tradition, its comparing bible verses. Unless you reject bible parts as tradition.

Of course Peter and John are in close association. I'm not disputing that. They were in close association before Christ began his ministry. They were fishing partners, which supports my view, not yours. Peter depended on John to get up and close with ecclesiastic leadership. He was also very competitive against the disciple whom Jesus loved as we see at the end of John, which suggests my view not yours.

Presenting counter evidences is not useless debating.
Some "christian" you are.

I've apologized for my shortness. And I'm done doing that.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

You know . . . I don't admire people who seem to be perfect. Instead, I admire people who have the strength to stand and face their mistakes when they have failed. This . . . this is what it is to be strong. Everyone makes mistakes, but very few will address and correct them.

In my time at forums, I have never seen anyone stand tall to their mistakes as you have, sir.

Acts 23:2-5 NIV - "At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3 Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" 4 Those who were standing near Paul said, "How dare you insult God's high priest!" 5 Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people."

You are a great example to follow, Bartholomew. Thank you for this Gift that you have given to us this day.

You have great insight. Thank you.

 

[marks]

Okay. Rewind. Delete. You should establish what you say or don't say it. Arent you accepting what you say solely on the basis that it's been accepted traditionally? Maybe I'm wrong. The Berean approach in my view has more merit.

I'm talking about your "spoon fed" comment.

There's enough rudeness already!

Much love!

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

You only accept what's spoon fed to you.

What I should have said is this. You say it's far fetched because you agree with the convention, because it is the convention.

Regardless, I apologize. Still I don't want to talk to you if you're just here to DEBATE and not listen. So far you've proven conclusively to me, you're not interested in listening to what I'm trying to say.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

Nice! I love this kind of stuff. More, please! ;)

Tomorrow, Lord willing, let's look more closely at the three Mary's of the book we call John.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

I'm talking about your "spoon fed" comment.

There's enough rudeness already!

Much love!

See second above this one.

 

[marks]

What I should have said is this. You say it's far fetched because you agree with the convention, because it is the convention.

Regardless, I apologize. Still I don't want to talk to you if you're just here to DEBATE and not listen. So far you've proven conclusively to me, you're not interested in listening to what I'm trying to say.

I've read what you've said, it's a different point of view than most, and I don't happen to agree myself, but I'm hear to share different points of view.

Just the same, your words reveal yourself. I value politeness, courtesy, and respect.

Much love!

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

Also, it's interesting that of the first two disciples called from Johns flock to Jesus', one is unnamed. See John 1:35-40. The more discussion we have, the more evident it is to me that the writer of what we call John is strongly hinting something to the diligent, investigative reader.

 

[Ziggy]

Jhn 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Jhn 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

which supper are we talking about?
HUGS

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

I've read what you've said, it's a different point of view than most, and I don't happen to agree myself, but I'm hear to share different points of view.

Just the same, your words reveal yourself. I value politeness, courtesy, and respect.

Much love!

Polite is the root for politic. Courtesy, yes, I prize. Respect, first show me an honorable service because I won't respect a mere person. If I ever dis-respect you it's because I detected disrespect. I will often nevertheless apologize out of respect to the Lord.