has anyone any idea how many or what percentage or proportion are on the broad road - so what are your chances - winc
The Broad Road ?
- Thread starter winc
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Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
If Luke 13:22-24, Mtt 7:13-14, and Mtt 22:14 are any indication; it's the
majority and the numbers are impressive.
According to the US Census Bureau: as of Aug 23, 2012 @ 09:35 pm New
York time, the resident population in the United States was approximately
314,222,188 with a death rate of approximately one every 14 seconds;
which translates to an average of 6,171 American deaths of all ages, races,
and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.
According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths
are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 4,486 of
the current daily death rate of 6,171 per 24 hours are adults. Giving the
"many" the benefit of the doubt by setting their maximum percentage at
51% would indicate a minimum of 2,288 American adults transferring to
perdition every day: which translates to roughly 95 per hour.
That's a very conservative estimate as the Lord didn't really specify exact
percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think:
if the traditional hell is a real place; then by the time CBS completes its half
hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 47 Americans have
made the transition from here to there.
Using the ratio of 2,288 condemned souls per 314,222,188 population:
computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently
estimated global population of 7,034,743,963 people, would suggest
something like 51,223 new arrivals in hell every 24 hours; which translates
to 2,134 souls every sixty minutes on the clock. By the time Paul McCartney
wrapped the four-hour 2012 Olympic ceremony; something like 8,536 souls
wrapped their life's journey to the Bible's hell.
That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity
in roughly 24 hours and 16 minutes. In other words: if the world's
condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning,
then by 06:16 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.
If those 24-hour numbers are fair; they suggest that 6,710,213 new arrivals
will be checked into hell's penal colony by the time New Year's Day 2013
rolls around 131 days from today.
If any of the above is true, and if the Lord is a credible witness; then it's
apparent that souls never stop cascading into the dungeons of hell in an
endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers impaled
on meat hooks passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants
on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger
King, In-n-Out Burger, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and
to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson
vends its meats.
Burn Camino
/
If Luke 13:22-24, Mtt 7:13-14, and Mtt 22:14 are any indication; it's the
majority and the numbers are impressive.
According to the US Census Bureau: as of Aug 23, 2012 @ 09:35 pm New
York time, the resident population in the United States was approximately
314,222,188 with a death rate of approximately one every 14 seconds;
which translates to an average of 6,171 American deaths of all ages, races,
and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.
According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths
are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 4,486 of
the current daily death rate of 6,171 per 24 hours are adults. Giving the
"many" the benefit of the doubt by setting their maximum percentage at
51% would indicate a minimum of 2,288 American adults transferring to
perdition every day: which translates to roughly 95 per hour.
That's a very conservative estimate as the Lord didn't really specify exact
percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think:
if the traditional hell is a real place; then by the time CBS completes its half
hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 47 Americans have
made the transition from here to there.
Using the ratio of 2,288 condemned souls per 314,222,188 population:
computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently
estimated global population of 7,034,743,963 people, would suggest
something like 51,223 new arrivals in hell every 24 hours; which translates
to 2,134 souls every sixty minutes on the clock. By the time Paul McCartney
wrapped the four-hour 2012 Olympic ceremony; something like 8,536 souls
wrapped their life's journey to the Bible's hell.
That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity
in roughly 24 hours and 16 minutes. In other words: if the world's
condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning,
then by 06:16 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.
If those 24-hour numbers are fair; they suggest that 6,710,213 new arrivals
will be checked into hell's penal colony by the time New Year's Day 2013
rolls around 131 days from today.
If any of the above is true, and if the Lord is a credible witness; then it's
apparent that souls never stop cascading into the dungeons of hell in an
endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers impaled
on meat hooks passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants
on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger
King, In-n-Out Burger, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and
to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson
vends its meats.
Burn Camino
/
Dear Webers_home,
I must take exception to your last paragraph in your comments. Yes, the number of persons who die without Christ is large - much larger than the churches realize. But when a person dies, they do not go to a place called hell. They are simply dead waiting upon the resurrection like everyone else who has died, including those in the faith. When Chist comes back, He comes back to resurrect the DEAD. Here is what it is like to be dead according to scripture:
Ecc 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither, have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
When a person dies, their spirit returns to God and their body returns to dust. When Christ comes back, He will furnish a new body for our spirit and the soul becomes alive again. Without a body and a spirt, our soul is dead. Without the work of Christ on the cross, we would all remain dead forever. Death is the penalty of sin, not hell.
As for them going to hell someday, that is not true either. That doctrine is completely unscriptural. The Lake of Fire is merely a symbol, it is not literal fire nor is it a literal lake. What the symbol represents is a confined place where lost person go for judgment. However, contrary to Christian teaching, judgment in the "Lake of Fire" is not eternal. It is only for an age. Once a person's judgment is complete, it will have produced righteousness in that individual. God's judgment is not man's judgment. God's judgment has a redeeming purpose and His word says that all mankind will be redeemed.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Scripture is full of statements regarding the salvation of all mankind and a discussion of those scriptures can prove to be quite lengthy. Here is a simple scripture that shows that Christ will in fact save all mankind:
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
A belief in the Christian hell doctrine is in direct conflict with this verse, and with many other verses, too. If you have never studied the scriptural facts concerning salvation, it may be well worth your time to do so.
Joe
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Hell's opponents commonly quote the book of Ecclesiastes; which is a fatal
error because proof texts related to the afterlife drawn from the book of
Ecclesiastes are inadmissible; and the reason is very simple. Ecclesiastes
isn't a book of revelation, but rather, a book of philosophy; and though a
holy man wrote Ecclesiastes, and was no doubt inspired to do so; he didn't
record his observations from the perspective of an enlightened man who's
privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence; but rather, he
recorded his observations from the perspective of a man under the sun
whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see going on
around him in the physical universe rather than what he cannot see going on
around him in the non-physical sphere: and that's why Bible students find so
much material in Ecclesiastes contrary to the doctrines of traditional
Christianity.
The man under the sun typically finds the book of Ecclesiastes to be spot-on
in agreement with his own philosophy of life; and no mystery there since
Ecclesiastes is primarily an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth
rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven.
Another thing to keep in mind when studying Ecclesiastes is that just
because people's statements are recorded in a sacred text does not make
their statements eo ipso true; for example Eve’s response to the Serpent.
†. Gen 3:1-3 . . And he said to the woman: Indeed, has God said you shall
not eat from any tree of the garden? And the woman said to the serpent:
From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of
the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said you shall not eat
from it or touch it, lest you die.
Was Eve telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth? No. God forbad
them to eat the fruit, yes, but He didn’t forbid them to touch it. (cf. Gen
2:16-17)
The Serpent’s response was untrue too.
†. Gen 3:4 . . And the serpent said to the woman: You shall not surely die.
Did the woman die? Yes; because in Adam: all die. Eve wasn't created from
the dust as was Adam, but was manufactured from already-existing human
tissue amputated from Adam's body; so she was just as much Adam as
Adam. In point of fact, in a manner of speaking, she was his first child.
The conversation between Eve and the Serpent was no doubt recorded by
inspiration; but there are untruths in their statements. Koheleth's worldly
philosophy of life is a lot like that; in other words: Ecclesiastes isn't
necessarily totally wrong just because it's a humanistic point of view, nor is
it necessarily totally correct just because it contains a kernel of truth. No,
the danger is that Koheleth's philosophy, like most all philosophy, contains
just enough truth to make it misleading. Caveat Lector.
†. Col 2:8 . . Beware lest anyone seduce you through philosophy
Buen Camino
/
Hell's opponents commonly quote the book of Ecclesiastes; which is a fatal
error because proof texts related to the afterlife drawn from the book of
Ecclesiastes are inadmissible; and the reason is very simple. Ecclesiastes
isn't a book of revelation, but rather, a book of philosophy; and though a
holy man wrote Ecclesiastes, and was no doubt inspired to do so; he didn't
record his observations from the perspective of an enlightened man who's
privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence; but rather, he
recorded his observations from the perspective of a man under the sun
whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see going on
around him in the physical universe rather than what he cannot see going on
around him in the non-physical sphere: and that's why Bible students find so
much material in Ecclesiastes contrary to the doctrines of traditional
Christianity.
The man under the sun typically finds the book of Ecclesiastes to be spot-on
in agreement with his own philosophy of life; and no mystery there since
Ecclesiastes is primarily an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth
rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven.
Another thing to keep in mind when studying Ecclesiastes is that just
because people's statements are recorded in a sacred text does not make
their statements eo ipso true; for example Eve’s response to the Serpent.
†. Gen 3:1-3 . . And he said to the woman: Indeed, has God said you shall
not eat from any tree of the garden? And the woman said to the serpent:
From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of
the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said you shall not eat
from it or touch it, lest you die.
Was Eve telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth? No. God forbad
them to eat the fruit, yes, but He didn’t forbid them to touch it. (cf. Gen
2:16-17)
The Serpent’s response was untrue too.
†. Gen 3:4 . . And the serpent said to the woman: You shall not surely die.
Did the woman die? Yes; because in Adam: all die. Eve wasn't created from
the dust as was Adam, but was manufactured from already-existing human
tissue amputated from Adam's body; so she was just as much Adam as
Adam. In point of fact, in a manner of speaking, she was his first child.
The conversation between Eve and the Serpent was no doubt recorded by
inspiration; but there are untruths in their statements. Koheleth's worldly
philosophy of life is a lot like that; in other words: Ecclesiastes isn't
necessarily totally wrong just because it's a humanistic point of view, nor is
it necessarily totally correct just because it contains a kernel of truth. No,
the danger is that Koheleth's philosophy, like most all philosophy, contains
just enough truth to make it misleading. Caveat Lector.
†. Col 2:8 . . Beware lest anyone seduce you through philosophy
Buen Camino
/
Dear webers_home,
There are numerous verses of scripture that support Christ's success in saving the world. I do not share your view of Ecclesiastes. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness (2Tim 3:16). Either Ecclesiastes is scripture or it's not. I believe it is.
Joe
Dear winc,
I answered the question in my 2nd sentence as well as it can be answered: "Yes, the number of persons who die without Christ is large - much larger than the churches realize". Exact numbers are impossible. We don't even know how many people have lived since Adam. I continued on to explain my answer as did webers_home. Evidently, you have no problem with his expounding. My difference of belief must be what caused your complaint.
Joe
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
No surprise there. Bible verses can be interpreted to support just about any
theory. I've even seen people support Buddhism with the Bible.
I too believe Ecclesiastes is scripture, and I too believe it is inspired, and I
also believe it is useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for
instruction in righteousness-- but only by the blessed souls whom Heb 5:14
says have their senses trained to discern between good and evil. Caveat Lector.
Buen Camino
/
No surprise there. Bible verses can be interpreted to support just about any
theory. I've even seen people support Buddhism with the Bible.
I too believe Ecclesiastes is scripture, and I too believe it is inspired, and I
also believe it is useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for
instruction in righteousness-- but only by the blessed souls whom Heb 5:14
says have their senses trained to discern between good and evil. Caveat Lector.
Buen Camino
/
The thought occurred to me as I was responding to you in the Satan thread that you were a Universalist or at least believed in Universalism.
Thank you for confirming that you do.
Axehead
I know practically nothing about "universalism". My understanding of Christ and His mission to save the world comes strictly from scritpture. I do not associate with any denomination or group that calls itself a "church". I find that ALL groups or organizations that call themself a "church" are completely harlot and have no clue as to what scripture actually says. When I discuss scripture with people and they find that they have no scriptural response against my beliefs, they usually restort to trying to "classify" me into some group or organization. I see that you have done the same.
Joe
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
(sigh) Just what Christianity needs: another Joseph Smith to get it back on track with the
original faith of our fathers. And how about the likes of Jim Jones and David Koresh? Do
these armchair prophets never cease?!
BTW: you should consider looking into Christian Universalism. Now there's a movement
wherein you're sure to find a lot in common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism
Buen Camino
/
(sigh) Just what Christianity needs: another Joseph Smith to get it back on track with the
original faith of our fathers. And how about the likes of Jim Jones and David Koresh? Do
these armchair prophets never cease?!
BTW: you should consider looking into Christian Universalism. Now there's a movement
wherein you're sure to find a lot in common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism
Buen Camino
/
justaname
Disciple of Jesus Christ
- Mar 14, 2011
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Joe,
2 Cor 5:8
John 12:26
Phil 1:23
We have confidence that when we fall into that great slumber we will be present with Christ.
To the OP.....
I have no idea sorry, hats off to Webers if that was all calculated alone though. I think those estimates are quite conservative though.
2 Cor 5:8
John 12:26
Phil 1:23
We have confidence that when we fall into that great slumber we will be present with Christ.
To the OP.....
I have no idea sorry, hats off to Webers if that was all calculated alone though. I think those estimates are quite conservative though.
Dear Webers_home,
You have no idea what you are saying. I have no "church' nor am I looking for a church. I have no followers nor am I looking for any. Those desires come from the carnal mind of man. Christ has called me out of the harlot church - I have no desire to go back. I am merely a voice calling into the wilderness (harlot church) to tell whoever can hear, to come out of the harlot and start learning about the true Savior of the World, Jesus Christ. He is loving, merciful and patient. Webers_home, when it is your turn to come out of the harlot church, He will come to you and remove the deception that we have all experienced. Unfortunately, Christ will only choose a "few" to know Him in this current age. All others will come to know Him after their judgment is complete in the final age.
Why is it so appalling to mainstream Christians that Christ is ACTUALLY the Savior of the world? Does it make you feel less special since Christ's love will eventually encompass everyone? You should be delighted in hearing the Good News of the Gospel. Christ is the one who does the saving and we ALL are in need of saving. He won't fail to save anyone. Love never fails and Christ is not willing that any of His creation be lost.
Why do you want to compare me with these fallen from favor religious figures? Is that the only way you can say I am wrong. Why not trying a little scripture to say it? I know the reason why you don't and that's because there is no scripture that refutes me. Christ came to save the world and that is what scripture says He will do. Why do you not believe these two verses?
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Do the idols in your heart (false doctrines) not allow you to accept these scriptures as truth? Even my 11 year old year can understand and believe them, but he hasn't been indoctrinated by the harlot church either. It is a hard thing to admit that you have been deceived by Satan. I admit that I was deceived by him the first 44 years of my life. We all are when we first try to follow Christ. Satan steps in and masquerades as Christ. Satan is a great deceiver. Only God's Elect have the power to come out from his deception. And that power to come out is supplied to us by Christ when He comes to us a second time and heals our spiritual vision. Without Christ's grace, we would all die in the harlot church. But for the Elect's sake, their days in the harlot church are shortened.
Joe
Dear justaname,
You are misunderstanding those scriptures you quoted. When a Christian dies or anyone else for that matter, we are dead and stay dead until the resurrection of the DEAD. When we die our spirit returns to God and our body returns to dust. Without the new spiritual body that Christ is preparing for each of us and without Christ resurrecting us into it, we are DEAD. With your beliefs there doesn't seem to be any need to be resurrected? For what purpose do you believe Paul taught about the resurrection of the dead (1Cor ch. 15) if it is not necessary inorder for us to live again? You doctrine makes no sense under the light of scripture.
Joe
When you fall asleep and wake up hours later you have no awareness of the time that has past,all you know is the last thing you saw or heard before falling alseep and the first thing you see and hear when you wake up....its possible that could be what death is like...life is being aware of being alive...no awareness no life because life is in fact spiritual first and physical second.
Excuse me Joe. You hold to a view of Universalism that is not supported by Scripture or the Nature and Character of God. You are speaking evil of the truth. It does not matter whether you are part of a religious organization or outside of them. I have found that being outside of religious organizations does not give any one a "corner on the market" of truth.
2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
What did the Lord "buy" us from? If everyone is saved, why be concerned about holiness and righteousness. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we are saved and live in Heaven.
For those that do not want God in this life, they would go to hell because God respects their freedom of choice to not want anything to do with Him. They did not want this God, see no purpose for this God, and if they never had to ever hear anything more about Him again it would be to their great pleasure. They believe knowledge of God is totally unnecessary and probably a waste of intellect.
So, Hell is the place where God is NOT communicating, His presence is never felt, His provisions are never manifest.
Here, now, they are lord of their own life (Genesis 3:5). Disregarding His Word and not accepting His Lordship they get to decide (sometimes along with other like-minded peoples) what is good or evil and see these as relative terms based on culture and consensus.
They see reality as a place where God is not and they believe they will like that reality. They do not see or accept a providing God and do not want what He would provide since they believe they do not need it (all they need or can have is here without a God). They think knowledge of God is imaginative at best and delusional at worst. So for them personally they reject knowledge of God and knowing God.
So if there is this God when they die they will go to the place their heart believes in and desires. There will not be God for them there and neither will there be anything He would have provided and they will finally and totally be lord of their own life. If they want light? Then will have to create it! If they want a cool breeze to comfort amidst the fires of chaos? Then they will have to make it so! They want fellowship with others? Fine no problem you create those to fellowship with. We call this condition hell though you may call it paradise…
The only problem is they do not have the power to, neither can you, create anything so they will be alone forever in darkness and fiery torment because that is a reality without God which is what they have placed their faith in.
Now if there is no God, then it will not matter, except that while here we got to experience a dimension of hope, joy, and peace they never got to know. So yes they are going to hell if our God is God but it will not be because He has not tried (albeit not according to their terms…but that is because they are not His lord).
[font=Trebuchet MS'](Isa. 59:2), “but your iniquities have[/font]separated you from your God[font=Trebuchet MS']; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.”[/font]
"And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:3-4)
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)
[font=Trebuchet MS']Hell is separation from the [/font]comfortable presence[font=Trebuchet MS'] of God.[/font]
Axehead
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Maybe in your own mind you think I know not what I say; but from my
perspective; what I said about you is spot-on.
Of course you're a voice calling in the wilderness; that's what all the Joseph
Smiths of the world believe about themselves. Even Muhammad believed himself
a rectifier of Christianity's errors.
Is it impossible that it is you misunderstanding those scriptures instead of
justaname? Do you sincerely believe yourself infallible and speaking for God
ex cathedra? I would advise you to be just a little more circumspect with
your choice of words lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat
them.
†. Mtt 12:36-37 . . I tell you that men will have to give account on the day
of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words
you will be innocent; and by your words you will be condemned.
Buen Camino
/
Maybe in your own mind you think I know not what I say; but from my
perspective; what I said about you is spot-on.
Of course you're a voice calling in the wilderness; that's what all the Joseph
Smiths of the world believe about themselves. Even Muhammad believed himself
a rectifier of Christianity's errors.
Is it impossible that it is you misunderstanding those scriptures instead of
justaname? Do you sincerely believe yourself infallible and speaking for God
ex cathedra? I would advise you to be just a little more circumspect with
your choice of words lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat
them.
†. Mtt 12:36-37 . . I tell you that men will have to give account on the day
of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words
you will be innocent; and by your words you will be condemned.
Buen Camino
/
Dear Strat,
If I am understanding you right, you have the correct understanding of death. When a person dies, they have no consciousness and no knowledge of time or anything for that matter. So when Paul says that He would prefer to die and be with the Lord, Paul knows that without consciousness (the state of death), the long period of his slumber will seem like an instant to Him. Think of it this way, from the moment of the creation (probably billions of years), a person had no knowledge of all that time they were waiting to be born. All we have knowledge of is the period of time while we are alive.
Scripture is clear that after we die, there is no life until Christ's resurrects us. Paul is still dead and waiting for his resurrection, though to him, he has no knowledge of just how long that wait will have been. When Paul is resurrected in the future, to him it will feel like moments. At some point in the future, Jesus will come again to resurrect the DEAD, not the living as most of the mainstream churches teach. BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL. Without the new body that Christ will provide and His resurrection, we are dead and have no knowledge of our own state of death. When we awake from death, it will only seem like moments of time has past when in fact it may have been more than two thousand years.
It seems that every furneral I have ever been to, the funeral preacher will make the comment that goes something like this: "I know ****** is looking down from heaven right now from the arms of Jesus....".
That comment is simply not scriptural.
Joe
Dear Axehead,
You certainly know the mainstream teaching on this subject but you have ZERO scriptural support.
You said:
Excuse me Joe. You hold to a view of Universalism that is not supported by Scripture or the Nature and Character of God. You are speaking evil of the truth. It does not matter whether you are part of a religious organization or outside of them. I have found that being outside of religious organizations does not give any one a "corner on the market" of truth.
2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
So you believe the nature and character of God desires to send most of His children to a place you call “hell”???
The hell doctrine is the summit of speaking evil of the way of truth. Not only does it make Christ out to be a huge failure in saving the world, it also makes Him out to be some kind of a monster who torments in fire most of mankind. It is no wonder most of this world rejects the Christ that you preach. And to make it even worse, you teach that “hell” is for no redeeming purpose and will last forever.
Don’t you know that the penalty of sin is death? So why isn’t that good enough for you and the “church”?
You said:
What did the Lord "buy" us from? If everyone is saved, why be concerned about holiness and righteousness. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we are saved and live in Heaven.
I have heard that comment dozens and dozens of times and it only shows that you follow Christ out of your fear of going to your fabled hell. Once a person is converted, they will follow Christ because they love Him and truly desire to be like Him. They will not desire to “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we are saved and live in heaven”. A converted person has the law written in their hearts. Their desires are changed and they love righteousness and they derive no pleasure from evil. A converted person would have NEVER made that comment. It is very telling.
It seems that you don’t even understand what salvation is. Salvation, simply put, is becoming like Jesus. We are changed on the inside and our carnal ways are replaced by the way of God. Heaven is not a location that a “saved” person gets to go to when they die. Heaven is the change that God causes on the inside of us which makes us into His image. When Christ said that He will prepare a “mansion” for us, He was referring to a new glorious spiritual body, one which would reflect the Kingdom of Heaven residing in us. Heaven is a spiritual term, not a carnal term which represents a location.
You said:
For those that do not want God in this life, they would go to hell because God respects their freedom of choice to not want anything to do with Him. They did not want this God, see no purpose for this God, and if they never had to ever hear anything more about Him again it would be to their great pleasure. They believe knowledge of God is totally unnecessary and probably a waste of intellect.
God DOES NOT respect their “freedom of choice”. I can’t say that strong enough. Scripture makes it very clear that no man can come to Christ unless the Father drags him there against his will. The carnal mind of man hates God and unless God drags us to Him, we would NEVER come to Him from our own supposed “free will”. Do you not know these scriptures?:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men unto me.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Please read these verses carefully. They absolutely contradict your statements above. God has chosen a time to draw all men to Him. Most will not be drawn to Christ in this age but they will be drawn to Him at some point because the Word says they will be drawn. Where is your faith to believe Christ’s statement?
Do you not know that before we even repent, God calls us to Him and He gives us “gifts” (faith and a desire to come to Him) because of His grace that abounds to us?:
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Look at the pattern of Paul’s conversion; did Paul repent first or did Christ call to him first? Since Paul’s conversion is the pattern of all conversions, then Christ must first come to each of us and call us to Him and He does that at the time of HIS choosing. We do not get to choose because our carnal mind hates God and if it weren’t for God’s grace (the gift of Him calling us), we would never come to Christ or find the knowledge of God. I’ll say it again, Christ MUST call us to Him, we do NOT have the power to choose from our own will to come to Him. Everyone who follows Christ was “called” by Christ first.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are CALLED, and chosen, and faithful.
Why don’t you believe it?
You said:
So, Hell is the place where God is NOT communicating, His presence is never felt, His provisions are never manifest.
Scripturally speaking, the word that is translated “hell” is speaking of the “unseen place” or the “grave”. In other words, it is the state of death, not some firey place of torment. We have no consciousness when we are dead. So from the scriptural perspective, your statement is correct.
You said:
Here, now, they are lord of their own life (Genesis 3:5). Disregarding His Word and not accepting His Lordship they get to decide (sometimes along with other like-minded peoples) what is good or evil and see these as relative terms based on culture and consensus.
Genesis 3:5 does not say that they are the “lord of their own life” nor does it even infer it. Here are the scriptures that speak concerning your comment:
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
How can a man understand his own way? We can’t because we are not “lord over our own life” as you believe. God even hides this fact from us but He does reveal it to His Elect:
Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.
God is in complete control of our lives and because He is, He has the power to call us to Christ and repent. Scripture declares it to be so. Where is your faith to believe it?
You said:
They see reality as a place where God is not and they believe they will like that reality. They do not see or accept a providing God and do not want what He would provide since they believe they do not need it (all they need or can have is here without a God). They think knowledge of God is imaginative at best and delusional at worst. So for them personally they reject knowledge of God and knowing God.
So if there is this God when they die they will go to the place their heart believes in and desires. There will not be God for them there and neither will there be anything He would have provided and they will finally and totally be lord of their own life. If they want light? Then will have to create it! If they want a cool breeze to comfort amidst the fires of chaos? Then they will have to make it so! They want fellowship with others? Fine no problem you create those to fellowship with. We call this condition hell though you may call it paradise…
The only problem is they do not have the power to, neither can you, create anything so they will be alone forever in darkness and fiery torment because that is a reality without God which is what they have placed their faith in.
Now if there is no God, then it will not matter, except that while here we got to experience a dimension of hope, joy, and peace they never got to know. So yes they are going to hell if our God is God but it will not be because He has not tried (albeit not according to their terms…but that is because they are not His lord).
When Christ decides it is time for any unbeliever to come to Him, they will come. They have no choice in the matter. Scripture declares it, you merely need to believe it.
You said:
Hell is separation from the comfortable presence of God.
Nonsense! Hell is the unseen place of the grave, nothing more. You would do well to believe the scriptures I posted. Of course, if you do, your world will be turned upside down and your “church” would eventually cast you out as they do to all of God’s Elect.
Sincerely,
Joe
Dear Webers_home,
I am waiting for your scriptures - not comments on your beliefs nor for your attempts to classify me in with the likes of Joseph Smith or Jim Jones. If you have no scriptures that support your beliefs, then why do you have those beliefs? Could it be because other men have told you what to believe? You would do well to trust in the Word of God over all things and to trust NOT in the carnal mind of man.
Joe
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Not many people choose to live selflessly, but some do. There is no way to know the numbers involved - if you are looking for selfless people, you see them everywhere and the same is true if you look for selfish people.
Salvation is not a commodity - it is a condition of the heart and mind, which sets us free and transforms us into citizens of Heaven.
Salvation is not a commodity - it is a condition of the heart and mind, which sets us free and transforms us into citizens of Heaven.
Prentis
New Member
Well said. It is not for us to judge, those who are selfless and give, as God is also... Those will be saved. God is pleased with them.
Christendom treats salvation as a commodity, and then goes 'I have it, you don't'. But no one can one. Salvation is the Lord's! He decides. :)
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