Jesus and Mary Herself explicitly explain why God preserved Her from inheriting the stain of original sin, as well as why She didn't commit sins. However, again, their words (spoken in modern day) are found in a book that isn't in one of the books that make up the Bible, and thus you automatically reject it. You, like most Protestants, demand others to provide scriptural verses that explicitly appear in the Bible for what they believe in order to be true, but you don't abide by that standard yourself. If you did, then you wouldn't be stating as a fact that Mary of Joseph inherited the stain of original sin and committed sins, because nowhere in Scripture does it say "only Jesus was without sin," nor that "only Jesus never committed sins." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.
The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.
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Jesus and Mary Herself explicitly explain why God preserved Her from inheriting the stain of original sin, as well as why She didn't commit sins. However, again, their words (spoken in modern day) are found in a book that isn't in one of the books that make up the Bible, and thus you automatically reject it. You, like most Protestants, demand others to provide scriptural verses that explicitly appear in the Bible for what they believe in order to be true, but you don't abide by that standard yourself. If you did, then you wouldn't be stating as a fact that Mary of Joseph inherited the stain of original sin and committed sins, because nowhere in Scripture does it say "only Jesus was without sin," nor that "only Jesus never committed sins." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.
Mary wasn't begotten of God because She's not God Incarnate like Jesus.
Do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of the first parents, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary not committing sins, and thus be a worthy dwelling place and Mother for God Incarnate?
It's unfortunate that want to give up on our discussion just because I pointed out that none of the scriptural verses you cited say that "only Jesus was without sin," nor that "only Jesus never committed sins."
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Well praise God I don't need an intercessor as because I am born again and am in Christ Jesus I have direct access to the Father. Also the bible calls me part of a holy nation and a Royal priesthood. Shame she doesn't know that. Her time would be better spent looking into that promise. Also her/his profile doesn't specify male or female.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
They can't actually show us anything from the bible - which is the only scripture that means anything to most of us. None of the Mary followers can quote chapter and verse to prove their case. They have been taught by their leaders who have sadly led them astray and are not open to any other view of the matter. Even though Jesus was and still is the ONLY begotten Son of God and so is the ONLY one ever to have been born without the stain of sin that all the rest of us - including the lovely Mary - are born with. And they don't understand that it isn't about not committing sin, it is deeper than that.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jesus CAME forth out from God and was SENT TO Mary’s VIRGIN undefiled!!! WOMB…not her SOUL! Not her FLESH! Not her EGG! Not her MIND!
ALL souls belong TO GOD!
Souls were NEVER called “without sin”, “immaculate”, sinless….
Souls were and are GIVEN A naturally born ALIVE manKIND of being (after ADAM Eve) (so born VIA a Human mans SEED and a Human females EGG)…via the WILL OF THE HUMAN FLESH!
Name another Scripture of ANYONE “NOT” conceived IN SIN…
Name another Scripture of ANYONE “NOT” having committed SIN…
Gods Grace is an ACT of God, which God extends His Favoritism and Blessing upon a person…
Joseph, (son of Jacob), Daniel, Abraham, David, and others including Mary, were all favored and given particular blessings…
For example;
* Davids’ blessing was he was seated as a King, on an EVERLASTING Throne God Established.
* Abrahams’ blessing was he would be established as a father of many nations.
* Marys’ blessing was she would be honored among women.
ALL were naturally Conceived IN SIN, from the CORRUPT SEED of manKIND…including MARY, which Scripture DOES NOT SAY OTHERWISE….as a matter of FACT…Mary herself (like every other “human” being”) required/requires A SAVIOR, to become soul saved, spirit quickened and risen in A HOLY glorified Body…
No, Mary was NOT naturally born with a saved soul, a quickened spirit or holy glorified body….Mary was Conceived IN sin via the lust of FLESH of her natural daddy and mommy.
Yes there are passages describing her virgin status before Jesus was conceived in her but no mention of her being born without the stain of sin.
The only way Psalm 5:4 (God cannot dwell with sinfulness) and John 1:14 (God Incarnate dwelt with sinful man) can both be true is if we qualify one or the other of them as being inapplicable to a particular setting. And that is exactly what you did. You declared John 1:14 inapplicable to Jesus in the womb due to Mary's sinlessness.
When I challenged that conclusion, you pointed to the post-resurrection Mary Magdalene incident as proof that the gestational Jesus was as prone to the contaminant of sinful flesh as the pre-ascension glorified body of Jesus. But it ISN'T proof of that proposition at all. Jesus's glorified body awaiting ascension was different from His body in the womb, just as it was different from His body between birth and resurrection.
Mary IS NOT the “highlight” of Scripture.
She was approached by an Angel Servant of God to Fulfill a Request of God, and agreed to do so. Phenomenal? No. God made and continues to make numerous Requests for Human Beings to Fulfill particular roles IN SERVICE TO GOD…
Mary…”mother of God, queen of Heaven, statues, bowing down before images that represent Mary, praying TO Mary, claiming she was excepted from sin, etc. are man-made false claims”, NEVER taught or verified IN Scripture.
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Roland, keep in mind what sin is. IF you take a statement from Scripture in an absolute sense, then all one needs to do is provide one exception to prove that the absolute sense is in error.
The "all have sinned and fallens short of the glory of God" is such a case. Jesus never sinned. That's the first exception. Babies, infants, and young toddlers before the age of reason cannot sin. That's millions and millions of exceptions.
With regard to Mary, Scripture says she was born "full of grace" (the actual Greek word used was kecharitomeneI). (Luke 1:28) That word, used in the manner in which it was (as a perfect passive participle), indicated that 1) Mary was full of grace (without sin) from the first moment of her existence (her conception) in such a manner as to be permanent thereafter. Therefore, Mary qualifies as an exception, also.
I know this was addressed to @Pearl, but if you'll permit me: It's absolutely true that God, in advance, could have or could have not thought of creating -- not to mention could have or could have not actually created -- the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate sinless, spotless and immaculate. God, in advance, could have or could have not thought of (and done) a lot of things. Some actually came to be. Some not. But the fact that God could have thought to create Mary's soul sinless, spotless and immaculate does not mean that He did create it that way. Nor that He didn't. Reasoning from the possible to the actual is faulty reasoning.
Well, that's exactly the proposition to be proven! Sure, He could have preserved Mary "from inheriting the stain of original sin." But I don't know that He did so. Again, reasoning from the possible to the actual is faulty reasoning.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Again. Paganism.. Only A Pagan god has a mother
The argument is missing a step. Presuming that kecharitomenel = without sin, why should we assume that Gabriel's calling Mary "full of grace" when he appeared to her as a teenager necessarily means she was likewise "full of grace" at her conception? Cannot grace have been bestowed by God in the interim?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Grace = unmerited favor
The fact Mary needed grace to begin with shows she was a sinner..
Using the same argument, if Mary had to be sinless to birth Christ. Mary's mother would have to be sinless to birth her..
Also. She would have had to endure a virgin birth herself
Not a phenomena, Every human female and male that has not engaged in copulation is a Virgin.
It was Mary’s VIRGIN WOMB, that God elected to USE for His Service and Purpose….and Mary agreed.
It was Mary, “particularly Chosen” for numerous “OTHER” reasons aside from the FACT she was a VIRGIN…
Mary was NOT a “RANDOM” choice…
RATHER;
Mary’s being we’re ALL FACTORS, for Mary being FAVORED…CHOSEN, by God…
A virgin
A Faithful believer in God
A Faithful believer in the Lord
An Israelite.
A Nazarene.
Betrothed (engaged) to an Israelite, a Nazarene, a man OF the “House of David”, directly a STOCK descended from Abraham, Issac, Jacob, AND King David.
AND, to consider … a woman such as Mary, FAITHFUL to God, willing to SERVE God….
THEN…. men step IN and make outlandish corrupt statements and claims .
SUCH AS:
Mary “supposedly” DEFIED GOD, BY denying her Husband vie submission unto her Husband…WHEN GOD commanded MAN and WIFE to MULTIPLY, precisely by BECOMING ONE, physically and spiritually, according to Gods Order and Way.
ODD, how some people, who EXALT MARY as “sinless”, completely IGNORE; “IF” Mary were a “forever” VIRGIN, she would have REJECTED Gods command, to submit to her husband AND Multiply, (AFTER her particular service unto God and the Law was fulfilled. )
I don't accuse "forever" virgins (or whatever you call a woman who takes a vow of perpetual virginity) of being sinners for rejecting a command to submit to their husbands -- as long as they never take husbands! And I don't accuse barren wives of being sinners for rejecting a command to multiply. Are you suggesting that a woman who is fertile, but chooses not to marry, breaks two of God's commandments?
All you say is true and like me you probably find it quite frustrating and upsetting trying to get the truth across to someone who is deaf and blind spiritually.
All truths that have been said on these type of threads before but only God can open the ears of the deaf and the eyes of the blind. It is so sad that these Catholics can get bogged down with such teachings and never see the real message of the Gospel.
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
That's a good question, but to answer it, one has to look at the grammar used in the context of the statement. Not only does it imply that Mary was "full of grace" at the time that the angel said so, but it means it was a permanent state, from the very beginning of her existence. That would be when she was conceived. In addition, the word also implies that kecharitomene was more than a description. It was a title. And, I would add, none of this was through Mary's doing. It was a singular grace granted her by God.
It's interesting that the father of Protestantism, Martin Luther, believed that Mary was conceived without original sin, i.e., she was sinless.
Martin Luther said: "... so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin... And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin." (Martin Luther's Works, vol 4, pg 694)
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