The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[Soulx3]

Jesus referred to Himself as God in various ways more than once (Jn. 8:58;10:22-36), even the Pharisees understood that He did,
which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." (Jn. 10:33)

"...for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22)
"Christ ... Who committed no sin" (1 Pet. 2:21-22)

In verse 1 Pet. 2:22, it doesn't say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, God Incarnate, fully divine and fully human, experienced temptations of evil, and through His will in cooperation with God the Father's help, He did not commit sins. Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

Now, consider that only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity. Would Mary not have to be so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second to God, as to conceive God Incarnate, the Messiah, and offer Him to God the Father as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity?

Peter says, “...like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:15-16, cf. Lev. 19:2;20:7;20:26;21:8). Jesus, God Incarnate, was holy in all His behavior because He was without sin (1 Pet. 2:22), and thus He was completely Holy. If Mary was not without sin in all Her behavior, then She was not completely Holy and Perfect. Sin is disobedience, evil, and unholy (1 Jn. 3:4;8), and "no evil can dwell with God" (Ps. 5:4). Regarding Ps. 5:4 and Jn. 1:14, there's a difference between God Incarnate taking form inside a sinful human and living among sinful humans. Consider that Mary Magdalene, a sinful human, lived among God Incarnate, but she couldn't even touch Him after His resurrection yet because of her impurity from sins (Jn. 20:17). Therefore, how could God, the Most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly take form and dwell in a sinful (impure) body?

Do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of the first parents, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to take form in and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?​

 

[Jim C]

Well... for starters there is Roman's 3:23 "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Note it does not say, "all have sinned except Mary over there".

Secondly, for Christ to defeat sin, He had to be born of the flesh. To be born of someone who is sinless defeat the purpose, as they would not be from the line of Adam, or even human for that matter.

 

[Soulx3]

Well... for starters there is Roman's 3:23 "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Note it does not say, "all have sinned except Mary over there".

Secondly, for Christ to defeat sin, He had to be born of the flesh. To be born of someone who is sinless defeat the purpose, as they would not be from the line of Adam, or even human for that matter.

We read, "all have sinned," except Jesus, so why not Mary as well, the One Who conceived God Incarnate? There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well.

In order for the Christ to be born and fulfill His mission, He, God Incarnate, first had to be conceived and dwell in a womb. Why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him? Do you believe that God can or cannot preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin?

 

[marks]

Do you believe that God can or cannot preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin?

Questions like this are moot considering the Bible has already told us that none are without sin save Jesus Christ. All have sinned means Mary also.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Secondly, for Christ to defeat sin, He had to be born of the flesh. To be born of someone who is sinless defeat the purpose, as they would not be from the line of Adam, or even human for that matter.

Jesus can be human, while not from the line of Adam, but a new humanity, in which we leave the Adamic line, and are added to Jesus.

When Adam sinned, humanity became corrupted.

Much love!

 

[Soulx3]

All have sinned means Mary also.

We read, "all have sinned," except Jesus, so why not Mary as well, the One Who conceived God Incarnate? There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well. Why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him? Do you believe that God can or cannot preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin?

 

[Adrift]

In order for the Christ to be born and fulfill His mission, He, God Incarnate, first had to be conceived and dwell in a womb. Why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, take form in, and dwell in as God Incarnate, a body that was not the most Holy and Perfect, so as to be Second only to Him? Do you believe that God can or cannot preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin?

He Could. He could also turn himself into a vacuum cleaner. I believe that He will stand with his original statement.

 

[marks]

Why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, take form in, and dwell in as God Incarnate, a body that was not the most Holy and Perfect, so as to be Second only to Him? Do you believe that God can or cannot preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin?

Again, your questions are moot considering God has given clear and straightforward statements, that all have sinned. All.

Why would God lie to us in His Word? He doesn't lie.

Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

God humbled Himself to be here with us. Even though we are all sinners. Even Mary.

Much love!

 

[Soulx3]

He Could.

Therefore, do you believe that God, in advance, could or could not have Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, Whom He was to take form and dwell in as God Incarnate, the Messiah, and before infusing Her soul at the moment of Her conception, preserve it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus be an immaculate soul, so that She'd be able to contain within Her the most Holy, and Perfect One?

 

[O'Darby]

Jesus referred to Himself as God in various ways more than once (Jn. 8:58;10:22-36), even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." (Jn. 10:33)

Jesus, God Incarnate, was conceived and took form in Mary. Now, consider, only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity. Would one not have to be so perfect, to the point of being second to God, in order to conceive God Incarnate, the most Holy and Perfect One, and offer Him, God the Son, to God the Father as sacrifice for the sins of humanity?

If you disagree, Peter says, “...like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:15-16). Jesus, God Incarnate, was holy in all His behavior because He was without sin (1 Pet. 2:22), and thus He was completely Holy. Sin is disobedience, evil, and unholy (1 Jn. 3:4;8) and "no evil can dwell with God" (Ps. 5:4). If Mary was not without sin in all Her behavior, then She was not completely holy and perfect. Why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, take form in, and dwell in as God Incarnate, a body that was not the most Holy and Perfect, so as to be Second only to Him?

If you haven't, read the history of the doctrine. As with so many doctrines, it's more than a bit messy. I can understand the appeal and can picture the first person to whom it occurred: "Wait a minute, if Mary wasn't free from original sin and personal sin, then how could Jesus not have been tainted??? We gotta fix that!!!" The doctrine is largely tied in with Augustinian notions of original sin, which are widely rejected. Most theologies accept that He was divine because God was His Father and was sinless because He did not personally sin. If Mary was not fully human then Jesus was not fully human, and that's a problem. I don't think you're going to make any sales to those who aren't already Catholic.

 

[Soulx3]

Again, your questions are moot considering God has given clear and straightforward statements, that all have sinned. All.

Why would God lie to us in His Word? He doesn't lie.

Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

God humbled Himself to be here with us. Even though we are all sinners. Even Mary.

Much love!

We read, "all have sinned," except Jesus, so why not Mary as well, the One Who conceived God Incarnate? There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well. If you believe Mary sinned, then why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him?

 

[Soulx3]

If Mary was not fully human then Jesus was not fully human, and that's a problem.

God Incarnated Himself to be fully human and fully divine. Do you believe that He could or could not have made Mary fully human, but also so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second only to Him, so as to conceive God Incarnate?

 

[Adrift]

So, if you believe Mary sinned, then do you believe that God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly created a soul, took form in, and dwelled in as God Incarnate, a body that was not the most Holy and Perfect, so as to be Second only to Him? If so, why?

No. Mary didn't need to be perfect. Neither were the people that Jesus loved and ministered to. "All have sinned" implies what it states.

 

[Soulx3]

No. Mary didn't need to be perfect. Neither were the people that Jesus loved and ministered to. "All have sinned" implies what it states.

We read, "all have sinned," except Jesus, so why not Mary as well, the One Who conceived God Incarnate? There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well. If you believe Mary sinned, then why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him?

 

[O'Darby]

God Incarnated Himself to be fully human and fully divine. Do you believe that He could or could not have made Mary fully human, but also so Holy and Perfect as to be Second only to Him, so as to be conceived in, take form, and dwell in Her?

If Mary were holy and perfect, she would not have been fully human. Your question is like asking "Do you not believe God could have made a rectangle with only three sides?" God could make a three-sided figure, but it would not be a rectangle. The doctrine is nothing but a manmade attempt to deal with something that struck the Augustinian original sin folks as an analytical difficulty but does not strike anyone else as one.

 

[Adrift]

In her magnificent psalm uttered while carrying the Christ child, she exclaimed, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.” No sinless person needs a Savior. Clearly this statement implies that Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us (Romans 3:23).

 

[marks]

If so, why?

He became one of us.

Even so . . . for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Do you believe this passage is in error?

Much love!

 

[Soulx3]

In her magnificent psalm uttered while carrying the Christ child, she exclaimed, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.” No sinless person needs a Savior. Clearly this statement implies that Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us (Romans 3:23).

A savior is someone who saves someone or something. You agreed that God could preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin. Could God not have saved Mary by preserving Her soul from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus be Her Savior in that way, the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, the Messiah, and thus be an immaculate soul, so that She'd be able to contain within Her the most Holy, and Perfect One?

 

[Soulx3]

He became one of us.

I didn't ask for an explanation as to why God became man. I asked, why would God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him?

 

[Adrift]

A savior is someone who saves someone or something. You agreed that God could preserve a soul from inheriting the stain of original sin. Could God not have saved Mary by preserving Her soul from inheriting the stain of original sin, the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, Whom He was to take form and dwell in as God Incarnate, the Messiah, and thus be an immaculate soul, so that She'd be able to contain within Her the Most Uncontainable, Holy, and Perfect One?

He could have but he didn't. It was appropriate for Mary to be a sinful human in that the whole point in Jesus coming was to interact and teach salvation. Not to glorify his birth mother. God's focus was on Jesus and his mission. Mary was a good and worthy choice of God to bear his son.