Deborah_ said:There is quite a jump between "the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church" and "the truth will never leave the church." How do we know that is what Jesus means? Nowhere in the NT letters do the apostles seem to believe that the church is immune from falling into error!
If the gates of hell prevailed against the Church that means that Satan won and the church has fallen; Satan prevailed, not Christ. At no time in the last 2000 years has the Church that Jesus established fallen. Unless you can give me that time when Satan did prevail and the truth was lost?
As for false doctrines coming in, it happens everywhere, all the time. It happened during the first century (the Corinthian church contained some who didn't believe in the resurrection). There is no dramatic cut-off point that I'm aware of between the church of 'truth' and the church of 'untruth'. Nor is there any church or denomination that I know of that has lost all the truth.
Since all denominations interpret scripture differently (like baptism and the Eucharist) then all denominations HAVE lost at least some of the truth from what was originally taught by Jesus and his Apostles. If all denominations have only SOME of the truth then they are wrong about SOME of the things they teach which means no one denomination has the truth. If that is true then the truth has been lost and no one has the truth and Satan has prevailed. Who has the authority to decide the truth?? Based on your logic Satan did prevail and there is no one true Church that Jesus established.
Paul wrote to the Galatians, "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" (Galatians 1:8) Which implies that we must be alert to the possibility of false doctrine even at the highest levels of the church. For anyone (not just Catholics) to claim that their church is somehow free from all possibility of error is, to my mind, dangerously naive.
Once again you are saying that no one has the truth. If no one denomination has the truth then there is no truth in scripture. However if scripture is true and God breathed then who has the authority to decide what is true or not true? The Apostles had that authority. Where did that authority go after they died??
Looking at your website you seem to think YOU know the truth. However, based on your own logic, you don't have the truth. So what part of your website is not the truth??
I agree with you that if anyone (even an angel) preaches a gospel other than what the Apostles preached then they are under Gods curse. So if the 12 Apostles taught the truth to 12 others and those 12 taught 12 others and so on and so on for 2000 years then we do still have the truth. Don't we?? The key is to figure out who deviated from that truth and became heretical or false teachers and are now under Gods curse. Your website (you) could be under that curse.
The Catholic Church and Authority
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No, you don't have to know everything but you need to know that what you do believe is the truth.Deborah_ said:
You can be in one of three states:
1. in the truth
2. in error
3. in ignorance
Being in ignorance is better than being in error but it leads you open to being led astray. The early Church had to fight many heresies, mostly concerned with Christology - adoptionism, appolinarism. arianism, docetism, monarchianism, monophytism, nestorianism, sabelliainism and more. The Church spent several centuries fighting them,. If you look around you will many of them keep popping up in protestantism.
The question is: where can you be sure to get true teaching as passed on by the apostles? The only asnwer is the Church that Christ left for that very purpose - the Catholic Church
As to John 8:31,32:
Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
If you continue in his word. And what if you go astray and forsake his word for your own personal opinions?
tom55 has deal with this so I won't comment further
Actually they didn't . If you read the early Father you will find they teach what the Catholic Church teaches today. And after Luther and Calvin had broken away the errors came thisck and fast.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
Tom, you seem to imply that 'the truth' is a complete package: it's either all, or nothing. No shades of grey, no distinction between essentials and peripherals. That's probably a more fundamental distinction between us than anything else in the discussion.
Now I'm sure that the Church as a whole (i.e. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants) has the whole truth. We have disagreements, but we are all recognisably on the same page. Obviously, if we disagree, then we can't all be 'right' about every detail. What gets up one's nose is anyone with the assumption that "we are right so it's everyone else who must be wrong." And how much of the stuff outside the creeds matters, in the final analysis?
As for my opinions (as set out on my website), they have the same status as yours. They should be 'tested' (I John 4:1), but I believe they are within the bounds of orthodox Christianity. Furthermore, I have no authority over anyone. Nobody is obliged to agree with me, or to follow my teachings. I would go so far as to say that no teaching, whether Catholic or Protestant, should be accepted uncritically. The touchstone is the New Testament, not the doctrines of any church (because these inevitably evolve over the centuries).
Now I'm sure that the Church as a whole (i.e. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants) has the whole truth. We have disagreements, but we are all recognisably on the same page. Obviously, if we disagree, then we can't all be 'right' about every detail. What gets up one's nose is anyone with the assumption that "we are right so it's everyone else who must be wrong." And how much of the stuff outside the creeds matters, in the final analysis?
As for my opinions (as set out on my website), they have the same status as yours. They should be 'tested' (I John 4:1), but I believe they are within the bounds of orthodox Christianity. Furthermore, I have no authority over anyone. Nobody is obliged to agree with me, or to follow my teachings. I would go so far as to say that no teaching, whether Catholic or Protestant, should be accepted uncritically. The touchstone is the New Testament, not the doctrines of any church (because these inevitably evolve over the centuries).
Founded by Christ (Mt 16:18) on the apostles (Eph 2;20) and described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15)mjrhealth said:
He promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)
He appointed the Apostles with Peter as the leader (Mt 16:18-19) and gave them the mission to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. (Mt 28:16-20)
He promised he would not leave them on their own (Jn 14:18) but that he would be with them until the end of the age (Mt 28:20)
That is the Catholic Church.
Jesus is still with his Church. The Holy Spirit is still guiding it into the truth.
Deborah, Some Church has to have the whole truth or we fall into error. Jesus promised it would not.Deborah_ said:
Sure other Church denominations and sects have some of the truth but Jesus didn't say it would be spread around.
He prayed that it would be one Church (Jn 17:20-23)
It has one set of doctrines (Jude 3)
You write as if the differences were minor. They are not. They are salvational.
Here are some Important doctrines that Christians disagree on
The nature of the Church
Authority
Source of Revelation
How we are Justified
Salvation
Atonement
Eucharist
Sacraments
Take the Calvanist TULIP
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the saints
Catholics & Orthodox (at least) disagree with all five
These are not a few minor details.
P.S. What is orthodox christianity? Who defines it?
Sounds like YOU believe no one has the whole truth....even you.Deborah_ said:
I believe the Truth is a "complete package" because scripture is the God breathed Truth. I believe the Catholic Church has that truth. I believe the gates of hell have not prevailed against it and whatever it loosens and binds on earth is loosened and bound in heaven. Based on YOUR belief no one has the authority to loosen and bind which is opposite of what scripture says.
Your statement, "Now I'm sure that the Church as a whole (i.e. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants) has the whole truth" is strange. It seems you are saying that I, Tom55, can take bits and pieces from Catholics and Protestant teachings and choose what I believe to be the truth and make it my own truth. That mentality makes scripture about ME and not about Him. As you know scripture warns against this and is opposite of what you believe.
Doctrines are based on the truth of the NT. The truth does not "evolve over the centuries". The truth is always the truth and the truth was taught to the Apostles and they taught it to others and they taught others and so on and so on for 2000 years. Catholic Church doctrines are based on that truth. If a doctrine is based on a twisting of the scripture then that doctrine is not true. If that doctrine is not true then whoever came up with that doctrine is a heretic. According to your beliefs NO ONE has the authority to call anyone else heretical.
I am glad you clarified that your website is based on your opinions (your doctrines). That seems to me your admitting that you don't know the truth.
So I will ask you again: What part of your website is not the truth?? What part of your website is the truth? And how do you know?
THat would only be true if you where willing to call Jesus a murder, hypocrit, deciver, liar , oh that sounds juts like the devil himself. Are you so willing.
True, nothing to do with your religion ie church
No such thing, His ecclesia " church" if you must is founded on revelation of which there is so little found here.
mjrhealth, on 13 Aug 2016 - 9:15 PM, said:
That is one He made to all of us, I guee you missed this bit
1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him
But still you prefer your religion to the one who is the truth.
In teh end of it all, there is only one who can save you, and it is not your church. which some have rasied on a pedestal higher than God Himself.
Exactly and that is why when you insist your church is A number one we know its not true, and since you already know this why do you insist on propomoting a lie.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
I'm sure we would agree that the truth doesn't evolve. But our understanding of it can, and does. Otherwise the doctrine of the Trinity would have been formulated long before the 4th century.tom55 said:
And church teaching and practice can change - even within the Catholic Church. For the first thousand or so years of its existence, priests and clergy were allowed to marry. Then the Church changed its teaching, and ever since they have been required to be celibate.
If the truth doesn't change, when was the church wrong about this? Before 1000 AD, or after?
Dear Tom, my website is based on the Bible. It is Christian teaching, not my own made-up religion. Everything there is derived from the Bible (unless stated otherwise). Now I don't claim to be infallible, so it is possible that I have made a mistake somewhere. If you can find an error and convince me (from the Bible) that I am wrong, I will change it. But "The Catholic Church says so," is not a very convincing argument for anything.
Nobody is avoiding the issue of authority, we are just showing that the RCC and the pope are not the ultimate Authority. That's not avoidance no matter how you try to interpret the word. I know that most Catholics except their denominations Doctrine as infallible and that's the biggest issue but it's very hard to argue with those that are inculcated so it's pretty much the only option to show how the church supported Doctrine is wrong. Whether you believe that or not again is between you and God and whether or not God has enough of your attention to show you and you accept it. We may be sheep for Jesus but we also know Jesus's voice and we do not know the voice of the RCC or its pope, so we do not recognize that authority that the sheep of the RCC seem only to be able to understand and accept. Sadly there are a lot of real sheep in the RCC that follow Jesus but are not listen to within their own denomination.Mungo said:
Remember, the New Testament clearly shows that there is only one Shepherd, one Head of the Church and that sure isn't a pope. I suggest you study your Bible and learn what it has to say, instead of putting your institution and your pope against the common Christian because when you do that there's only really one outcome and it's not one you'll be satisfied with. The church is the living/breathing Body of Christ, not an institution headed by one man.
Jesus said he is the way the truth and the light and as such he does set us free. We know Jesus. We know his written word. It's a very simple formula that is available to all who want to hear the real Shepherd's voice.Mungo said:
If a Pope says that bears don't run in the woods and you see a bear run in the woods, who do you believe, your eyes or your pope? Your questions are just as inane. Jesus is the foundation of the church and anyone who builds upon his foundation improperly will see the results as clearly depicted in Scripture. Try reading 1st Corinthians 3 and see if you understand what Paul is conveying?
The rest of your post has nothing to do with the topic of the Catholic church in authority and clearly you have no idea what protestantism is all about, so I'll just leave it as irrelevant.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
Good question.Mungo said:
Orthodox Christianity is defined by the creeds. They are the only definitions agreed by the whole church.
Also, who defines what is 'salvational'? The requirements for salvation, according to the New Testament, are minimal:
Confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in the Resurrection. (Romans 10:9)
Believe that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead. (I Corinthians 15:1-8)
The doctrines on your list are important - but what makes them salvational?
Obviously this makes a difference to how we regard Christians from other denominations or traditions. The longer our list of 'essential' doctrines, the more exclusive we will be. Who decides where to draw the line? If you want to claim to be the one and only true church, all you have to do is declare everyone else a heretic.
The person who can clearly demonstrate it through the scripture and yes sometimes that involves consensus among many others.tom55 said:
John 14:26Mungo said:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
John 8:31-32
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
If we are committed to learning God's word he is committed to teaching us by the Holy Spirit.
I 100% agree with you on the Trinity statement.Deborah_ said:
Catholic priest can be married and some are. The Catholic Church practices this because it is based on scripture.
On your website you claim the Apostles Creed as "What you Believe". In the Creed it says, "I believe in the holy catholic (universal) church". If you believed in a "universal church" then you would believe in a church that has the same teaching throughout the world (universe). What you believe is that anyone or denomination can pick and choose what they want to believe and they are probably right or probably wrong. Scripture is not probably right or probably wrong. Scripture is right, it is the truth and it is infallible. Who has the authority to interpret it and claim it infallible?
The one error I found in your website is your argument on transubstantiation. In it you said, "After centuries of debate over the precise understanding of Jesus’ words, it was first promoted as official Catholic doctrine only in 1215, and was then refined a few decades later by Thomas Aquinas."
There was no argument over "the precise understanding of Jesus words". Even though the word "transubstantiation" was used to define the Eucharist as his true body and blood the Church always taught that it was his body and blood. They made it their official doctrine in 1215 to argue against heretics and go on record as official doctrine that it is his true body and blood. (they came up with a word to define it)
The Didache says in reference to the Eucharist, "Do not give what is holy to the dogs.” The early Christians believed it was holy because they believed it to be his body and blood. Ignatius of Antioch referring to "those who hold heterodox opinions," that "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again.' Read what Athenagoras of Athens wrote around 180 AD. I could go on and on about how the Church believed that it was his real body and blood BEFORE 1215 AD. It was common knowledge and practice and was only defined in 1215 because of heretics. Just like the Trinity Doctrine you pointed out earlier.
You don't believe what the Catholic Church writes (doctrines) but you believe what YOU write? Interesting!! So who is right in what they write??
Christ Jesus , the Holy Spirit and God, whom are left out of all your converstion. Your whole relgion is based on one line in teh bible being twisted to create some religion that has usurped "STOLEN" Gods authortiy from Him, sorry, think they have His authority, yet have none just like it says.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Every time you try to justify the lie , you have to twist scripture and teh bible to make it fit, and it doesn work.
The blind following teh blind, going to take a big ditch to fit you all in.
So we are back to the "consensus" thing. According to YOUR statement that means that YOUR beliefs are wrong since what you believe does not have a consensus (except on this forum).StanJ said:
Please come and join the majority so you will be right.
The church is not the RCC. The church is the collective true body of Believers also referred to as the Body of Christ.tom55 said:
It is a collective of believers worldwide that have one head, that being Jesus himself. They encompass probably every denomination in the world, but is not comprised of only those denominations. Again the church is not the RCC.
What I believe is definitely a consensus no matter how you look at it. Denying it or thinking that every Roman Catholic in this world actually thinks for themselves and understands God's word, makes it a consensus.tom55 said:
Rather than running around these type of farms trying to convince us that all of Roman Catholicism thinks the way you do maybe you should be on RCC forms to find out what they actually think because I can tell you from personal experience that many Roman Catholics don't think the way you do. I've known many over my lifetime and I was one before actually got saved and released from the bondage that is the RCC.
If the Church is one body then why is that body trying to destroy itself with conflicting doctrines? That doesn't sound like one body to me. It sounds like Satan is attacking it and winning.StanJ said:
If it encompasses every denomination in the world that would include the RCC. So that means the RCC has gotten at least something right in it's doctrine. Can you name that one thing??
Are you stalking me StanJ? You keep responding to my post to other people. Weird.
Yes the actual spiritual church is one body but it's the physical institution that's trying to destroy the spiritual entity.tom55 said:
It's people like you that insist on being committed to a physical Institution that is destroying the spiritual church.
What it means is that within the actual spiritual church there are people from within the RCC that don't try to push the agenda of the RCC but just believe in what the Bible teaches and believe that Jesus is their savior. They don't try to replace Jesus with people degrees and a huge physical Institution.
We are to be always vigilant against false teaching and as you seem to be the biggest proponent of false teaching here then yes I reply to your posts on a frequent basis. I'm retired, I have plenty of time.
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