The Church Age

[veteran]

I just think it wise not to attempt to assign a definite chronology concerning something of which Scripture is unclear, which leaves one only to conjecture, but many continue to try.

That would only apply of course IF... one is not yet solid on the "definite chronology" that is actually written in Scripture (i.e., timeline of Christ's return and our gathering to Him). The Pre-Trib Rapture chronology does not fit... the actual written Scripture.

Furthermore, why would someone claim it wise to not attempt to assign the Pre-Trib Rapture idea as Scriptural while at the same time PROMOTING it, to include writings of its promoters like Scofield?

I believe it's acceptable to want to know and have a preference to when you believe when might be the chronology of His coming, but concluding anything definite here is to be unaware that Scripture is unclear concerning it, and of which the Lord Jesus also said only the Father knows.

I kind of feel sad for you, because you post so much to show that you have done quite a bit of Bible study, and that you are advanced in years, yet you still have not determined from God's Word the times and seasons of our Lord Jesus' coming as written.

Furthermore, I don't recall seeing any of your posts promoting writings that reveal a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church.

So I feel like saying to you, "Pull this other leg and it plays jingle bells." But if you sincerely would like Bible help in determining the time times and seasons of our Lord Jesus' coming and our gathering to Him, then I'd be glad to help you.

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi again Net,

The bible was not written directly to us nor did Jesus speak to us. He spoke to his chosen people (the Jews) and in this case he was speaking to his disciples.


Jesus was speaking to his disciples when he said the temple would be destroyed.

His disciples ask him when would these things be - the destruction of the temple - the sign of Jesus’ coming - and the end of the age?

Jesus answered their question by stating the many things that would happen, then:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

As we can see, Jesus said to his disciples ‘ye’ shall see and ‘Verily I say unto you (the disciples) this generation shall not pass until all (everything mentioned) these things be fulfilled.

They (the disciples) would not know the day or hour but we know because history tells us the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Study of God's word is more than the quotes of men. Our love of God demands we know his word.

Hi RW - I'm unsure of what you are attempting to specifically imply, but concerning Matthew 24 containing a direct reference to the destruction of the Jewish Temple, I agree. But it also includes the same reference to two other events, which are: "the sign of thy coming; the end of the world?"

Thus, "that day and hour" (v 36) designs the intention of "these things" (v 3), which is the Temple's destruction (v 2); the word "and" in v 3 directly implies the other two events ("the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"), which is inclusive ("all these things" - v 34).

My belief concerning "this generation" is that it is in reference to the Jewish race, more so than to the present time of Christ speaking it to them ("generation": Greek; “genea,” Strongs G1074 - II. a. the several ranks of natural descent; the successive members of a genealogy). This includes the Jewish nationality through the entirety of this life.

If "this generation" was a chronological reference, it would conflict with the eschatologcal events of which Jesus prophesied in this chapter, which have yet to transpire.

I do not share this out of refutation but instruction, that the Holy Spirit teaches (1 Cor 2:13) much through [SIZE=11pt]the "quotes of men," who are learned men of God, many of whom He uses in the capacity of Bible commentators.[/SIZE]

That would only apply of course IF... one is not yet solid on the "definite chronology" that is actually written in Scripture (i.e., timeline of Christ's return and our gathering to Him). The Pre-Trib Rapture chronology does not fit... the actual written Scripture.

Furthermore, why would someone claim it wise to not attempt to assign the Pre-Trib Rapture idea as Scriptural while at the same time PROMOTING it, to include writings of its promoters like Scofield?


I kind of feel sad for you, because you post so much to show that you have done quite a bit of Bible study, and that you are advanced in years, yet you still have not determined from God's Word the times and seasons of our Lord Jesus' coming as written.

Furthermore, I don't recall seeing any of your posts promoting writings that reveal a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church.

So I feel like saying to you, "Pull this other leg and it plays jingle bells." But if you sincerely would like Bible help in determining the time times and seasons of our Lord Jesus' coming and our gathering to Him, then I'd be glad to help you.

You may produce a more effective testament and receive more responses by avoiding being accusative (third paragraph) and being more serious (last paragraph).

Regardless, I usually do not correspond much concerning eschatology, esp. that which concerns the chronology of the "first resurrection." My desire in sharing is that it be done out of love for others as much as out of love for "the Word of truth," and may this eventuate so for all believers.

 

[veteran]

My belief concerning "this generation" is that it is in reference to the Jewish race, more so than to the present time of Christ speaking it to them ("generation": Greek; “genea,” Strongs G1074 - II. a. the several ranks of natural descent; the successive members of a genealogy). This includes the Jewish nationality through the entirety of this life.

If "this generation" was a chronological reference, it would conflict with the eschatologcal events of which Jesus prophesied in this chapter, which have yet to transpire.

You got your first statements about the Matt.24 prophecy correct, but then you do a turn around with the idea of how Jesus meant "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" in Matt.24:34. It is meant about the specific generation that will see "all these things" He was forewarning. His Message was not just only for His disciples then, but for all the way to the end of this world, which is why... the end of the world and His coming He covered within it.

Are the doctrines of men of Dispensationalism and the Pre-Trib Rapture theory preventing you from understanding that Jesus was not just giving His Olivet Discourse there for Jews, but for His Church in toto? I think so, very much so.

You're just a closet Pre-Tribber.

You may produce a more effective testament and receive more responses by avoiding being accusative (third paragraph) and being more serious (last paragraph).


Regardless, I usually do not correspond much concerning eschatology, esp. that which concerns the chronology of the "first resurrection." My desire in sharing is that it be done out of love for others as much as out of love for "the Word of truth," and may this eventuate so for all believers.

If you don't think I'm serious about what I write here, then it's only because you choose to think that on your own.

Like I said, you're a closet Pre-tribber. You say you don't converse much concerning eschatology, then you present eschatology from Matthew 24 to Rocky in your previous post. That reveals I'm not the one who ought to be serious.

Maybe you don't realize that regardless of not trying to cover eschatology matters in God's Word, it is impossible to not do so for a believer on our Lord Jesus Christ. When we speak of Christ and His Salvation and proclaim His Word matters of eschatology will always be a part of it. Christ Jesus' second coming is not yet today; there, that's a simple eschatology statement simply because it is written prophecy in God's Word.

 

[Netchaplain]

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" in Matt.24:34. It is meant about the specific generation that will see "all these things" He was forewarning. His Message was not just only for His disciples then, but for all the way to the end of this world, which is why... the end of the world and His coming He covered within it.

Allow me to share this from B W Johnson's commentary because it's what I believe:

"Some hold that "all these things," in verse 33 and 34, refer only to what was said of the fall of Jerusalem, ending with verse 28. Others have contended that the phrase includes the second coming, but refers directly to the end of Jerusalem, which was a type of the end of the world.

"I believe, rather, that "all these things" embraces all thus far predicted, and that "this generation" means the Jewish race, instead of only those then living. The Greek word so rendered is used in the sense of race in the Greek classics, and as examples of such use in the New Testament, Alford points to Matt. 12:45, and Luke 16:8, as examples of such use in the New Testament. Christ has described the awful end of the Jewish state.

"After such a destruction and scattering of the remnant to the ends of the earth, all the examples of history would declare that the Jewish race would become extinct. Christ, however, declares that, contrary to all probability, it shall not pass away until He comes. They still exist, 1850 years after the prediction!"

 

[veteran]

Allow me to share this from B W Johnson's commentary because it's what I believe:

"Some hold that "all these things," in verse 33 and 34, refer only to what was said of the fall of Jerusalem, ending with verse 28. Others have contended that the phrase includes the second coming, but refers directly to the end of Jerusalem, which was a type of the end of the world.

"I believe, rather, that "all these things" embraces all thus far predicted, and that "this generation" means the Jewish race, instead of only those then living. The Greek word so rendered is used in the sense of race in the Greek classics, and as examples of such use in the New Testament, Alford points to Matt. 12:45, and Luke 16:8, as examples of such use in the New Testament. Christ has described the awful end of the Jewish state.

"After such a destruction and scattering of the remnant to the ends of the earth, all the examples of history would declare that the Jewish race would become extinct. Christ, however, declares that, contrary to all probability, it shall not pass away until He comes. They still exist, 1850 years after the prediction!"

Not sure I know how to convey this following idea of a reoccurring prophecy which only has all its parameters fulfilled together in final, which is what makes many think the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was the event our Lord Jesus was speaking of in Matt.24.

A Bible example is the prophecy in Daniel about the abomination of desolation involving a false one setting up idol worship in the temple at Jerusalem. In 170 B.C. one named Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled almost all of the Daniel prophecy about the placing of an abomination in Jerusalem's temple. He conquered Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine on the altar and spread it around inside the temple, then he setup an idol image to pagan Zeus worship and demanded all to bow to it. That was history.

Then in Matt.24, about 70 years later, our Lord Jesus warns of a coming abomination of desolation by another false one in the temple at Jerusalem? That meant the Daniel prophecy was not fulfilled by Antiochus in 170 B.C. It means look for another.

So what about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans? Where was the false one like Antiochus in that time, and the placing of an abomination idol inside the temple per the Daniel prophecy our Lord Jesus quoted in Matt.24? It didn't happen with the Romans, for the temple burned down before they could sieze possession of it (per the Jewish historian Josephus).

So to claim the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of its temple in 70 A.D. was the fulfillment of that part of the Matt.24 prophecy is error, simply because it was not fulfilled according to what our Lord Jesus gave there. The Roman general Titus had wanted to preserve the Jerusalem temple according to Josephus, but it caught fire during the battle for it.

Furthermore, the Greek word for "generation" in Matt.24:34 is the same Greek word translated to 'age, generation, nation, time' in other KJV NT Scripture. That means it does not always point to race, even how it can be used in our English language does also reveal.

In Matthew 24:34, our Lord Jesus is using "generation" in the time sense, because He is speaking of a timeline of prophetic events with the specific generation time of those who will 'see' "all these things" coming to pass.

Matt 24:32-37
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)

In the previous Matt.24 verses, our Lord Jesus had just covered the prophetic event of His sending His angels to gather His saints after the tribulation He also spoke of there (other version in Mark 13 which includes the "caught up" concept of 1 Thess.4). Now here starting at v.32 He imparts a reminder about the parable of the fig tree. Why?

It's because the parable of the figs which God gave Jeremiah in Jeremiah 24 Christ made part of this prophecy timeline. Within Jer.24, God foretold how Judah as the good basket of figs would be brought back to the holy land and never removed again. Should be easy to recognize that being fulfilled in 1948 when the house of Judah became the nation of Israel again in the middleast. Since 70 A.D. Jerusalem until 1948 the Jews never possessed the land there as a nation.

That's what marks the "generation" which Jesus spoke of to mean the final generation of this present world leading up to His return.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

I believe that the failure of the Church to see that she is a separated, a called-out Body in the purpose of God, charged with a definite mission limited in its purpose and scope, and the endeavor to take from Israel her promises of earthly glory, and appropriate them over into this Church dispensation, has done more to swerve the Church from the appointed course than all other influences put together. It is not so much wealth, luxury, power, pomp, and pride that have served to deflect the Church from her appointed course, as the notion, founded upon Israelish Old Testament promises, that the Church is of the world, and that therefore, her mission is to improve the world. Promises which were given to Israel alone are quoted as justifying what we see all about us today.

The Church, therefore, has failed to follow her appointed pathway of separation, holiness, heavenliness and testimony to an absent but coming Christ; she has turned aside from that purpose to the work of civilizing the world, building magnificent temples, and acquiring earthly power and wealth, and in this way, has ceased to follow in the footsteps of Him who had not where to lay His head. Did you ever put side by side the promises given to the Church, and to Israel, and see how absolutely in contrast they are? It is impossible to mingle them.

The Jew was promised an earthly inheritance, earthly wealth, earthly honor, and earthly power. The Church is promised no such thing, but is pointed always to heaven as the place where she is to receive her rest and her reward. The promise to the Church is a promise of persecution, if faithful in this world, but a promise of a great inheritance and reward hereafter. In the meantime, she is to be a pilgrim body, passing through the scene, but abiding above.

In the New Testament we have the history of the Church down to the year 96. In the first chapter of Acts we have the birth of the Church, and oh, how beautiful she was in her first freshness of faith! It was a lovely manifestation of simplicity, unselfishness, holiness and spiritual power. Yet we pass on but a few years, and in the epistles to the Corinthians, what do we find? Paul writes, “I hear there are divisions among you.” They began then, and they have never ceased to this day. In the second and third chapters of Revelation we have the condition of the Church at that time; full of works still (each is addressed with “I know your works”—NC), but fallen from its first love.

After Ephesus, AD 96, comes the period of persecution. For three centuries the Church was in awful persecution. Then came a great change. The Emperor Constantine professed conversion, and Christianity became the court religion. Then the tables were turned and the Church began to persecute! And, of all things she should never have done, she became the persecutrix of the Jews! The Church, saved by faith in the Messiah who came from the Jews; having in her hand the Bible which was written by the Jews; receiving her teaching solely and only though Jewish sources, became, for one thousand years, the bitter, relentless, bloody persecutor of Judaism. With that came worldliness and priestly assumption, and the Dark Ages.

Then in the fifteenth century, came the Reformation out of which have come protestant movements of various kinds. The Bible was put into the hands of the people, and has been translated into many tongues. With an open Bible came light and liberty again, but never union again. On the contrary, division followed division; sect followed sect. It is true that the great body of the churches believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, but they have turned aside the greater part of their resources, to the attempt to reform the world, to educate the world, and, in short, to anticipate the next dispensation in which those things belong, and to do the work that is distinctly set apart for restored and converted Israel (Jer 31:31; Ezek 36:26) in her Kingdom Age.

Is the Gospel then a failure? God forbid! The Gospel never failed, and can never fail. God’s Word by the Gospel is accomplishing precisely the mission which was foreseen and foretold for it, that whereunto if was sent. And we must not forget, either, that the Gospel will yet bring the world (those out of the world—NC) to the Savior. It is not at all a question of the ultimate triumph of the blessed Lord. The heathen may rage and the people imagine vain things, but the Father will yet set His King on His holy hill in Zion. Converted Israel, glorified saints, even a mighty angel shall yet proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom, and “the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it” (Isa 2:2). “The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Isa 11:9). All this will surly come to pass, for the Lord hath spoken it—but not in this dispensation. This is the age (dispensation—NC) of the “ecclesia”—of the called out ones.

Let me ask you, what is God doing in this age of ours? Is He not taking out of the Gentiles a people? A few Jews are being converted, for Paul tells us there is always a remnant in Israel according to the election of grace (Rom 11:5), but the great, the altogether vast majority of the Church is taken out of the Gentiles. This we all see. To believe this is not at all a matter of faith, but of simple observation. Not, anywhere, the conversion of all, but everywhere, the taking out of some. The evangelization of the world, then, and not its conversion, is the mission committed to the Church (Matt 28:19—NC). To do this, to preach the Gospel unto the uttermost parts of the earth, to offer salvation to every creature, is our responsibility. It is the divinely appointed means for the calling out of a people for His Name, the Church, and the “Ecclesia.”

Further, the purpose of the Father in this age is not the establishment of the Kingdom. The Old Testament prophets tell us in perfectly simple, unambiguous language how the Kingdom is to be brought in, who is to be its ruler, and the extent and character of the rule, and the result in the universal prevalence of peace and righteousness. Alas, nothing would suffice but the bringing of the Prophets bodily over into this Church age! This is the irremediable disaster which the wild allegorizing of Origen and his school has inflicted upon exegesis. The intermingling of Church purpose with Kingdom purpose palsied evangelization for thirteen hundred years, and is today the heavy clog upon the feet of them who preach the glad tidings.

See how inevitably so. The Kingdom applies spiritual forces to the solution of material problems. How shall man live long and wisely? The Kingdom is the answer. How shall exact justice be done on earth? The Kingdom provides for it. When shall wars and human butchery cease in this blood-saturated earth? When the Kingdom is set up by the King Himself. When shall creation give up to men her potential secrets? In the Kingdom age. When shall the earth be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea? When the King and His Kingdom are here.

Of all these things the O.T. prophets are full. We turn to the N.T. and find what? The birth of the King, the heralding of the Kingdom as “at hand,” the announcement in the Sermon on the Mount of the principles of the Kingdom, the utter refusal of Israel to receive her King, the passing of the Kingdom into the mixed and veiled condition set forth in the seven parables of Matthew Thirteen, its full revelation being postponed till “the harvest,” which is fixed definitely “at the end of this age.” And then the Kingdom being thus postponed, what is revealed as filling and occupying this age? The Church! Christians, let us leave the government of the world till the King comes; let us give our time, our strength, our money, our days to the mission distinctively committed to the Church, namely, to make the Lord Jesus Christ known “to every creature.”

- C I Scofield

I thought the purpose for the church was to bring the blessing of Abraham to the Gentiles through Christ the promised Seed and that they are Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ as the ONE NEW MAN restored.

Gen 28:5
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
KJV
Gal 3:13-18
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV
Heb 8:10-13
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

{God won't remember them, BECAUSE THEY WON'T DO THEM ANY MORE HAVING THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE WORD INDWELLING THEM}
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

 

[Netchaplain]

I thought the purpose for the church was to bring the blessing of Abraham to the Gentiles through Christ the promised Seed and that they are Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ as the ONE NEW MAN restored.

Gen 28:5
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
KJV
Gal 3:13-18
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV
Heb 8:10-13
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

{God won't remember them, BECAUSE THEY WON'T DO THEM ANY MORE HAVING THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE WORD INDWELLING THEM}
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

Your reply is well stated and is accurate, and I have just posted an article that addresses this in hopes of getting more understanding for all of us--through one another!