THE CHURCH IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

[Lizbeth]

So, fallen man in Israel is able to negate God`s purpose for them?

Not at all......they fulfill God's purpose when they receive their Messiah/Christ and not apart from Him. God's word and prophecies for Israel need to be seen through the lens of the gospel, comparing spiritual with spiritual. The Key of David (Jesus) unlocks their true meaning, which had hitherto been kept hid. Only He can give us eyes to see and ears to hear. The prophecies are not fulfilled by earthly Israel as such, but by the Israel of God. Earthly Israel in scripture being an allegory for the Israel of God, the kingdom of God.

 

[Lizbeth]

And what truth is that?

Well in this case, the truth that I put forth in my post. Christ is head of His body, as a husband is head of his wife, which shows that body and bride/wife are two allegories for the same thing.

 

[GracePeace]

Well in this case, the truth that I put forth in my post. Christ is head of His body, as a husband is head of his wife, which shows that body and bride/wife are two allegories for the same thing.

It's the already-but-not-yet paradigm : on one level, we're already bearing fruit for God with Christ (Ro 7:4); on another level, we are still waiting for the wedding. We already have the spirit of adoption, but we have not yet had the adoption of the body, but we eagerly await it (Ro 8). "The time is coming and now is." On one level, we're still in the wilderness (1 Co 10); on another level, we're in the promised land (1 Jn 5 "we have eternal life" vs Gal 6 "we shall reap eternal life in due season if we do not faint"; compare Lev 18 "therefore the land vomits out its inhabitants with Rev 3 "vomit you out of My mouth" and "Israel is a Vine" and "I am the True Vine").

 

[Doug]

Speculation and eisegesis at it''s finest - adding one's opinion to God's Word to try to make it say something it does not say!

Sorry pal, God grafted the gentiles in to His family.

He did graft Gentiles into the wild olive tree
The question is which Gentiles is Paul talking about

Romans 9 10 11 is about Israel....................[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Paul is talking about the remnant of Israel................[Rom 9:27 KJV] 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

There was a believing remnant at the time wrote Romans,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul addressed the Gentiles in the remnant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[Rom 11:13 KJV] 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of believing Israel................[Rom 11:20-21 KJV] 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

The Gentiles in Romans are members of the remnant of Israel.....they believed the preaching of Peter and the disciples
They arent the Gentiles in the body of Christ where there is neither Jew or Gentile

 

[Doug]

If they were "Gentiles" who were "of the remnant of Israel" (LOL!), he would use the same language as he used of the branches that had been broken off from THEIR OWN olive tree,

Paul did warn these Gentiles that they too would be cut off if they were unbelieving

[Rom 11:20-22 KJV] 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Lizbeth]

It's the already-but-not-yet paradigm : on one level, we're already bearing fruit for God with Christ (Ro 7:4); on another level, we are still waiting for the wedding. We already have the spirit of adoption, but we have not yet had the adoption of the body, but we eagerly await it (Ro 8). "The time is coming and now is." On one level, we're still in the wilderness (1 Co 10); on another level, we're in the promised land (1 Jn 5 "we have eternal life" vs Gal 6 "we shall reap eternal life in due season if we do not faint"; compare Lev 18 "therefore the land vomits out its inhabitants with Rev 3 "vomit you out of My mouth" and "Israel is a Vine" and "I am the True Vine").

Amen! Well said and totally agree! "All things HAVE been put under the feet of Christ but we do not yet SEE all things put under Him."Amen.

 

[Doug]

If they were "Gentiles" who were "of the remnant of Israel" (LOL!), he would use the same language as he used of the branches that had been broken off from THEIR OWN olive tree, which they are native to--that they were being grafted back in--but, as we see, he describes these Gentile believers as having sprung from wild olive trees (outsider nations), and, then, grafted in to the cultivated olive tree CONTRARY TO NATURE.

Romans 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

The Gentiles are WILD olive tree branches grafted in to the CULTIVATED olive tree, contrary to nature, but HOW MUCH MORE (this is different) will the NATURAL BRANCHES be grafted back in to THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

But yeah you aren't interested in submitting to Scripture. Everyone else can enjoy the response though.

Here is what I wrote in another post

He did graft Gentiles into the wild olive tree
The question is which Gentiles is Paul talking about

Romans 9 10 11 is about Israel....................[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Paul is talking about the remnant of Israel................[Rom 9:27 KJV] 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

There was a believing remnant at the time wrote Romans,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul addressed the Gentiles in the remnant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[Rom 11:13 KJV] 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of believing Israel................[Rom 11:20-21 KJV] 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

The Gentiles in Romans are members of the remnant of Israel.....they believed the preaching of Peter and the disciples
They arent the Gentiles in the body of Christ where there is neither Jew or Gentile

 

[Doug]

LOL Christ is the antitype of the promised land, or else He wouldn't have warned "I will vomit you out of My mouth".

What does this mean?

 

[GracePeace]

Paul did warn these Gentiles that they too would be cut off if they were unbelieving

[Rom 11:20-22 KJV] 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You keep moving the goalposts.
The issue isn't whether anyone (Gentile or Jew) can be cut off.
The issue is the language he uses debunks your ignorance--wild olive tree branches are grafted contrary to nature into the cultivated olive tree, but "how much more" will the natural olive tree branches (those who naturally belong to the cultivated olive tree--the physical descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob) can be grafted back into their own olive tree.
You're unwilling to be corrected by knowledge.

 

[GracePeace]

What does this mean?

Leviticus 18 "therefore the land vomits out its inhabitants"
Revelation 3 "I will vomit you out of My mouth"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But Paul tells us by the Holy Spirit for 4 chapters in Ephesians that we are the New Man and will come to the Perfect Man.

Do you disregard that doctrine?

Not in the least.

So why does Jesus need to marry millions of men and women?

Well I can't tell you, you can ask Him. But He said He will, so He will, whether or not we can understand it or not.

 

[Lizbeth]

It's important to bear this in mind--otherwise, we would be relegated to believing Christ must be destroyed in the future, because people idolize Him, since He said He was typified by the Bronze Serpent. There are limitations to each picture that is employed to paint a picture of the truth. If He highlights one aspect, it may just be that one aspect He wanted to highlight, and didn't want people to dig further.

Amen, exactly. People often try to over-analyze and dissect allegories and parables and end up making more out of them and going further with them than the Author intended. Most of the time we just need to see/grasp the general picture He is painting with them, with the Holy Spirit giving us eyes to see.

 

[GracePeace]

Here is what I wrote in another post

He did graft Gentiles into the wild olive tree
The question is which Gentiles is Paul talking about

He grafted Gentiles into the wild olive tree? LOL
Bro, I'm not even going to read the rest of your mess.
Why would God need to graft Gentiles into wild olive trees? The wild olive trees REPRESENT Gentile nations!

Which "Gentiles"?

The same Gentiles who are not the people who broke Covenant with God and made Him jealous by choosing another god for themselves, in response to which God designs to make them jealous by choosing another people for Himself!

How would God make them jealous if He chooses those very same people? LOL
That's like arguing "When the Israelites chose another god, that was actually YHWH, the same god."

 

[Lizbeth]

When Paul was talking about Gentiles being grafted in he was talking about Gentiles in the remnant of Israel not the body of Christ
He was talking about Gentiles who believed the preaching of Peter as in Acts 10 not believers of Paul's gospel

Oh my, this is confusion.

 

[GracePeace]

Amen, exactly. People often try to over-analyze and dissect allegories and parables and end up making more of them and going further with them than the Author intended. Most of the time we just need to see/grasp the general picture He is painting with them, with the Holy Spirit giving us eyes to see.

Colossians 2:18 Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind.

 

[Lizbeth]

The promised land was promised to Israel

He speaks to us in parables brother. Allegories. That is a very important key to understanding. Israel in scripture is an allegory for the church. The promised land is an allegory TO THE CHURCH for the kingdom of heaven with Christ as its king. Scripture says "these things happened unto them (Israel) and were written down as ensamples to the church, for our admonishment" (1Cor 10:11).

 

[GracePeace]

He speaks to us in parables brother. Allegories. That is a very important key to understanding. Israel in scripture is an allegory for the church. The promised land is an allegory TO THE CHURCH for the kingdom of heaven with Christ as its king. Scripture says "these things happened unto them (Israel) and were written down as ensamples to the church, for our admonishment" (1Cor 10:11).

Israel/Canaan was the promised Land for the Jews; I believe Christ is the antitype, because "being found in Him not having a righteousness of my own from the Law but a righteousness from God based on faith in Christ", or "walking in the spirit", because "this is the promise He has given us, even eternal life, and this life is in His Son"... the promise is eternal life, but this life is located in His Son, so if we remain in His Son, walking in the Spirit, we will retain and obtain (finally--another already-but-not-yet) the promised eternal life.

 

[Lizbeth]

Israel/Canaan was the promised Land for the Jews; I believe Christ is the antitype, because "being found in Him not having a righteousness of my own from the Law but a righteousness from God based on faith in Christ", or "walking in the spirit", because "this is the promise He has given us, even eternal life, and this life is in His Son"... the promise is eternal life, but this life is located in His Son, so if we remain in His Son, walking in the Spirit, we will retain and obtain (finally--another already-but-not-yet) the promised eternal life.

I very much agree....being in the kingdom means to be in Christ, there is no contradiction. Walking in the kingdom is the same thing as walking in Christ, in His Spirit. I hadn't thought of the promised land as being an allegory for being in Christ before....it is a wonderful revelation in my opinion and I thank you for sharing it.

 

[GracePeace]

I very much agree....being in the kingdom means to be in Christ, there is no contradiction. Walking in the kingdom is the same thing as walking in Christ, in His Spirit. I hadn't thought of the promised land as being an allegory for being in Christ before....it is a wonderful revelation in my opinion and I thank you for sharing it.

Yep. 1 Co 10, which you cited, makes the comparison.

 

[Doug]

You keep moving the goalposts.

I have always said the Gentiles grafted in were not in the body of Christ but were in the believing remnant of Israel
They could be cut off as well thru unbelief