THE CHURCH IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
- Thread starter Doug
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The catholic church interprets Matthew 16:18-19 as both times Jesus uses the word rock as reference to Peter.
They teach Peter is whom the church of Christ is built upon.
They need to teach this because they also claim Peter is the first pope.
That's a big nope!!
Jesus hears Peter publicly proclaim that Jesus is God, the Messiah.
So based upon Peter's confession/testimony Jesus says I will build My church.
Jesus is stating that Peter spoke the truth about Him outloud and this knowledge was given to Peter from God Himself. Therefore based on this truth that is now public knowledge of who Jesus is, Jesus will establish His church on this fact/truth.
Catholics are wrong, Peter's testimony is what Christ will build His church upon not Peter himself.
Matthew 16:15-18,
- Jesus said unto them, but who say ye that I am?
- and Simon Peter said thou art the Christ the Son of the living God
- and Jesus said unto him, blessed art thou Simon BarJonah for flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you but My Father which is in heaven
- and I say u to thee that thou art Peter(rock, masculine) and upon this rock(confession, feminine) I will build My church and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it
This does not make sense Doug,
Since Peter's gospel saved the first gentiles to convert to Christianity that's One gospel, Peter's.
Then later Paul saves gentiles under his gospel, that another gospel for gentiles.
So it logically follows that there are two different gospels for gentiles.
If nothing I assert makes sense then discard my teachings
Just believe Paul's gospel
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter how the Catholic Church interprets it to bolster their Church--what Christ says is clear, that He builds His Church upon Peter the rock. I don't need to play word games to try to get out of Catholicism's claims, I just read and believe what Christ says.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
I not only discard your assertions, I bring reasons why they are absurd so as to prevent others from being confused like you are.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
So... you don't see a flaw in your logic? Christ says that Peter is the rock He builds His Church upon, meaning that Peter is both part of "believing Israel" and part of "the Church", making him, according to you, both part of "the bride" and not part of "the bride".
OOPSIE! LOL!
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Peter is clearly, for what ever reason, the foremost apostle. Peter was among the three Jesus brought with Him on the mount of transfiguration, was among the three He brought to pray with Him, was the one who confessed Jesus had the words of eternal life, was the one who preached at Pentecost, Peter walked on the water, John let him go in before him into the tomb, Peter went fishing and the others followed, and John placed himself walking BEHIND Peter and Jesus at the end of his Gospel. Clearly, Peter is foremost, for what ever reason--and, yes, Jesus says His Church is built upon Peter the rock.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
The church is built upon "Revealed Knowledge" that comes thru the Holy Spirit based on God's Word.
That's what Jesus was talkin about.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
@Doug Some of the fatal flaws in your view :
1. You say that believing Israel was unsecure in their salvation, but we are secure, because John 15 says they could be cut off, yet, in "Paul's Gospel to the Gentiles", which you say differs from "Peter's Gospel to Israel", he also warns that those who do not persist in faith can be cut off (Ro 11:17-22).
2. Paul called Peter to repent of his hypocrisy and walk in accordance with THE (singular) truth of THE (singular) Gospel (Gal 2)--this couldn't have worked if they had preached two different Gospels, and were being held to two different standards, but, again, there was only ONE truth of ONE Gospel they were both being held to.
3. You have to argue that the Gentiles referred to in Romans 10:12,13 are the Gentiles who believed in Peter's Gospel, but we have a better option--the Gentiles in Ro 13, whom Paul identifies as the "another people" God chooses to drive to jealous the people who made Him jealous by choosing another god, and it makes as much sense to define the people He chooses in their (Israel's) stead to make them (Israel) jealous as it does to say the god they chose in His stead was actually Him and that made Him jealous. No, these are people who are not the same people that made Him jealous, just as He was not the same god they chose.
4. Jesus says He builds His Church upon Peter, the rock, yet you claim Peter is part of "the remnant of Israel", which is Christ's bride, but how can he be BOTH part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the remnant of Israel" AND not part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the Church" (since you say the Church is not the bride)?
1. You say that believing Israel was unsecure in their salvation, but we are secure, because John 15 says they could be cut off, yet, in "Paul's Gospel to the Gentiles", which you say differs from "Peter's Gospel to Israel", he also warns that those who do not persist in faith can be cut off (Ro 11:17-22).
2. Paul called Peter to repent of his hypocrisy and walk in accordance with THE (singular) truth of THE (singular) Gospel (Gal 2)--this couldn't have worked if they had preached two different Gospels, and were being held to two different standards, but, again, there was only ONE truth of ONE Gospel they were both being held to.
3. You have to argue that the Gentiles referred to in Romans 10:12,13 are the Gentiles who believed in Peter's Gospel, but we have a better option--the Gentiles in Ro 13, whom Paul identifies as the "another people" God chooses to drive to jealous the people who made Him jealous by choosing another god, and it makes as much sense to define the people He chooses in their (Israel's) stead to make them (Israel) jealous as it does to say the god they chose in His stead was actually Him and that made Him jealous. No, these are people who are not the same people that made Him jealous, just as He was not the same god they chose.
4. Jesus says He builds His Church upon Peter, the rock, yet you claim Peter is part of "the remnant of Israel", which is Christ's bride, but how can he be BOTH part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the remnant of Israel" AND not part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the Church" (since you say the Church is not the bride)?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
He most certainly is. As noted, the subject never changes--Jesus names Peter "Cephas", the rock, then says he will build His Church on that rock, then says He gives the keys to "you" (singular), Peter.
No, but I recognize Peter was the foremost Apostle, and, indeed, his name is on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem, which is the Church (Revelation 21:14).
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The Subject is CHRIST = "Who do men say I am"
The Subject begins with Jesus
The Subject is about the Revelation of Jesus as the CHRIST
The FATHER revealed to Peter that Jesus is the prophesied MESSIAH/CHRIST
The MESSIAH/CHRIST is the "Rock of our Salvation" = Psalm 95:1
The Subject ends with Jesus the CHRIST
Peter is the recipient of the Revelation/Truth of who JESUS is.
Jesus builds His church on that Revelation= Peter even said so and wrote about it = 1 Peter chapter 2
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
No, the context is Jesus RENAMES Peter as "Rock", then says "upon this rock", then says He gives the keys to "you" (singular), so the subject never shifts from Peter. Sorry, that's just how I read it.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You must be catholic
You need to read the entire Gospel and the Apostles letters = especially 1 & 2 Peter
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Nope, as stated, not Catholic.
As explained, I see the statement "upon this rock" as sandwiched between two addresses of Peter, thus I read it as referring to Peter, who had just been renamed "Rock". I also see Peter as the foremost Apostle, as explained.
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