The corner

[Lambano]

@Lambano and @talons I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. Does what Gregory of Nyssa said (on behalf of historical orthodox trinitarianism, as a representative voice, I’ve suggested) cause you to change your mind on the question of dichotomy?

Greg of Nyssa contrasts Trinitarianism with classical Jewish monotheism, and yes, they are not the same. But if polytheism is the polar opposite of monotheism (which it is, by definition), Greg also contrasts Trinitarianism with that.

Is it a complete dichotomy? Trinitarian monotheism is obviously NOT traditional Jewish monotheism. But historically, Trinitarianism assumes monotheism and is derived from and makes concessions to Jewish monotheism.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The two groups don’t get along well with one another, to put it mildly. I don’t get along well with the trinitarian group, and not particularly well with the unitarian group (they tend to reject Paul, whereas I endorse and affirm Paul.)

I'm a unitarian and interested to know what you mean by reject Paul?

 

[Matthias]

I'm a unitarian and interested to know what you mean by reject Paul?

They are Judaizers. They reject the teaching of Paul.

 

[JustMe]

Greg's (of Nyssa) statement made it even worse that the Greek school. In my previous post about the lions example, I noted that if the persons or even things in question have the same or common nature, then because there is only one nature involved, does not give license to make all of them, collectively one being or in this case one god, as one nature in a plurality of persons. This is an example of the imagination running amok.

They are not making different persons as a single person. They are saying that the one common nature aspect makes the 3 persons, one being in unity.

 

[Matthias]

Greg of Nyssa contrasts Trinitarianism with classical Jewish monotheism, and yes, they are not the same. But if polytheism is the polar opposite of monotheism (which it is, by definition), Greg also contrasts Trinitarianism with that.

Is it a complete dichotomy? Trinitarian monotheism is obviously NOT traditional Jewish monotheism. But historically, Trinitarianism assumes monotheism, is derived from Jewish monotheism, and makes concessions to Jewish monotheism.

Thanks. In light of that, would you still say that it is a false dichotomy?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I'll take the time to explain the reason I voted "Yes" (they belong in the same corner). The doctrine IN THE FORM IT IS STATED (three hypostases; one ousia) is a concession to classical Jewish monotheism. My understanding is that by the time Nicaea and Chalcedon rolled around, the Church had already concluded that both the Father and the Son were divine, if I am using the term "divine" correctly. (The Holy Spirit is somewhat of an afterthought.) Since the oneness of God is non-negotiable (Jesus Himself affirms this in Mark 12:29), the official statement from the Councils defining the Trinity was carefully formulated to support Christ's divinity while retaining monotheism. And it bears all the marks of having been designed by committee.

To reiterate: This is not a debate; I am attempting to explain why I voted the way I did.

I voted no just so we are being transparent. And I wish not to debate in this thread.

I've long found it interesting that the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD did not set out with the explicit goal of "deifying Jesus" Instead, the council was convened primarily to resolve a theological dispute that was threatening the unity of the early Christian church. The core issue was the teaching of Arius, a presbyter from Alexandria, who argued that: Jesus (the Son) was created by God the Father and therefore was not eternal or fully divine in the same sense as the Father.

While I don’t agree with all of Arius’s teachings, this particular belief is one I do share.

So when it comes to the vote and the opposing doctrines, the views concerning the relationship between the Father and the Son (leaving aside the Holy Spirit for now) are far apart as light is from darkness, especially in how they impact key teachings like the atonement.

I think it's important to also state that while the councils goal was not to "deify Jesus" what eventuated was an affirmation of what many in the council already believed.

I’ve debated this topic for over 30 years, and I’ve recently come to believe that the return of my Lord will ultimately resolve the matter once and for all.

 

[Hiddenthings]

They are Judaizers. They reject the teaching of Paul.

Sorry, I don’t mean to be difficult, but I’m still not quite clear on what you’re implying.

You are referring to Christian Gentile Unitarians? Or Jewish?

 

[Matthias]

Sorry, I don’t mean to be difficult, but I’m still not quite clear on what you’re implying.

Thank you for asking for clarification. And welcome to the forum.

You are referring to Christian Gentile Unitarians? Or Jewish?

I’m referring to the unitarian branch of Messianic Judaism. They are Jews who believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah but reject the liberty believers have as expressed in the letters of Paul.

 

[talons]

But you voted "No". Was that a mistake?

Ok , I think I understood the premise of the OP .

I thought they did not belong in the same corner was Classic Jewish monotheism does not except Jesus as the Messiah .
Truly I would not say the two are in opposite corners either though .

 

[Matthias]

Ok , I think I understood the premise of the OP .

I thought they did not belong in the same corner was Classic Jewish monotheism does not except Jesus as the Messiah .
Truly I would not say the two are in opposite corners either though .

Thanks.

It appears to me that in your case the dichotomy is (or may be) either true or false and is based not on (or at least not exclusively on) monotheism per se but rather on confession that Jesus is the Messiah.

The majority of Jewish monotheists deny that Jesus is the Messiah. Would that be the reason for thinking of it as true dichotomy?

The minority of Jewish monotheists affirm that Jesus is the Messiah. Would that be the reason for thinking of it is a false dichotomy?

 

[Kokyu]

In conversation this morning @David Lamb suggested to me in another thread -

”Putting ‘the Trinity’ in one corner and ‘Jewish monotheism’ in another is a false dichotomy.”

Dichotomy - “a difference between two completely opposite ideas or things.”

dichotomy
He continues,

”Believing in the Trinity is not believing in three Gods. Believers in the Trinity are also Monotheists. They too believe in one God. They believe that the one God exists in three ‘Persons’, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

The reader needs to know in advance that I agree with what he says here about believing in the Trinity.

Do they belong in the same corner? The axis of the question is dichotomy.

Well, Muslims are also monotheistic. And they are so basically in the same way as Jews are. Would we say, though, that we share some overlap with the god of Islam in our Christian conception of God? Is there common ground between Allah and the Trinity? No Muslim careful of their doctrine would say so. And I would agree with them. Jews well-informed as to the doctrines of their religion, too, would deny a shared conception of God with a Christian.

As a Christian, I understand that the God of the Jews is not the God they think He is, His being "One" having the trinitarian characteristic revealed in Scripture that many of them would hotly deny. But a Jew's monotheism is, nonetheless, not at all like that to which a Christian subscribes. It seems a bit of a semantical game, then, to say Christians and Jews are both monotheistic and thus "belong in the same corner."

 

[Matthias]

Well, Muslims are also monotheistic. And they are so basically in the same way as Jews are. Would we say, though, that we share some overlap with the god of Islam in our Christian conception of God? Is there common ground between Allah and the Trinity? No Muslim careful of their doctrine would say so. And I would agree with them. Jews well-informed as to the doctrines of their religion, too, would deny a shared conception of God with a Christian.

As a Christian, I understand that the God of the Jews is not the God they think He is, His being "One" having the trinitarian characteristic revealed in Scripture that many of them would hotly deny. But a Jew's monotheism is, nonetheless, not at all like that to which a Christian subscribes. It seems a bit of a semantical game, then, to say Christians and Jews are both monotheistic and thus "belong in the same corner."

Welcome to the forum.

Your comment about Islam was going to be my follow-up question to @talons.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that you wouldn’t put the Trinity and Jewish monotheism in the same corner. I welcome you recording your response in the poll.

 

[PS95]

I may get hit hard for this- but What is a Christian?
In my mind-according to the scriptures and the Spirit of God in me
1.) First and Foremost-
A Christian believes wholeheartedly that Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE SON of God-who gave His sinless life willingly to pay for our sins.- There is absolutely no other way other than this forgiveness and washing of sins by the shed blood of our Lord.
Those who fully accept that Truth will receive LIFE.
That is what grace is- it is wholly undeserved, not by works of the law. It is the GIFT of God.
- Those who refuse that TRUTH will receive the payment for their sin which is DEATH. -

Once we believe the Truth is in Jesus we are "saved"- our lives will begin to change- we are growing - this is God working in us. This rate of growth can vary for each of us. It is NOT a set of man's rules.
It is an inner work of God our Father by His Spirit/Christ's Spirit/Holy Spirit who lives in us. Our God is ONE. His Spirit helps us and guides and comforts and teaches us. You have been born again. You must be born again. You will begin to bear fruits of the Spirit. We take no credit for any of this- It is the work of God. He gives us a new heart and we want to do all things that are pleasing to the Lord. We died with Christ and were buried with Him in baptism and are acquitted of sins and we will live with Him.
Does that mean we are free to go live in sins? Of course not. We died to sin. Why would we want to live in it? Again- this is Christ in us. God is love. When we see Jesus we see YHWH. Jesus is the only way to YHWH.

Of course there are a few other things such as the desire to partake in Communion to proclaim the death of our Lord til he comes. We live now for the glory of God.
I am listing the basic faith Matt- Are you my brother in the faith, Matt? You decide.

 

[Matthias]

I may get hit hard for this- but What is a Christian?
In my mind-according to the scriptures and the Spirit of God in me
1.) First and Foremost-
A Christian believes wholeheartedly that Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE SON of God-who gave His sinless life willingly to pay for our sins.- There is absolutely no other way other than this forgiveness and washing of sins by the shed blood of our Lord.
Those who fully accept that Truth will receive LIFE.
That is what grace is- it is wholly undeserved, not by works of the law. It is the GIFT of God.
- Those who refuse that TRUTH will receive the payment for their sin which is DEATH. -

Once we believe the Truth is in Jesus we are "saved"- our lives will begin to change- we are growing - this is God working in us. This rate of growth can vary for each of us. It is NOT a set of man's rules.
It is an inner work of God our Father by His Spirit/Christ's Spirit/Holy Spirit who lives in us. Our God is ONE. His Spirit helps us and guides and comforts and teaches us. You have been born again. You must be born again. You will begin to bear fruits of the Spirit. We take no credit for any of this- It is the work of God. He gives us a new heart and we want to do all things that are pleasing to the Lord. We died with Christ and were buried with Him in baptism and are acquitted of sins and we will live with Him.
Does that mean we are free to go live in sins? Of course not. We died to sin. Why would we want to live in it? Again- this is Christ in us. God is love. When we see Jesus we see YHWH. Jesus is the only way to YHWH.

Of course there are a few other things such as the desire to partake in Communion to proclaim the death of our Lord til he comes. We live now for the glory of God.
I am listing the basic faith Matt- Are you my brother in the faith, Matt? You decide.

Going strictly and solely by what you wrote in this post, yes. You stated my faith impeccably.

 

[PS95]

Going strictly and solely by what you wrote in this post, yes. You stated my faith impeccably.

Amen. Which is why I call you my brother.

 

[Matthias]

Amen. Which is why I call you my brother.

It’s when you (or anyone else) go beyond that primitive Christian faith where we part company.

 

[PS95]

It’s when you (or anyone else) go beyond that where we part company.

And, I'm sure there are other things we agree on as well. Those other things that you speak of ,so far as I can see- do not change a thing that I wrote which is how I gage it. And many other Christians do as well, Matt. Some don't and that's on them.
If you continually want to bring up where we differ instead of focusing on where we agree, I see that as being divisive. Is it possible to fully accept all that I wrote and not be a believer? That's the question I think.
I don't think so. The fruits is how we can tell, huh? I never want to deem you as an unbeliever if Christ lives in you. That's actually a terrifying thought for me.

 

[Matthias]

And, I'm sure there are other things we agree on as well. Those other things that you speak of ,so far as I can see- do not change a thing that I wrote which is how I gage it. And many other Christians do as well, Matt. Some don't and that's on them.

The elephant in the room is the Trinity, which isn’t my God.

If you continually want to bring up where we differ instead of focusing on where we agree, I see that as being divisive. Is it possible to fully accept all that I wrote and not be a believer? That's the question I think.

The church soon departed from Jewish monotheism and gradually became trinitarian. If we’re looking for the source of division, we‘ll find it in church history. Jewish monotheists aren’t the ones who moved away from the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism, destroyed the Jewish dogma and anathematized it.

I don't think so. The fruits is how we can tell, huh? I never want to deem you as an unbeliever if Christ lives in you. That's actually a terrifying thought for me.

Jewish monotheism was, is, and always will be exclusive. It‘s open to Jew and gentile alike, but it isn’t open to other theologies.

The choice in scripture is between Jewish monotheism and idolatry. As a Jewish monotheist, what am I to do with that?

While the creeds of trinitarianism anathematize Jewish monotheists / me, I don’t anathematize trinitarians in return. (Many Jewish monotheists do.) Not all trinitarians anathematize Jewish monotheists who believe Jesus is the Messiah. They treat me as they would treat Jesus himself. They are the exception. What am I to do with that?

On the whole, I’m treated by zealous trinitarians as an unbeliever, a false teacher, deceived and a deceiver, destined to be thrown in the lake of fire. You’ve seen it yourself on this forum.

I’m fully persuaded that Jewish monotheism is the way. Nothing trinitarians have said, so far, has persuaded me that it isn’t.

It isn’t what zealous trinitarians say about me that causes me any concern. It’s what those who are able and willing to compromise with trinitarianism that does.

 

[PS95]

The elephant in the room is the Trinity, which isn’t my God.

It's your elephant. I've told you that I see a tri-unity. I've told you I don't accept all of the creed language. Many Christians don't and we don't break bread over it. Many many Christians don't even try to understand it. They see Father Son Holy Spirit + John 1:1 and that's enough. Trinity is really only a big thing on the internet. People love to go at it. Christians in person do not sit around and discuss the trinity. It's just not what it's about! There is a way of life and a deep love for God because He first loved us that is what it's about. You are stuck on it Matt which confuses me. I have never thought that a Christian needs to accept the trinity creed to be a Christian. I've told you what a Christian is to me. I'm not alone there.

The church soon departed from Jewish monotheism and gradually became trinitarian. If we’re looking for the source of division, we‘ll find it in church history. Jewish monotheists aren’t the ones who moved away from the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism, destroyed the Jewish dogma and anathematized it.
Jewish monotheism was, is, and always will be exclusive. It‘s open to Jew and gentile alike, but it isn’t open to other theologies.

Christianity is also exclusive. I included you in it. If you denied Jesus as God in the flesh and refused to worship our Messiah I would not have.

The choice in scripture is between Jewish monotheism and idolatry. As a Jewish monotheist, what am I to do with that?

Idolatry. ... What you do with that is what you choose to. A JW would call you an idolater for worshiping God's son. They see a mutually exclusive God who wants all of the glory for Himself and His Son as a creature being unfit for worship. If you did that I would not embrace you as a brother.

While the creeds of trinitarianism anathematize Jewish monotheists / me, I don’t anathematize trinitarians in return. (Many Jewish monotheists do.)

Ditto.

Not all trinitarians anathematize Jewish monotheists who believe Jesus is the Messiah. They treat me as they would treat Jesus himself. They are the exception. What am I to do with that?

Love us back is all. We are brothers in Christ.
I don't honor creeds!
Those who won't extend a hand of fellowship in love towards you may not be saved. I don't know. I think maybe many have had the creed beat into their heads since childhood and see it that way- that's a guess. I don't know.
Like I've said I don't know may like that. I have never been in a church yet that speaks about the trinity much. They speak about God and His Son our Lord and the Spirit of God who lives in us. They speak about what love God has shown us and encourage us in our daily walk. Maybe some do- idk I have never seen that.

On the whole, I’m treated by zealous trinitarians as an unbeliever, a false teacher, deceived and a deceiver, destined to be thrown in the lake of fire. You’ve seen it yourself on this forum.

I haven't see that but I believe you. I rarely read a whole thread. I know what that's like though. I've been called the son of satan by my own family and jws here- for accepting Christ as my only Savior for forgiveness of my sins. Yet, they feel "persecuted"..
Just know that we have one judge.

I’m fully persuaded that Jewish monotheism is the way. Nothing trinitarians have said, so far, has persuaded me that it isn’t.

I understand that. I don't fully understand what you believe. I know you have a different take on John's prologue. What is it about that prologue? I just see it says what it says. I had to accept what it says- like it or not.
Do I think it's crucial to understand everything perfectly? No. I know I don't. Some things just aren't as important as the end result. If God accepted me in Christ and He accepted you in Christ why would I reject you? Isn't that the same as rejecting Him?

It isn’t what zealous trinitarians say about me that causes me any concern. It’s what those who are able and willing to compromise with trinitarianism that does.

If I concern you that's because you have a different definition of what a Christian is than I have written.
How can I deny the Spirit of God in another? I can't.
It takes discernment perhaps and I have prayed for that. Could be why. I don't know for sure.

Remember Matt, I was not raised in a Christian church- I was raised in a Christ-less cult. I came to Christ in my 30's. Alone just me and God.
There was no creed. I never read it. I hated the trinity since Jws do. But my problem was I was not allowed to have my sins forgiven by Jesus blood- that was not taught. I really wanted to know this Jesus but I was not allowed to. He is really only for their "elect" class. I had to be their "other sheep" who didn't get to be born anew.
(JWs who say otherwise are not being honest. I just verified that again with my 40 yr JW sister the other day who is a full time pioneer.- dying is how they pay for their sins. She flat out said even Hitler will be raised sinless because he died.)

When I prayed back then I ask Jehovah if it would be ok if I could just talk to His son for a minute. I was shaking and scared that he would deem me an idolater and kill me. 30 yrs of that teaching is hard to shake. After praying I let it go and found myself reading Romans and Ephesians and comprehending most of it.
I was in total shock. I never knew any of that. JWs don't teach any of that. I could not believe my eyes. I flat out cried at Matthew 11. I knew my prayers were answered. I got on my knees and thanked my Lord for dying for my sins, and asked Him to help me live right. There is nothing like that. Nothing. His love covered over me in a warm embrace. It's been many years since that day and it's been very hard at times, but I wouldn't change a thing. I did not accept a single thing about any trinity, but I wanted my sins covered and I wanted to say thank you to Jesus. That's when I understood that we love because He first loved us.

I am far beyond denominational bickering. I hate it. I look at what counts. I wrote to you what counts. I believe true Christians are in many denominations, and it's not about that. It is within us that counts. Is Christ in you- that's the test.

Can there be Christians in some of the cults? I don't think so. How if they deny Christ?
I don't see Christ in JW family. I see self-righteousness, works, a false gospel, and finger pointing at all others. They are the only true church you know..
I will reject anyone else who makes that claim too.
It's not about the true church building. It is the temple of His body and we are spread out all over the globe. it is an individual thing. Very exclusive- yes. He knows who are His and we hear His voice. I did nothing to deserve to be a child of God. It's all about Him.

I hope you can make sense out of that. I don't demand that you accept me as a brother. It's ok. You are where you are in your walk and maybe one day we will meet. Just know my arms are open.

 

[Matthias]

It's your elephant. I've told you that I see a tri-unity. I've told you I don't accept all of the creed language. Many Christians don't and we don't break bread over it. Many many Christians don't even try to understand it. They see Father Son Holy Spirit + John 1:1 and that's enough. Trinity is really only a big thing on the internet. People love to go at it. Christians in person do not sit around and discuss the trinity. It's just not what it's about! There is a way of life and a deep love for God because He first loved us that is what it's about. You are stuck on it Matt which confuses me. I have never thought that a Christian needs to accept the trinity creed to be a Christian. I've told you what a Christian is to me. I'm not alone there.

Christianity is also exclusive. I included you in it. If you denied Jesus as God in the flesh and refused to worship our Messiah I would not have.

Idolatry. ... What you do with that is what you choose to. A JW would call you an idolater for worshiping God's son. They see a mutually exclusive God who wants all of the glory for Himself and His Son as a creature being unfit for worship. If you did that I would not embrace you as a brother.

Ditto.

Love us back is all. We are brothers in Christ.
I don't honor creeds!
Those who won't extend a hand of fellowship in love towards you may not be saved. I don't know. I think maybe many have had the creed beat into their heads since childhood and see it that way- that's a guess. I don't know.
Like I've said I don't know may like that. I have never been in a church yet that speaks about the trinity much. They speak about God and His Son our Lord and the Spirit of God who lives in us. They speak about what love God has shown us and encourage us in our daily walk. Maybe some do- idk I have never seen that.

I haven't see that but I believe you. I rarely read a whole thread. I know what that's like though. I've been called the son of satan by my own family and jws here- for accepting Christ as my only Savior for forgiveness of my sins. Yet, they feel "persecuted"..
Just know that we have one judge.

I understand that. I don't fully understand what you believe. I know you have a different take on John's prologue. What is it about that prologue? I just see it says what it says. I had to accept what it says- like it or not.
Do I think it's crucial to understand everything perfectly? No. I know I don't. Some things just aren't as important as the end result. If God accepted me in Christ and He accepted you in Christ why would I reject you? Isn't that the same as rejecting Him?

If I concern you that's because you have a different definition of what a Christian is than I have written.
How can I deny the Spirit of God in another? I can't.
It takes discernment perhaps and I have prayed for that. Could be why. I don't know for sure.

Remember Matt, I was not raised in a Christian church- I was raised in a Christ-less cult. I came to Christ in my 30's. Alone just me and God.
There was no creed. I never read it. I hated the trinity since Jws do. But my problem was I was not allowed to have my sins forgiven by Jesus blood- that was not taught. I really wanted to know this Jesus but I was not allowed to. He is really only for their "elect" class. I had to be their "other sheep" who didn't get to be born anew.
(JWs who say otherwise are not being honest. I just verified that again with my 40 yr JW sister the other day who is a full time pioneer.- dying is how they pay for their sins. She flat out said even Hitler will be raised sinless because he died.)

When I prayed back then I ask Jehovah if it would be ok if I could just talk to His son for a minute. I was shaking and scared that he would deem me an idolater and kill me. 30 yrs of that teaching is hard to shake. After praying I let it go and found myself reading Romans and Ephesians and comprehending most of it.
I was in total shock. I never knew any of that. JWs don't teach any of that. I could not believe my eyes. I flat out cried at Matthew 11. I knew my prayers were answered. I got on my knees and thanked my Lord for dying for my sins, and asked Him to help me live right. There is nothing like that. Nothing. His love covered over me in a warm embrace. It's been many years since that day and it's been very hard at times, but I wouldn't change a thing. I did not accept a single thing about any trinity, but I wanted my sins covered and I wanted to say thank you to Jesus. That's when I understood that we love because He first loved us.

I am far beyond denominational bickering. I hate it. I look at what counts. I wrote to you what counts. I believe true Christians are in many denominations, and it's not about that. It is within us that counts. Is Christ in you- that's the test.

Can there be Christians in some of the cults? I don't think so. How if they deny Christ?
I don't see Christ in JW family. I see self-righteousness, works, a false gospel, and finger pointing at all others. They are the only true church you know..
I will reject anyone else who makes that claim too.
It's not about the true church building. It is the temple of His body and we are spread out all over the globe. it is an individual thing. Very exclusive- yes. He knows who are His and we hear His voice. I did nothing to deserve to be a child of God. It's all about Him.

I hope you can make sense out of that. I don't demand that you accept me as a brother. It's ok. You are where you are in your walk and maybe one day we will meet. Just know my arms are open.

“Trinity is really only a big thing on the internet.“

That doesn’t speak well for the Trinity. If I were a trinitarian pastor I would do whatever I could to change that.

For decades, I’ve publicly called for church history to be taught in all churches and privately in homes.

I’m not a trinitarian. (See what I did there?) I‘ll be content when no one ever speaks of the Trinity again. It has nothing to do with my faith and you don’t think it’s a salvation issue.

Would you welcome a “sheep stealer” into your corner?