The Creation of the Universe

[rockytopva]

My account...

I believe that the creation occurred 15 billion years after the fall of Lucifer. Let me break this one down...

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

Space and mass - Nothing else

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2

Space and mass - Nothing else
Waters - The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is obscured by dark clouds. As this center can be observed with infrared light I can only assume this as H2O water. If it were dust particles could it be seen with infrared God may have included dust particles in his definition of waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

As m = E/c2 so the mass dissociates into energy and light flowing out as plasma from a point of origins forming into what elements the Father willed it to.

As far as the heavens expanding out...

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens... - Isaiah 45:12

Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; - Isaiah 42:5

To stretch out is interpreted from the Hebrew word, shalach, which I have as interpreted...

-to send
-to stretch out, extend, direct
-to send away
-to let loose
-to send off or away or out or forth, dismiss, give over, cast out
-to let go, set free

So I take it as a big boom with the words 'let there be light' and afterwords the universe expanding out from a point of origin.

*** I believe that 15 billion years transpired between Genesis 1:3-4***

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. - Genesis 1:4

Keep in mind that the first day has not occurred yet. By dividing the light from the darkness the earth is put in orbit around the sun, dividing the light from the darkness.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:5

Now we are ready for the first day and the seven day creation story... 15 billion years from the time that God said, "Let there be light!"

 

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Rocky.

My account...

I believe that the creation occurred 15 billion years after the fall of Lucifer. Let me break this one down...

*** I believe that 15 billion years transpired between Genesis 1:3-4***

I could do the same thing you did my friend...
I believe the tooth fairy created the Earth, cause God was tired.

See how that works?
If we want to understand God's word, we only need to read it. We do not need to add to it in order for it to fit in with our personal beliefs.

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

I do not see any gap between 3 and 4. If we follow along reading Genesis the way God describes it, then we have to understand that God created different "elements" in separate 24 hour periods.
So, in Gen 3, God speaks light into existence, but that particular light was not caused by a star, because God had not created our star at that point. So, the light comes from God Himself, just as it does in Revelation 22, where there is no need of a star/sun, because light comes straight from God. The light God created in this verse, most likely also refers to the order of the earth - it's spin, and procession etc. But that part is pure conjecture on my part. The fact is that God created light which enveloped the earth, period.

Now, we cannot place billions of years between days 3 and 4, only to go back to regular 24 hour days for 1 and 2 and 4 and 5 and 5 and 6 and 6 and 7..it is not consistent.
If God waited billions of years between 3 and 4, all the things He created which were plants, herbs, etc., would all die! Millions of years with no sun to create photosynthesis, and provide vitamins


Have a look at the following ( at bottom, listing each day), and ask yourself if you believe it means literal 24 hour days, as we have to this day. Or, do you believe you see millions, or billions of years here.
You are proposing something quite impossible - you believe all verses describing "day and night - first day - second day etc.) are literal 24 hour days, except between 3 and 4...that is bizarre.

John
And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And the evening and the morning were the third day
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day

 

[Forsakenone]

I believe that the creation occurred 15 billion years after the fall of Lucifer. Let me break this one down...

While it estimated that the Universe originated 13.7 billion years ago, the Big Bang model is based upon the existence of a 'primordial atom' from which all space, matter, energy and time erupted out of and proceed forth. So if you plan to share your belief before those who subscribe to 'scientism - then expect to take fire on the point that 13.7 only represents the age of the universe from the time of the big bang and doesn't deal with the age of the 'primordial atom' or how it originated.

However in regards to the scriptures, are you saying that Lucifer was cast out of heaven before the universe was created?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1 Space and mass - Nothing else

Now did God create the sun, moon and Earth in the beginning, or just space and mass? The reason I ask is while the universe is believed to be 13.7 million years old, the earth and moon and sun where formed 8 billions years after the big bang and not during the time of its expanse. Thus they hold the earth is 5 billion years old.

How do reconcile that it is written Revelations 13:8, "...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." So do you consider the Universe is thethe interpretation for the meaning of the term 'world', being that the "heaven and earth" created in the beginnning?

I could do the same thing you did my friend...
I believe the tooth fairy created the Earth, cause God was tired.

See how that works?
If we want to understand God's word, we only need to read it. We do not need to add to it in order for it to fit in with our personal beliefs.


So, in Gen 3, God speaks light into existence, but that particular light was not caused by a star, because God had not created our star at that point. So, the light comes from God Himself, just as it does in Revelation 22, where there is no need of a star/sun, because light comes straight from God. The light God created in this verse, most likely also refers to the order of the earth - it's spin, and procession etc. But that part is pure conjecture on my part. The fact is that God created light which enveloped the earth, period.

So the light comes from God Himself? In consideration of the 2nd verse of Genesis wherein it is written, " darkness that was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the waters", it appears to me that interpretation would be skating on thin ice since the darkness was already present before the illumination, which according to 3rd and 4th verses continue:

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.​

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.​

​

look at the following ( at bottom, listing each day), and ask yourself if you believe it means literal 24 hour days, as we have to this day. Or, do you believe you see millions, or billions of years here.
You are proposing something quite impossible - you believe all verses describing "day and night - first day - second day etc.) are literal 24 hour days, except between 3 and 4...that is bizarre.

If not mistaken, it is written in Mark 9:23 that Jesus that if thou can believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. So as believer you can't deny that with God all things are possible; so if one day with the LORD is as a thousand years written in 2 Peter 3:8 and a thousand years as one day. But those of faith understand that all things are not possible with God, so therefore as written in John 11:9-10
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

If God waited billions of years between 3 and 4, all the things He created which were plants, herbs, etc., would all die! Millions of years with no sun to create photosynthesis, and provide vitamins

Would they survive a thousand years?

 

[zeke25]

The primordial atom is a new one on me. How long ago did they make that one up? Last week? The way the theory goes is that "first there was nothing, and then it blew up." That's hilarious.

Once I had nothing then I lost it. Boy am I bummed out, now I have twice as much of nothing than I had before. Poor, poor, pitiful me.

As our ability to look at and explore things smaller and smaller new conclusions and theories are being formed. In layman's terms it means that the distinction between matter and energy becomes blurred. The building blocks of the atom and parts of the atom are made up of energy and not matter. Hebrews 11:3 KJV, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Anyway, the reason each day of creation ends with "then there was evening, then there was morning" is to refute any techie from coming along and trying to second guess God and His creation. Then there was evening and then there was morning is written to assure us that God used literal 24 hour (give or take a few minutes or seconds) days and not epochs of time.

 

[clark thompson]

you go outside the bible you can come up with anything.

 

[rockytopva]

I have stayed within scripture if you bother to read the full op. Keep in mind that time as we know it was not a concept before Genesis 1:4. As God is eternal 15 billion years is no big deal to him.

 

[Madad21]

Great another petrie dish for Christian animosity.
This one will yeild about 10 pages of derision and edify nothing.
Yippie!

Hey after this lets explain biologically how Jesus healed people and raised the dead.

Job 38:1-7
Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Isaiah 55:9
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

[rockytopva]

This was not intended to stir up such bad spirits.

 

[Madad21]

I know, :)

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that the creation occurred 15 billion years after the fall of Lucifer. Let me break this one down...

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

Space and mass - Nothing else

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2

Space and mass - Nothing else
Waters - The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is obscured by dark clouds. As this center can be observed with infrared light I can only assume this as H2O water. If it were dust particles could it be seen with infrared

God may have included dust particles in his definition of waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

As m = E/c2 so the mass dissociates into energy and light flowing out as plasma from a point of origins forming into what elements the Father willed it to.

*** I believe that 15 billion years transpired between Genesis 1:3-4***

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. - Genesis 1:4

Keep in mind that the first day has not occurred yet. By dividing the light from the darkness the earth is put in orbit around the sun, dividing the light from the darkness.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:5

Now we are ready for the first day and the seven day creation story... 15 billion years from the time that God said, "Let there be light!" Now for Genesis 1:6-8

--------------------------------------------

From there we have three earth ages...

1. The first earth age
2. The middle ages
3.The seven church ages

The first earth age...

The seven church ages...

--------------------------------------------

As seven is a number of perfection, so God is going to allow the Earth to exist 6,000 years, with about a 400 year extension, this I take as days of grace. This will be followed by a millennial of peace when Lucifer will be vanished for a thousand years from the planet Earth.

When Lucifer is loosed he will try one more time to instigate a rebellion in which he will loose.

--------------------------------------------

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

As m = E/c2 so the elements will disassociate back into the energy and light from whence they were created and return back to God. God then will use that energy to recreate a new heaven and earth...


But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. - 1 Peter 4:13

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: - 1 Peter 5:1

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. - Romans 8:18

So God has not revealed what he is going to do with that enormous amount of energy and light that will return to him through the disassociation of the universe. But I do believe that it will be glorious, and that we saints of God who have weathered the trials of this Earth will be glad on our arrival.

 

[Suhar]

*** I believe that 15 billion years transpired between Genesis 1:3-4***

Word of God says that Earth is only few thousands of years old. Then you say: "He did not really mean that!"

That makes you some kind of "supergod" who knows better then God what He meant!

Only "supergod" can know where limits of God's power are. Only somebody greater then God can know His limits (there are none by the way).

If God said SIX DAYS then I believe it! Simple as that!

 

[River Jordan]

This was not intended to stir up such bad spirits.

But all you have to do is express a non-fundamentalist way of reading scripture and the "bad spirits" soon follow. Fundies like things black/white, simple, and authoritatively clear. Anything outside of that model is immediately rejected and attacked without consideration.

 

[Madad21]

But all you have to do is express a non-fundamentalist way of reading scripture and the "bad spirits" soon follow. Fundies like things black/white, simple, and authoritatively clear. Anything outside of that model is immediately rejected and attacked without consideration.

Yes you are right!

The Bible is the authoritative word of God, but I dont like things black and white then life would be boring, nor is Gods word simple, it takes discerning to understand the things of God that come through the Spirit. I only reject things the Bible rejects, how can we apply the Bible to our lives if we reject what the Bible tells us?
I give all things consideration, just because I follow Jesus doesn't make me brain dead.

Much blessings to you River :)

 

[River Jordan]

I've always wondered, what is the literal reading of this?

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[Madad21]

I've always wondered, what is the literal reading of this?

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Im bored so I'll have a crack at this, but I’ll be the first to admit that I am no by no means a creation expert, So please forgive me as I butcher this real good, but at least you’ll have a good laugh watching me try.

And the earth was without form, and void;
Well I guess this means Just a large rock with nothing on it.

and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Floating in space?

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
“moved” indicates a brooding like getting ready, the“Waters” by which all life springs forth.
through the power of the Spirit this seems to suggest a preparation for what is to follow, and what immediately follows is the 6 day account of creation.

Ok you can laugh now if you havent already started :wub:

 

[Enquirer]

@ Rockytopva ...

You state that;

"Waters - The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is obscured by dark clouds. As this center can be observed with infrared light I can only
assume this as H2O water. If it were dust particles could it be seen with infrared God may have included dust particles in his definition of waters."

Let's look at Gen 1:2 again and see whether or not your interpretation "holds water", pardon the pun.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (tehom). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:2 KJV

The word "deep" (Hebrew - תְּהוֹם, transliteration - tehom) is in fact water, this same word is used in Gen 7:11,

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the
great deep (tehom) burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

The word "tehom/deep" is used in both verses and is therefore clear that ... the "deep" in Gen 1:2 over which was darkness, is the same
"deep" in Gen 7:11, from which the fountains came.
And both of these verses are talking about the earth where the "deep" was.


This is not "The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is obscured by dark clouds. As this center can be observed with infrared light I can only
assume this as H2O water. If it were dust particles could it be seen with infrared God may have included dust particles in his definition of waters."

 

[River Jordan]

Im bored so I'll have a crack at this, but I’ll be the first to admit that I am no by no means a creation expert, So please forgive me as I butcher this real good, but at least you’ll have a good laugh watching me try.

And the earth was without form, and void;
Well I guess this means Just a large rock with nothing on it.

and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Floating in space?

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
“moved” indicates a brooding like getting ready, the“Waters” by which all life springs forth.
through the power of the Spirit this seems to suggest a preparation for what is to follow, and what immediately follows is the 6 day account of creation.

Ok you can laugh now if you havent already started :wub:

Nah, no laughing. I think you did just fine.

To me, that passage is a good indication of the non-literal nature of the account. If God's intent was "I'm going to describe in clear, unambiguous terms exactly how I created everything", then IMO that's an odd way to start off. Plus, we throw in Genesis 1:27 and it seems clear to me that this was never meant to be read like a newspaper description of an event.

 

[Madad21]

Nah, no laughing. I think you did just fine.

To me, that passage is a good indication of the non-literal nature of the account. If God's intent was "I'm going to describe in clear, unambiguous terms exactly how I created everything", then IMO that's an odd way to start off. Plus, we throw in Genesis 1:27 and it seems clear to me that this was never meant to be read like a newspaper description of an event.

True I think I understand where your coming from, I mean you look at revelation, to be honest I personally have as much trouble understanding the end of the world as I do the beginning.
I actually dont rule out some of the creation theory's, I think they all make interesting cases in there own way. So to be honest they are both subjects I try to avoid until God wants me to start taking an interest and then I will start to feel a prompting in my heart to get stuck in.

And just as Im thinking of you this Scripture has been given to me concerning Nathanael

John 1:43-51
The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

you certainly have all Gods promises which are unchanging.
The world changes but not Gods promises to River.

I pray you have peace in your spirit today and joy in the hope and the light that you carry.
God bless you

 

[River Jordan]

True I think I understand where your coming from, I mean you look at revelation, to be honest I personally have as much trouble understanding the end of the world as I do the beginning.
I actually dont rule out some of the creation theory's, I think they all make interesting cases in there own way. So to be honest they are both subjects I try to avoid until God wants me to start taking an interest and then I will start to feel a prompting in my heart to get stuck in.

I always figured that since I love God and His creation so much, why not spend my time exploring and studying it? :)

And just as Im thinking of you this Scripture has been given to me concerning Nathanael

John 1:43-51
The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

you certainly have all Gods promises which are unchanging.
The world changes but not Gods promises to River.

I pray you have peace in your spirit today and joy in the hope and the light that you carry.
God bless you

Thanks MD! God bless you too.

 

[Madad21]

I always figured that since I love God and His creation so much, why not spend my time exploring and studying it? :)

Excellent, the right person for the job! :lol: