The Creation of the Universe

[StanJ]

I don't recall any scripture that describes God creating everything one way, but making it appear to have been created another way.


And...? Are you going to use "Scientists don't know everything about the universe" as an excuse to wave away everything from science?


I don't understand what "That's ONE theory" has to do with what I posted.

That's because he doesn't, you are just alleging He did.

Not quite the same thing now is it? If there's empirical evidence about anything in science, I have no problem with it...this area is NOT one of those.

It is ONE theory...I don't know how else you want me to word it?

 

[River Jordan]

That's because he doesn't, you are just alleging He did.

Um...you're the one arguing for "apparent age of the universe" even though there's nothing in scripture to suggest such a thing.

Not quite the same thing now is it? If there's empirical evidence about anything in science, I have no problem with it...this area is NOT one of those.

What area are you talking about?

It is ONE theory...I don't know how else you want me to word it?

What is "one theory"?

 

[StanJ]

Um...you're the one arguing for "apparent age of the universe" even though there's nothing in scripture to suggest such a thing.

What area are you talking about?


What is "one theory"?

No, I'm saying God made it that way, FULLY MATURE, FULLY DEVELOPED. If that means 13 billion years old or 20 years old then that is what it is.
Just because men can't tell the difference or know the difference doesn't make God a deceiver. This is a straw man argument used for people who want to support that the universe is actually that old.

Exactly what I said.

What you stated...are you losing track or just trying to obfuscate?

 

[River Jordan]

No, I'm saying God made it that way, FULLY MATURE, FULLY DEVELOPED. If that means 13 billion years old or 20 years old then that is what it is.
Just because men can't tell the difference or know the difference doesn't make God a deceiver. This is a straw man argument used for people who want to support that the universe is actually that old.

If God made the universe look like it was 13 billion years old when in actuality it is only 6,000 years old, that's being deliberately deceitful. God doesn't do that.

Exactly what I said.

What you stated...are you losing track or just trying to obfuscate?

Sorry bud, but you're not making any sense at all.

 

[StanJ]

If God made the universe look like it was 13 billion years old when in actuality it is only 6,000 years old, that's being deliberately deceitful. God doesn't do that.


Sorry bud, but you're not making any sense at all.

Then if that's your view of God I'll leave you to it....obviously you don't get it.

 

[Madad21]

"Human need is not a teacher. Humans need a Savior. "-written by Bruce Shelley, the dilution of a vicious circle,

 

[Webers_Home]

-
I enjoy watching scientific documentaries on NetFlix because from them I
gain a better understanding of God's handiwork. Here's what I mean.

Light has several meanings and applications in the Bible; but the light that
most people would like to know about is the energy that God created in the
very beginning; and I'll get to that.

†. Gen 1:1 . . In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That statement merely reveals the origin of the cosmos without going into
detail.

†. Gen 1:2a . . And the earth was formless and void,

That statement reveals the earth's condition prior to the creation of an
energy that would make it possible for its particles to coalesce into
something coherent. At that point in the earth's history, particles had no
mass because God had not yet created the laws of physics.

Curiously, scientists have not yet been able to figure out what gives particles
their mass. In point of fact, the multi-billion-dollar Large Hadron Collider was
constructed in the hope of finding a special particle called the Higgs Boson
(a.k.a. the God particle) because it is believed by some that the Higgs
particle "creates" a field that grants other particles their mass. But of course
the Higgs itself is a mystery. Its field is alleged to grant all other particles
their mass, but if true; then what gives the Higgs its power to create such a
field?

†. Gen 1:2b . . and darkness was over the surface of the deep

This particular "deep" I believe can be safely assumed to be the void; viz:
the seemingly infinite space housing the known universe.

†. Gen 1:2c . . and Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

The "waters" at this point in the earth's history weren't really the liquid
commonly used to float your boat, wash your face, and do your laundry. It's
just a "place-holder" name; viz: a convenient label for the colossal soup of
freshly created particles that would eventually be utilized to construct the
universe's physical properties.

The Spirit's job, therefore, was as sort of a cattle wrangler circling the herd
and keeping all the various particles together so they didn't drift away and
get lost.

†. Gen 1:3 . . Then God said "Let there be light" and there was light.

In the April 2014 edition of Discover magazine, astrophysicist/cosmologist
Avi Loeb states that the Bible attributes the appearance of stars and galaxies
to the divine proclamation "Let there be light". Is Mr. Loeb's statement
correct? No; of course not. God created the light on the very first day of
creation; while glowing celestial objects weren't created until the fourth day.

Illumination as we commonly know it is a complicated source of energy. It is
believed to exist as a particle called a photon, and it is also believed that
those photons propagate in the form of a wave; which the human eye
perceives as a beam. But I don't think we're looking at common illumination
in Gen 1:3.

Here we have this colossal soup of particles; none of which as yet have
mass. Seeing as how light can be construed as law (Pro 6:23) then it's
reasonable to believe that the light of Gen 1:3 refers to the laws of physics;
without which it would have been impossible for the creator to transform the
formless earth of Gen 1:2 into a coherent structure. Within that context,
light can be thought of as the power to bring order to chaos; and one of the
very important laws of physics is the law of gravity.

Take away gravity and the entire universe would fly apart in a moment;
especially seeing as how there is a powerful, as yet unknown force at work
increasing the volume of the universe; which gives rise to the term "the
expanding universe" and that expansion is not occurring at a steady velocity,
but is increasing every second that goes by. For example: let's assume the
universe was expanding at 50 meters per second at 6:am this morning. Well
by noon it might be expanding at 55 meters per second. In other words: the
expansion is picking up speed and nobody as yet knows why because
common sense tells us that gravity should be steadily compacting the
universe; but instead the universe is blowing up like a balloon. Bottom line
is: if there was no gravity, the expansion would get out of control like a
runaway Maserati with its gas pedal stuck to the floorboards.

Anyway: the interesting thing about the laws of physics is that they have not
always existed. No; they are created laws-- created as a companion to the
created cosmos to regulate how it-- along with all of its forms of life, matter,
and energy --behaves.

An interesting aspect to creation's light is that according to 2Cor 4:6, it
wasn't introduced into the cosmos from outside in order to dispel the
darkness and brighten things up a bit; but rather, it radiated out of the
cosmos from inside; from itself; strongly suggesting that the cosmos'
particles had no energy of their own when God first made them; which
explains why the earth was formless and void in the beginning. "formless
and void" meaning that though all the earth's particles existed; they lacked
the necessary energy to come together. Everything around us, including our
very own selves, is held together by a mysterious force called atomic
attraction. Take that away and poof! --the molecular structure of your
entire being would be gone in less than sixty seconds.

In my opinion; science isn't an enemy of religion. I sincerely believe, as did
Galileo, that science and religion are allies-- two different languages telling
the same story. There are well-meaning folk who insist we keep science out
of the first chapter of Genesis. I truly believe that is an error because though
the cosmos has a supernatural origin, it is not a supernatural cosmos; rather,
it is a very natural cosmos and the creation story makes better sense, at least
to me anyway, when it's approached from that angle.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Brother James]

The Bible is silent on how much time passed betwen "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..." and the next verse. On what basis can we insist that only an instant, or a minute, or an hour passed between that verse and the next verse of Genesis? Is there any rational reason why 13 billion years could not pass between the creation of the formless matter that was the earth and God's acts to organize the earth into a state that supported life? Why would that be inconsistent with what Genesis 1:1 tells us?

 

[StanJ]

The Bible is silent on how much time passed betwen "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..." and the next verse. On what basis can we insist that only an instant, or a minute, or an hour passed between that verse and the next verse of Genesis? Is there any rational reason why 13 billion years could not pass between the creation of the formless matter that was the earth and God's acts to organize the earth into a state that supported life? Why would that be inconsistent with what Genesis 1:1 tells us?

Not really, but you can do your own reading up on it here; http://www.icr.org/article/why-gap-theory-wont-work/

 

[Webers_Home]

The Bible is silent on how much time passed betwen "In the beginning,
God created the heavens and the earth..." and the next verse.

The first verse merely reveals the origin of the cosmos without going into
detail; sort of like a children's story that begins with "Once upon a time".

But before one even begins to interpret the time elements involved in the
creation story; it's very important to be aware that the Hebrew word for
"day" is ambiguous. For example; at Gen 2:4, yowm encompasses the
entire creation endeavor from start to finish.

It's all too easy to fall into the error of assuming that the phrase "evening and
morning" indicates a 24-hour calendar day; but God began marking off His
creation days with evenings and mornings before the sun even existed; so I
think it's pretty safe to rule the sun out as a time-keeping mechanism
relative to the days of creation.

According to Gen 1:24-31, God created humans and all land animals on the
sixth day; which has to include dinosaurs because on no other day did God
create land animals but the sixth. Hard core Bible thumpers insist the days
of creation were 24-hour calendar days in length; but the sciences have
easily proven that the Jurassic era was over and done several millions of
years prior to the entrance of truly human life.

So then, in my estimation, the days of creation should be taken to represent
epochs of indeterminable length rather than 24-hour calendar days.

In addition: I suggest that the expression "evening and morning" is simply a
place-card label; viz: a convenient way to indicate the simultaneous wrap of
one epoch and the beginning of another.

The Bible doesn't say right from the outset that creation's six days were 24
hour calendar events; but most of us assume the terms evening and
morning insist upon it; when even those terms are ambiguous. For example;
when Jesus was here, a day consisted of only 12 hours rather than 24 (John
11:9) which means that when he was here, evening consisted of the hours
between high noon and sundown, while morning consisted of the hours
between sunrise and high noon. Why only daylight hours? Because at Gen
1:3-5 God decreed "day" as a time of light, and "night" He decreed as a time
of darkness.

This has been a chronic problem for just about everybody who takes Genesis
seriously. We assume the "days" of creation consisted of twenty-four hours
apiece; so we end up stumped when trying to figure out how to cope with
the 4.5 billion-year age of the earth, and factor in the various eras, e.g.
Triassic, Jurassic, Mesozoic, Cenozoic, Cretaceous, etc, plus the ice ages and
the mass extinction events. It just never seems to occur to us that it might
be okay in some cases to go ahead and think outside the box. When we do
that-- when we allow ourselves to think outside the box --that's when we
begin to really appreciate the contributions science has made towards
providing modern men a window into the Earth's amazing past.

In my opinion, the so-called Gap Theory is a chicken's exit. It's better to
come to grips with the Biblical record as-is and figure out how God did it
according to science rather than according to theory and sophistry.

Buen Camino
/

 

[StanJ]

Moses starts with an all encompassing synopsis in Gen 1:1...then he breaks down creation into more detail from 1:2 to 2:3, then more details about that in 2:4 to 2:25, then he picks up the chronological order of mankind AFTER the creation in 3:1 onwards.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OP. not saying that you're right or wrong, but I disagree with a few or your assessment concering the creation account, as well as some others poster also.

#1. I don't believe in a "DAY" creation as in a solar day as we know of as a 24hr period, nor do I certify a 15 billion year old planet either. for one thing the sun did not shine until day 4. so in order to have a 24hr solar day, A. the sun must be shinning, and B. the earth rotatiing. well since the sun didn't until day four, then that destroys any 24hr. creation DAY. and as for the 15 billion years of the earth age, not even the rocks know themselves.

#2. nor do I believe in any, "GAP theory". this has been debunked by scriptures. the First man Adam is clearly identified in the bible, and there was no human before him.

#3. nor do I believe in any world wide pre destruction before the first man, and some how God had to make the earth over. NO, that's a bunch of bologna.

#4. nor did any angel, including Satan fell from heaven before the first man was introduce onto this planet. leaving an estate, do not always mean position, it could also mean, circumstances, rank, condition, or a state of mind. and likewise, "habitation", beside it's general understanding, to hold, or, to keep.

#5. and the term, "Fallen", do not always mean a change of position, physically. the change can be, "concrete", but also, "abstract".

so when it comes to the creation account, we must be careful in our assessment of the scriptures.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Cooper]

The primordial atom is a new one on me. How long ago did they make that one up? Last week? The way the theory goes is that "first there was nothing, and then it blew up." That's hilarious.

Once I had nothing then I lost it. Boy am I bummed out, now I have twice as much of nothing than I had before. Poor, poor, pitiful me.

As our ability to look at and explore things smaller and smaller new conclusions and theories are being formed. In layman's terms it means that the distinction between matter and energy becomes blurred. The building blocks of the atom and parts of the atom are made up of energy and not matter. Hebrews 11:3 KJV, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Anyway, the reason each day of creation ends with "then there was evening, then there was morning" is to refute any techie from coming along and trying to second guess God and His creation. Then there was evening and then there was morning is written to assure us that God used literal 24 hour (give or take a few minutes or seconds) days and not epochs of time.

The words "and God saw it was good" indicate the end of one era and the beginning of another. Each era in the Bible is consistent with science. First, there was water, then land, fish, animals etc. The darkness on day four corresponds to when the dinosaurs and other mammals died. The word for day in the Bible is yome and it means a period of time, which is measured in millions, if not billions of years for the creation account, after which it becomes 24 hours.

 

[marksman]

My account...

I believe that the creation occurred 15 billion years after the fall of Lucifer. Let me break this one down...

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

Space and mass - Nothing else

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2

Space and mass - Nothing else
Waters - The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is obscured by dark clouds. As this center can be observed with infrared light I can only assume this as H2O water. If it were dust particles could it be seen with infrared God may have included dust particles in his definition of waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

As m = E/c2 so the mass dissociates into energy and light flowing out as plasma from a point of origins forming into what elements the Father willed it to.

As far as the heavens expanding out...

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens... - Isaiah 45:12

Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; - Isaiah 42:5

To stretch out is interpreted from the Hebrew word, shalach, which I have as interpreted...

-to send
-to stretch out, extend, direct
-to send away
-to let loose
-to send off or away or out or forth, dismiss, give over, cast out
-to let go, set free

So I take it as a big boom with the words 'let there be light' and afterwords the universe expanding out from a point of origin.

*** I believe that 15 billion years transpired between Genesis 1:3-4***

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. - Genesis 1:4

Keep in mind that the first day has not occurred yet. By dividing the light from the darkness the earth is put in orbit around the sun, dividing the light from the darkness.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:5

Now we are ready for the first day and the seven day creation story... 15 billion years from the time that God said, "Let there be light!"

Sorry but that is all speculation and interpretation of the man kind.

 

[marksman]

Jesus said:

Furthermore, and I have to re-find the quote, Jesus confirmed each day of creation was not a twenty-four hour period, rather epochs.

Speculation without any concrete evidence.

 

[Base12]

For what it's worth...

I made a video that goes into the Creation Account in great detail...

The biggest error that is made by those who interpret Genesis 1 is that the Universe we exist in now is vastly different than the one before the Fall.

I compare it to a CAD Model (Before the Fall) vs. a Manufactured Product (After the Fall).

Another analogy is a Video Game or Simulation compared to reality.

Anyone who attempts to view and interpret Genesis 1 through the lens of Space, Time, Matter, Physics, Etc. will be straying so far off course, it may as well be fiction.

 

[101G]

For what it's worth...

I made a video that goes into the Creation Account in great detail...

Genesis 2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"

I was watching your video, but I had to STOP, for I believe in 2 heaven there are dimensional, meaning, measurable of some kind, such as length, breadth, depth, or height, or unlimited. these two heavens are inner, and outward space. and the third heaven envelopes both. and all three are occupied, but with different laws that governs each.

just a s the quantum world... inner space, is also INVISIBLE, but work with this world rules in the KNOWLEDGE of God. just as the VISIBLE, outer World or space, works in conjunction with the KNOWLEDGE of God. and I agree with a Multiverse universe that include the earth and the heavens, inner and outward space in dimension, not as in string theory, but as in a phase of both, being in neither but at the same time in both. other word just as the Lord Jesus did as in what quantum physics calls collapsing the field. hence his "appearing" and "manifestating" in this world as will. as he did in walking through a wall when the door is shut. these fields I believe exist in all three heavens... Govern by the Word of God.

as we have the field of gravity, or the weak and strong fields for an exanple, see what I mean. there are thing existing in our world that is not seen with the naked eye, but having the force of a certian field at one's manipulation can render what's invisible, visible, are you following me now? but understand, I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, but only consider what I have said... ok, but keep up the Good work...

PS if one can collapse a certian field, a whole other or NEW UNIVERSE can be experienced. meaning as the apostle Pauld said, "whether in or out of the body"... (smile).

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Base12]

I was watching your video, but I had to STOP...

Sounds like we are in agreement to me... lol.

these two heavens are inner...

I call that the Microcosm.

...and outward space.

I call that the Macrocosm.

and the third heaven envelopes both.

I call that the Multiverse.

The point I make in the movie about Heaven vs. Heavens, is that if God created all three Heavens in Genesis 1, then what was God creating here...

Genesis 1:8
"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

So my position is that God only created one of the Three Heavens in Genesis 1, then goes on to create the other two in later verses.

Thus I believe the KJV is correct by using the singular 'Heaven'...

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

 

[Base12]

Oh, and the Third Heaven is the Microcosm (Kingdom of God Within), which is created here...

Genesis 1:11
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."

Seed is a perfect example of a Microcosm...

Matthew 13:31
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:"

When Paul was transported to the Third Heaven, I believe it was the Microcosm of Abraham's Bosom...

 

[Base12]

Sounds like we are in agreement to me... lol.

Aw man.

@101G, I forgot the most important 'Heaven Within' example.

Since we both agree that Adam was created on the Third Day, we now have even more evidence that the Third Heaven was created last on Day 3.

So it's...

• Heaven #1 (Multiverse) created on Day #1
• Heaven #2 (Macrocosm) created on Day #2
• Heaven #3 (Microcosm) created on Day #3

Simple and easy to remember.