THE DAY OF THE LORD AND THE CHURCH

[Doug]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 KJV - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul is speaking about the day of the Lord, a day of wrath: Zephaniah 1:15 KJV - That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1 Thessalonians 5:3 KJV - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul is writing to the church of the Thessalonians: 1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who Paul is speaking of as being "they and them" in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 are not the church.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJV - But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Here in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 and 5:9, the church is being spoken of.

Paul said in verse 2 that the day of the Lord would come as in the night, but the church was not in the darkness of night, and therefore, would not endure that judgment: 1 Thessalonians 5:2 KJV - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The day of the Lord is a day of wrath, the church is not appointed to wrath; the church will not face the day of the Lord.

The tribulation period is also a period of wrath: Luke 21:23 KJV - But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

The church will be caught up before the day of the Lord and the tribulation: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

That was the clincher...

Now I'm all in for a pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[Davy]

Here we go again with Doug's belief on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

One of the false ideas Pre-trib likes to push is a false assumption that the "wrath" Apostle Paul said we are not appointed to means the time of "great tribulation" just prior to the last day, i.e. Satan's wrath during the trib. Man's pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly teaches that Jesus comes prior to the tribulation with a 'secret' coming to gather His Church into Heaven, because... they are not appointed to wrath from Satan! That actually is a sneaky attempt to try and change what the Scripture is actually teaching.


"As a Thief":

The "as a thief" metaphor that Apostle Paul used in 1 Thess.5 is a very important to link to the timing of our Lord Jesus coming, and for the "day of the Lord" events. In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 our Lord Jesus taught about the day of His coming would be like a thief breaking in, and blessed is the goodman of the house that watches. In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial, Jesus warns His Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments lest we appear naked and in shame. Then on the 7th Vial is shown His coming to fight the battle of Armageddon. Paul says the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Who else said that? Apostle Peter did:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Do yal think I'm trying to be funny here with this? That is the day of "wrath" that Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5! It has to be, because Paul spoke of that SAME TIMING of the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night"!

Now who thinks that when that consuming fire from God burns up man's works off this earth still believes the time of "great tribulation" can still be going on?? I guarantee... it won't be. That fire happens on the LAST DAY of this world, not during the tribulation. That LAST DAY is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, and END this present world. That is when Jesus comes to gather His Church. It is that WRATH, God's Cup of Wrath poured out on the last day, that is the wrath Paul was pointing to (Revelation 16:15 forward; Revelation 6 with the 6th Seal; Revelation 11 with the 7th Trumpet).


Thus we discover that the "wrath" Paul was pointing to is about the day of GOD'S WRATH on the LAST DAY of this world!

 

[Davy]

In 1 Thessalonians 5:3, where does Apostle Paul get the idea about the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord"?

1 Thess 5:1-3
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

What's those "times and the seasons" Paul says they already knew? It's about the Signs of the end of this world that our Lord Jesus gave us, here in The New Testament and in the Old Testament prophets. This matter Paul covers here includes details about the "day of the Lord" from the OT prophets also.


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

There are actually 3 ideas there which Paul is pulling from the OT prophets Daniel and Isaiah. The idea that the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" is about the coming of the "little horn" of Daniel 8 that will destroy using peace, and will make craft prosper on the earth. The deceived who worship him will be saying that "Peace and safety" at the end for the time of tribulation. This is how the coming tribulation is to appear for the deceived. This is what Lord Jesus was showing us when He said we'd hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet. What is the opposite of wars and rumors of wars? It is a time of peace.

The 2nd idea is the time of "sudden destruction". We are told about that in Isaiah on the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's coming to end this present world, and the tribulation. That is the day of their destruction, upon the deceived and the wicked. So with that, Apostle Paul has SET THE TIME OF HIS IDEA OF WRATH HERE. That "sudden destruction" is the day of God's cup of wrath poured out on the 7th Vial of Rev.16. That day of course ENDS the great tribulation. Thus Paul is pointing to the END OF THE TRIBULATION HERE.

The "travail upon a woman with child" is another point to Isaiah about the deceived on the "day of the Lord". It points to deception. God in Isaiah 54 used the idea of the barren woman whose paps did not give suck as being His faithful, though persecuted. He said the barren is blessed with more children than the married wife. That's a metaphor pointing to worship. That is where Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 got the idea of presenting us to Christ as "a chaste virgin", we are to have but one Husband (spiritual sense pointing to Christ). So these who 'travail with child' means what per the metaphor? It means those didn't WAIT for Jesus' coming at the end of the tribulation! Thus they are found spiritually 'with child' in false worship to another!!!


See what you miss brethren by not studying ALL... of God's Word for yourself!

To see more about this warning about those who are deceived and found 'with child' (spiritually) by not WAITING on Christ's coming at the END of the tribulation, study the Luke 23:27-31 Scripture that relates to the Blessed are the barren idea in Isaiah 54.

 

[justbyfaith]

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

1Th 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This was the clincher for me...the Lord has now convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Because I previously thought that the wrath that is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 was the lake of fire.

But it has now become clear to me that the day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation) is also a day of wrath...

And since the Lord has not appointed us to wrath, how can we be on the earth when all of these things begin to go down?

 

[Davy]

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

1Th 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This was the clincher for me...the Lord has now convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture.

That should not be a clincher for those in Christ, simply because the day of wrath Paul is pointing is the 7th Vial of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the last day of this world.

Paul was NOT pointing to Satan's wrath during the great tribulation. Believing that is where Pre-trib rapture theory has you fooled.

 

[quietthinker]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 KJV - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul is speaking about the day of the Lord, a day of wrath: Zephaniah 1:15 KJV - That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1 Thessalonians 5:3 KJV - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul is writing to the church of the Thessalonians: 1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who Paul is speaking of as being "they and them" in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 are not the church.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJV - But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Here in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 and 5:9, the church is being spoken of.

Paul said in verse 2 that the day of the Lord would come as in the night, but the church was not in the darkness of night, and therefore, would not endure that judgment: 1 Thessalonians 5:2 KJV - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The day of the Lord is a day of wrath, the church is not appointed to wrath; the church will not face the day of the Lord.

The tribulation period is also a period of wrath: Luke 21:23 KJV - But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

The church will be caught up before the day of the Lord and the tribulation: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't think you know what or why the tribulation is.....if you did you wouldn't talk in the terms you do.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Great Tribulation is going to be the wrath of the Lord on a Christ-rejecting world.

 

[quietthinker]

The Great Tribulation is going to be the wrath of the Lord on a Christ-rejecting world.

information is an aid to seeing; it is not the seeing itself just as training in an art is not the art itself. One can gather all the information, even make a profession of spruiking it but remain blind.

 

[justbyfaith]

information is an aid to seeing; it is not the seeing itself just as training in an art is not the art itself. One can gather all the information, even make a profession of spruiking it but remain blind.

I'm not certain that I understand what you are trying to say by this.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm not certain that I understand what you are trying to say by this.

read it carefully. Jesus might say, 'if you have ears to hear then hear, if you have eyes to see, then see'

 

[Doug]

I don't think you know what or why the tribulation is.....if you did you wouldn't talk in the terms you do.

Please tell me

 

[quietthinker]

Please tell me

Primarily it is not something I can tell you Doug.....but, I can point you in a direction. Earths history is one of conflict between right and wrong. Between the agents of Satan and those faithful to their Creator. The Great Tribulation will be the last Great battle between the agents of evil and God's people.....it will be as per Jacobs trouble .....from which he will be delivered.

 

[Moriah's Song]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 KJV - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Paul is speaking about the day of the Lord, a day of wrath: Zephaniah 1:15 KJV - That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1 Thessalonians 5:2 RSV - For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. (cross reference = cr's) There is no 1,000 yr gap here!​

Paul is speaking about the day of the Lord, a day of wrath: Zephaniah 1:15 KJV - That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

As with the theory of dispensationalism, the hermeneutics are unreliable because the creator of that system in the early 1800's saw something in scripture that appealed to his senses that God would remove the church via a rapture in order to avoid the wrath of God. It has now become the prevailing heresy in the church due to extensive proliferation of those who sought to benefit financially through books, seminars and seminaries.

One example is faulty hermeneutics is of how you connect two different thoughts in your summary together to form a new thought that the original verse was not intended to be....Example: You say "Paul is speaking about the day of the Lord" +++ "a day of wrath." Zephaniah does speak of a "day of wrath" but Zephaniah also speaks of "deliverance" in 3:15..."The Lord has taken away the judgments against you he has cast our your enemies. The King of Israel, the Lord, [Jesus] is in your midst..."

What you also do is to avoid what the intent of what the previous paragraph says in 4:13-18 which is reassurance of those Christians who were concerned about their loved ones who had died as believers. They wanted to know what happens to them in the resurrection on the last day. Paul reassures them that "for those who are asleep,...God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep." He then reassures those "who are still alive (the concerned ones) who are left until the coming of the Lord, will have to wait for their loved ones to be resurrected because they get to go first. Then, after they are raised the alive concerned ones will joined together with their deceased ones and will go up TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. This is the resurrection of all believers of all time and then the end of this age over and done with.

Then in chapter 5 Paul begins to speak of those unsaved ones and how their dead ones and their alive ones will be taken by surprise and will suffer the wrath of God and go to their final place.

As far as Luke 21:23 goes about a tribulation period of a literal 1,000 years; that is not within the text of 1 Thessalonians 1, 4, or 5 at all and should therefore not be inserted extemporaneously to change the intent of scripture.

The New Jerusalem descends next and last.

 

[GISMYS_7]

The rapture (catching up) is very real-but you can pray that you be left behind if you want to.
Luke 21:36
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath ""not appointed us to wrath,"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, ""we shall be saved from wrath through him"". (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:8-10)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be ""caught up"" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Luke 21:36
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath ""not appointed us to wrath,"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”

Why do pre-mils and dispys use these verses to imply that Amils believe they will suffer God's wrath at the end of this age????

 

[GISMYS_7]

Why do pre-mils and dispys use these verses to imply that Amils believe they will suffer God's wrath at the end of this age????

Those left behind must try to live under anti-christ rule during the years of the great tribulation==NO FUN!!!

 

[Moriah's Song]

Those left behind

There will be no one "left behind" because the "so called rapture" is a figment of the imagination of a man named J.N. Darby of England or Scotland in the early 1880's and the "great tribulation" is also of his imagination. One has to do a "cut-and-paste" on 1 Thess. 4:13-17 in order to make that theology fit their pre-conceived theology. The fact that he had an "idea" and then took the "idea" to find support is a technique that dispensationalists and pre-mils have to use to verify the mis-use of "caught up" TOGETHER with the resurrected dead and the ones that were alive at his one and only coming at the end of this one long age.

Any fifth grader when handed that paragraph and asked to read it will always come to the conclusion that there is no "rapture "intended by the term "caught up". One has to be taught that theology. I know because I had never heard the theology after having read the Bible long before I heard John MacArthur and others on the radio. I would sit there with Bible in hand and say..."wwwwhaaat?""

By the way...you never answered my question appropriately.

 

[GEN2REV]

The Lie of the Pre-Trib Rapture has the majority of Christians today still waiting to commit themselves fully to the Lord. They all still live day-to-day like those before the flood of Noah; eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage while their Bible collects dust on the shelf.

They all embrace the popular Hollywood fairy tale that God will rescue them from the hard times to come. Therefore, they will never see the beginnings of the Great Tribulation and never believe there is any Antichrist rule if they're still here and they haven't seen any of their buddies mysteriously disappear with no mainstream news coverage of a great disappearance of Christians. They can sleep soundly at night in their lives of willful sin with the false hope that they will always have a second chance at salvation if they don't make the first bus.

Sad, sad, sad.

Jesus silences this entire charade over and over in the book of John when He states repeatedly that He will not return to take His people with Him until the Last Day, Last Day, …. Laaaaast Day of the world.

John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48

 

[GEN2REV]

… One has to be taught that theology. I know because I had never heard the theology after having read the Bible long before I heard John MacArthur and others on the radio. I would sit there with Bible in hand and say..."wwwwhaaat?""

And ALL mainstream pastors and preachers teach it.

What does that tell ya?

When I first became a devoted Christian, I began to read my Bible voraciously AND watch Christian TV sermons AND listen to Christian radio. I began to notice something interesting.

All of the local churches, TV sermons and radio sermons would always follow the same theme or teaching each week. Isn't that interesting? Some might even say it's great because it keeps Christians in-synch and makes them all feel closer.

Here's the problem with that: it reveals a common agenda, an organization at the top that hands down the teaching of the week for all churches everywhere to carry and dispense. That is a huge heresy.

Nobody but God can know what each individual congregation needs to hear each week and the pastor for that congregation is to put together his sermon each week in prayer and meditation on The Word of God.

When every church across the land is lead by an organization at the top, it is much easier to control a nation of professed Christians.