The Day Star

[michaelvpardo]

I was listening to a certain gentleman on the radio this morning, and I have a question for him, and you should too. There is a verse in 2nd Peter which I find to be one of the most cryptic statements in the Bible, though the meaning may be quite simple:
2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
I realize that some people like to cast a long shadow, others prefer to be invisible, but I'm pretty sure that this verse applies to all that are born again of the Spirit of God. Can you tell me, RCS, what this verse means, and you don't have to turn the word of God into a fairy tale for children to understand. Children are much more capable than you give them credit for. Their brains are like little sponges soaking up information. Why do you think that they ask why? Just to hear you talk. I hope you don't believe that. Very young children have been taught to play piano, do algebra, read relatively sophisticated books. Children have fought wars and been very brave in the face of danger. Don't stunt their growth. Some folks don't want their children to be more intelligent or more knowledgable than themselves, or even wiser. How foolish is such thinking? Men are made awesomely and have tremendous potential built into them by their creator, but to become like Him, not to be Him. Don't be a cause for the little children to stumble, our faith is no fairy tale and the scripture can be taught to little children. We don't steal their innocence by teaching them about the Lord, plainly and clearly, but we might let the world do just that. Wake up.
BTW I wouldn't crawl into a cave even if the sun were going to land in the back yard. I like it out in the open. Fresh air is good for you and what do you have to be afraid of? If I lived in the mountains, I would spend my free time doing more hiking. If I had a boat, I'd spend more time on the water. I could do my exercise and training indoors, but its about breathing, and outside is better. I realize than one day businesses will probably be selling us clean air, but that wouldn't be before the phytoplankton is destroyed. I can't imagine doing forms with an oxygen mask on, but hopefully I won't have to.
If RCS doesn't have a simple answer, maybe someone else here has some ideas, but if you haven't trusted the Lord for salvation and beleived that He's risen, The Lord won't be inclined to give you an answer (or you won't be inclined to hear it.) May the Lord open the eyes of your spirit and incline your ears to Him. Amen.

 

[veteran]

Rev 2:26-28
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
(KJV)


Rev 22:16
16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(KJV)

I don't see any great difficulty with that verse. It's about Christ Jesus as The Morning Star.

 

[michaelvpardo]

All right, Jesus Christ should take up residence in the heart of all that are born again by the Spirit, and I would say that it's impossible for Him to do just that unless one is born again of the Spirit. So do you think that this verse is just saying to use the scripture as a sure word of prophecy until you're born again?
I hate having to go to extrabiblical sources to look for the meaning of scripture, but sometimes you need to understand things that were generally understood by the ancients, but no longer considered valid or significant in our modern technological society. Ancient peoples believed that God provided signs in the heavens that were understood by the relative positions of the moving "stars" to the fixed stars, the sun, and the moon. I'm not familiar with the ancient tradition of Jewish Caballah, but I wouldn't doubt that it included some elements of this ancient practice that goes back as far as written history and was practiced in Chaldea. The book of genesis uses language that suggests this very thing when addressing the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, to rule, and for seasons, and signs. I do not recommend the practice of astrology or any form of divination, spiritism,etc., but I did read a little about it before I was saved, because I had an interest in Astronomy and always enjoyed "star gazing". Tne most famous of the early astronomers, Galileo, Johannes Keppler, Tycho Brahe, and a few others, were all court astrologers. That was how they made a living, as no one was going to pay them to study Astronomy for Astronomy's sake. The motivation for making more accurate measurements of the movement of the planets with respect to the stars, was making more accurate predictions for the kings as to the most propitious times to start wars, building projects, hold weddings, etc. You don't need highly accurate projections of the future positions of the planets to know seasons, planting time and harvest. The astrologers wanted to make precise predictions for men based upon the day and hour of their birth with regard to the future within their lifetimes, and usually only for very short glimpses into what would be propitious as long term predictions generally aren't practical for the average king.
Venus the morning star is also the evening star. When it is in the visible sky it is generally going to be the last star visible in the morning sky as the sun rises, and the first star visible in the evening as the sun sets, hence the name "the day star" and in Jewish reckoning of days, the first and the last. This again points us to the person of Jesus Christ, but the planet Venus has more significance than that in these ancient practices. When Venus appeared in certain significant positions with regard to the Sun, moon, and constellations, it was an indication that a person born at that time, was a ruler, or king, and the star (planet) is associated with kingdom authority. This is why some believe that the Magii were following astrological signs rather than a particularly unique appearing of a star.
I'm inclined to believe that the verse, 2 Peter 1:19, is given to born again believers and is a promise of a special gift that we may all receive, when the time is right, and our hearts are prepared for it, but I could certainly be wrong, as there is no parrallel verse that I'm aware of to even examine with regard to what Peter was getting at.
Do you think that I'm way off base here? I don't like cultic material, but without further scriptural material to examine, this verse is a little tougher than it appears on the surface.

 

[veteran]

All right, Jesus Christ should take up residence in the heart of all that are born again by the Spirit, and I would say that it's impossible for Him to do just that unless one is born again of the Spirit. So do you think that this verse is just saying to use the scripture as a sure word of prophecy until you're born again?

I hate having to go to extrabiblical sources to look for the meaning of scripture, but sometimes you need to understand things that were generally understood by the ancients, but no longer considered valid or significant in our modern technological society. Ancient peoples believed that God provided signs in the heavens that were understood by the relative positions of the moving "stars" to the fixed stars, the sun, and the moon. I'm not familiar with the ancient tradition of Jewish Caballah, but I wouldn't doubt that it included some elements of this ancient practice that goes back as far as written history and was practiced in Chaldea. The book of genesis uses language that suggests this very thing when addressing the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, to rule, and for seasons, and signs. I do not recommend the practice of astrology or any form of divination, spiritism,etc., but I did read a little about it before I was saved, because I had an interest in Astronomy and always enjoyed "star gazing". Tne most famous of the early astronomers, Galileo, Johannes Keppler, Tycho Brahe, and a few others, were all court astrologers. That was how they made a living, as no one was going to pay them to study Astronomy for Astronomy's sake. The motivation for making more accurate measurements of the movement of the planets with respect to the stars, was making more accurate predictions for the kings as to the most propitious times to start wars, building projects, hold weddings, etc. You don't need highly accurate projections of the future positions of the planets to know seasons, planting time and harvest. The astrologers wanted to make precise predictions for men based upon the day and hour of their birth with regard to the future within their lifetimes, and usually only for very short glimpses into what would be propitious as long term predictions generally aren't practical for the average king.

Venus the morning star is also the evening star. When it is in the visible sky it is generally going to be the last star visible in the morning sky as the sun rises, and the first star visible in the evening as the sun sets, hence the name "the day star" and in Jewish reckoning of days, the first and the last. This again points us to the person of Jesus Christ, but the planet Venus has more significance than that in these ancient practices. When Venus appeared in certain significant positions with regard to the Sun, moon, and constellations, it was an indication that a person born at that time, was a ruler, or king, and the star (planet) is associated with kingdom authority. This is why some believe that the Magii were following astrological signs rather than a particularly unique appearing of a star.

I'm inclined to believe that the verse, 2 Peter 1:19, is given to born again believers and is a promise of a special gift that we may all receive, when the time is right, and our hearts are prepared for it, but I could certainly be wrong, as there is no parrallel verse that I'm aware of to even examine with regard to what Peter was getting at.

Do you think that I'm way off base here? I don't like cultic material, but without further scriptural material to examine, this verse is a little tougher than it appears on the surface.

You might be interested in reading Bullinger's Witness To The Stars, if you haven't yet. Bullinger traveled to archaeological sources in search of the 'original' meanings of the 12 Zodiac constellations. What he discovered is how today's descriptions of them came by corruptions in pagan worship. Basically, his research proves The Bible was written in the main 12 star constellations, with their original meanings having been corrupted by paganism over the centuries.

I wouldn't go to sources like the Kabbalah. Unless you're connected with an orthodox Jewish rabbi or some of the mystical fraternities of initiation that teach it, you're not going to learn real Kabbalah teaching anyway. There's a lot of misinformation about what it really is in the history books and new age occult bookstores. Goes to show that just claiming something to be very ancient and a mystery can sell a lot of worthless books to the deceived. What I studied about it before I came to Christ, which was not a version open to the public, showed me its real meaning is about the opposite working of God's tree of life in His Garden. It's information about the fabric of God's creation that no flesh man should have possession of. Much of the methods of ceremonial magic practiced in Europe originate from Kabbalistic magic from a supposed faction that branched off from the Jewish mysticism (7th century A.D. Spain?). The other faction remained only in a philosophical application of it, which is still part of the foundations of Judaism today.

But since Christ rebuked the traditions of the Jewish elders, and claimed they had left the commandments of God, a believer on Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour should come to realize that a religious corruption had taken place with Judah's 70 years captivity to Babylon, a time when big changes happened to them, and pagan elements crept in among them. That's the time when I assign the origin of Kabbalah teaching specifically among Judah, while the system no doubt has a much more ancient history not from Judah or the Levites, but from the pagans that crept in among Judah, like the Canaanites of Judges 2 & 3, 1 Kings 9, and Ezra 2 Nethinims that became priests among Judah. So as far as I'm concerned, the real Kabbalah originates from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that was in God's Eden. It's where the ideas of Salvation 'by other means' originates, which is why its connection with the false tree in Eden, and thus later with the ancient pagan mysteries and the practice of esoteric mysticism. God told Israel to not mess with that kind of stuff. If God had wanted us to know His secrets of the universe and creation for this world, then He would not have warned us about trying to delve into knowledge and practices involving the Heavenly spirit realm.

Thus, the more simple answer of that Morning Star being a reference to Christ Himself is more aligned with what our Heavenly Father wants us to understand. So I'd only go as deep as the New Testament reveals, which involves both the idea of being born of The Holy Spirit through belief on Christ Jesus as The Saviour, and also Paul's teaching about the "new creature" state, along with the future world to come promises.

 

[Prentis]

So, I started by looking at the verse and looked up the words in Greek. Here is the verse, with other possible meanings to the words in brackets.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light [the same word as candle, or lantern] that shineth [appears] in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star [light-bearer] arise in your hearts:

The most interesting word here is the one translated day star. It is not actually literally day star, and this is the ONLY ocurence in the NT.

G5459
φωσφόρος
phōsphoros
foce-for'-os
From G5457 and G5342; light bearing (“phosphorus”), that is, (specifically) the morning star (figuratively): - day star.

The light bearer is indeed Christ. Peter admonishes us to think of the end through the rest of this letter, and to remember the coming judgment, and therefore remain steadfast.

This verses calls us also to be light-bearers, as one carrying a lamp, in this world, a dark place, until the end of this age, and the beginning of the next. We must shine as light as God shakes the whole world.

This is how I understand it.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hello Veteran and hello Prentis,
     Thanks for the information and the understanding offered. I think that I'd like to take a look at the book Veteran mentioned, for interest sake, and again, I would never recommend that anyone dabble in things such as astrology and other forms of divination. Such things have always been tools of the adversary and used in subtle deceptions. The point that I'm trying to get at is that this epistle of Peter appears to have been written to saints as is suggested in the first verse and there doesn't seem to be any point in promising saints that they will receive Jesus Christ as their savior (or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) since as saints they already have Him. No this verse appears to be about a special gift promised to the saints at some point in time, either in their own growth toward maturity or to the Church as a whole at some point in it's maturity. It isn't the way of God to raise up individuals to Lord it over the Church, Jesus Himself came as a servant, so I'm inclined to believe the latter idea of a gift to all believers at the right time, rather than allow a situatiion through which some weak in the faith would bend the knee (or worship) some that have reached a greater maturity. Now, in our time and in our country, there is considerable wealth within the church, which we may use faithfully in our service to the Lord, or squander on our own desires. However, a time is coming when personal wealth will become meaningless to those who will not submit to the antichrist. If you believe that the church will be caught up before his rise to power, then this discussion is meaningless. But if the church remains in the world as witnesses of Jesus Christ and of the gospel of His grace, how would we survive without the ability to trade, own property, etc.? I know that the Lord our Provider will meet our needs, but how do you suppose that he'll do this? And in a world that places no value in anything except the material, how will anyone be willing to listen to the witness of dispossesd people living in abject poverty? I think we will receive greater power and authority for the purpose of ministry, service, and testimony.
     It doesn't make a great deal of sense to take such verses, especially one addressed directly to the body of christ, and allow for an interpretation that adds nothing to our understanding of God's will or plan for us. I don't believe that anything in scripture is there accidentally; God is sovereign in creation, and certainly in control of the Word given through the prophets and through Jesus Christ Himself (or by extension through the body of Christ.) I'm not saying that this is something to obsess over or turn into some new doctrine, but wouldn't it be comforting to know that God holds more heavenly gifts for us to use for His glory and to provide for our need and our service through times which will be perilous and through which men without His Spirit could faint from fear?
     There are already people who profess Christ, yet are growing panicky over the play of events in the world now, and I don't anticipate the times to get better. Should they find themselves in the midst of great tribulation, will their faith sustain them if the Lord doesn't grant them strength and shelter through the Storm? Knowing the character of our Lord, can you believe that He would leave us helpless through the evil days? The Lord who is able to save our souls and raise us from the dead is more than able to save us through tribulation and give us powerful testimonies of His majestic power and might, but if we doubt Him why would He? If we deny Him, hasn't He said that He will deny us?
That might not appear loving, but it certainly is just, and all He's ever asked of us is to trust Him and follow His Spirit wherever He might lead us.Personally, I would wish to be mistaken, to live out my days in comfort and ease, and be satisfied with whatever the Lord provides, but I don't think that such a life brings us closer to Christ or does anything to conform us more closely to His image. Even our trials and tribulations are intended for our good, if we are indeed to be found in Him. So let our hearts be true now, so that we may stand in the evil day. Amen.

 

[veteran]

I think it dangerous to try and over-analyze that verse, which can only lead to confusion. Christ said He would give to those who overcome in Him the morning star in relation to their ruling with Him in His future Kingdom. So it's like Prentis covered for today, and for the future as kings and priests ruling with Christ.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hello Veteran,
I sort of agree with you and sort of don't. When Christ Appears and we are all transformed,we should all understand what the day star is, but what is the point of scripture if not to usher us into His Kingdom, through personal knowledge of Him. There are going to be 144,000 saints doing mighty deeds, and witnessing the truth, during the time of the tribulation. I realize that some believe that this will all be Jewish saints, but according to the scripture, all who have been born again of His Spirit are the Israel of God, regardless of what religion we might have been raised in. The church that I was raised in believed that it had exclusive rights to minister God's grace. In other words the priesthood of that church believe themselves to be the only means of salvation. Some genius interested in consolidating power even came up with the doctrine that there is no salvation without the "church." The actual truth of the matter is that there is no salvation without Jesus Christ. God doesn't need the church, but the church, as the body of Christ, only exists at God's will and by His grace. Now, that particular church had a basis in sound doctrine while it was part of the Jerusalem church, but after religion was institutionalized by a certain king, almost any form of nonsensical belief was accepted into "church" doctrines or at least "church" practices as long as it could be hidden in religious themes of a biblical nature. e.g the incorporation of gods to pray to with power or dominion over certain circumstances, environments, or types of work, etc. but disguised as the worship of saints, the substitution of the fertilility god, by the mother of our Lord, etc, etc., etc. Are they the only church that has guilt in this matter? Who allowed ancient kabbalistic traditions into their doctrines? Who allowed racism? Who allowed ancient celtic practices? The list consists of more than one congregation, "church", club, or organization.
Some Vietnam Vet.s liked the slogan "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." But God gave us life and we choose death. I don't see any major church, messianic, or otherwise as being prepared for the times of the tribulation, but the tribulation is nearly upon us. I realize that there are still people like Charles Manson around who want to see the end and work toward it just for the sake of destruction, and perhaps they think that they'll be left standing to inherit the ruins. I'm sure that this isn't what I want, yet I see such things coming. Who's going to change anything if it isn't Christ? And if He's going to use His church, as the scripture plainly says, then I'd say that its a safe bet that there will be a major outpouring of His Spirit, or a special empowerment for those whose hearts are prepared for it. I don't see any big revivals going on in the book of the revelation. What I do see is rejection of the truth and massive persecutions of the saints until the last two stand in Jerusalem, are executed, resurrected, and Christ Returns to take possesion of all the kingdoms of the earth.
When you start to see people empowered by God doing great and mighty works as part of their witness and testimony, and not for gain as the only profit will be a swift death, will you think that it's just another worldwide cult, or will your heart be open to the gift? If we refuse to believe what God will grant us on faith, then I certainly wouldn't expect to receive anything at all. You either trust Him or you don't. You either believe the word or just read the word. I'm sure that plenty of people are willing to just sit on the fence while things seem safe and peaceful, but He comes as a thief in the night.
I'm inclined to believe that the assignment to tribes will occur one by one over a twelve day period, though it doesn't have to be actual days. I would actually prefer that it happened over a much longer period of time, so I could have time to retire and enjoy life a bit. However, I know what the world is doing, what the ruler of this world is up to. Right now, there are people using data collection, that can produce a computer model of a person, based upon likes and dislikes, use of language, captured images and voice, purchasing habits, etc. If you have enough data captured for your image of the person, or "Avatar," you can freely use that any way you want to, once the person is out of the way. You could take a spiritual leader that is well accepted, like the Pope, or dalai lama, and present them selling Diet soda, or redemptive foods, etc. What did the Elohim say about the tower of Babel and what kind of electronic tower have we built in our culture today? What will men not conceive of and do? No, the world is being prepared to be brought together under a single authority, some think that the authority will be the anti-christ and this is true for a season, but a short one. The times are here. Some call it end-game, but it's no game at all. It's life and death and then new life, but only those who are Jesus' at His coming will have any inheritance in it. If we are His, then we have a part to play, or a life to live, depending upon how you look at it. My life isn't an act although there are times when I wish it was. I'm thankful that the Lord hasn't revealed everything that I've ever done that was wrong, but if I ever did anything that was right, it was only by His grace. When you realize this, it is quite liberating, and the more you love Him, the more faithful you become to Him. What does the scripture say? Something like "weeping my endure for the night, but joy will come in the morning." You don't have to trust me, but you do need to trust Jesus. We have a new day preparing to dawn, rejoice in it and be glad. Amen & Amen.