The Deception of Tithing and Paid Pastors

[TitusTwoWife]

This is clearly about material support.

Which I am not against. Ministers could expect food, shelter, and clothing as they traveled but it is wrong to say that that translates to the system we have today. I am against the church as a business model and pastors making a salary from ministry. They can make a salary elsewhere. That's not the issue. The issue is that tithing and salaried ministers are not biblical.

 

[marks]

The issue is that tithing and salaried ministers are not biblical.

Giving and supporting your pastor is fully Biblical, I truly don't understand why you do not see that. I hope you will consider the Scriptures I've shared.

Much love!

 

[TitusTwoWife]

I'm not talking about tithing, that was for Israel. Our pastor is not dependent on the congregation. He's not a hireling. He depends on God.

Im glad we agree that tithing was for Israel and not for the church of today. I'm also glad we agree that a pastor should not depend on a congregation and not be a hireling but depend on God.

Ministers were worthy of receiving food, shelter, and clothing as they ministered. That's what it means to not muzzle the ox as it treads the grain. But Jesus and the disciples were dependent on God and hospitality and others. They did have a secure living or a salary from ministry.

Paul wrote, With food and clothing, we shall be content (1 Timothy 6:8).

He warned against filthy lucre as a motive for ministry.

1 Peter 5:2
King James Version
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Giving and supporting your pastor is fully Biblical, I truly don't understand why you do not see that. I hope you will consider the Scriptures I've shared.

Much love!

I already said it's biblical to support ministers. With food, clothing, and maybe temporary shelter just as Jesus and His disciples received.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Look at the context.

1 Timothy 5:16-18 KJV
16) If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

And compare to,

1 Corinthians 9:4-12 KJV
4) Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6) Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7) Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8) Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10) Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12) If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

This is clearly about material support.

Much love!

Speaking of context,

More of 1 Cor 9

1 Corinthians 9:12-18
King James Version
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

 

[marks]

Speaking of context,

More of 1 Cor 9

1 Corinthians 9:12-18
King James Version
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

I had asked you if you know why it was that Paul continued to work to support himself. You didn't answer me.

1 Corinthians 9:16-18 KJV
16) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

God required of Paul that he preach the Gospel. so Paul understood that in doing so, there was no reward, he was only doing what was required of him. So then Paul, to gain reward for his labor, preached at his own cost, not of necessity, but as his contribution to the Cause.

Paul treats himself as the exception to the rule.

I'm going to leave you with what I've posted, the answers are right there in the Scriptures, but only if you are willing to receive them.

I understand what you are saying, but there is a baby in that bathwater that has been tossed out.

Much love!

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Recently I learned that there were three types of tithes in the Old Testament:

The Levitical tithe was for the Levite priesthood of Israel because they did not inherit land and were to lead the Israelites in worship and sacrifices.

The Festival Tithe was the tithe that the people would use to celebrate and eat before the Lord.

The tithe for the poor was like a public welfare system for those in need.

If anyone is curious, I can provide Scriptures for all of the above.

These tithes combined made up over 20 percent of an Israelite's income and some Orthodox Jews still practice this.

None of the tithes was money. It was always food.

Do not let churches guilt trip you about tithing. Modern tithing is not biblical. In the New Testament giving is for urgent needs for other saints especially but also to the poor, widows, our enemies, and those who ask (Sermon on the Mount Matthew 5-7). The early Christians did not need to collect money to fund fancy buildings and bigger buildings or a paid pastoral staff. They could give directly to those in need.

Jesus accepted gifts and hospitality from his followers but he never pressured anyone to pay a tithe or charged for ministry.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Also, I see no one is refuting the obvious. If a pastor depends on the congregation to fund a secure lifestyle for him, he is pushed to do what they want and avoid uncomfortable truths that might lead them to stop tithing and attending.

The Lord Jesus said controversial truths that offended many and He simply let them walk away.

 

[marks]

Also, I see no one is refuting the obvious. If a pastor depends on the congregation to fund a secure lifestyle for him, he is pushed to do what they want and avoid uncomfortable truths that might lead them to stop tithing and attending.

You are merely assuming pastors have no integrity, and that's not right.

Oh, anyone who receives support from their congregation is a coward, concerned only for their own skin! Take away their money, and they will curse You to Your face!!

Is that what you mean?

 

[TitusTwoWife]

You are merely assuming pastors have no integrity, and that's not right.

Oh, anyone who receives support from their congregation is a coward, concerned only for their own skin! Take away their money, and they will curse You to Your face!!

Is that what you mean?

Even if a pastor has integrity, under the tithing model, he will feel pressure to water down Scripture, correction, and exhortation because his financial security depends on tithing members.

There's no need to guess what I mean or give an example from your mind about what I mean. I said what I meant.

 

[marks]

he will feel pressure to water down Scripture, correction, and exhortation because his financial security depends on tithing members.

You've just slandered my pastor, and who knows how many others, godly men, walking in the Spirit, but for you, liars and thieves.

Over and out.

 

[Wick Stick]

Yes, they met in houses, but literally many 1,000's gathered for meetings, at the temple, the church in Antioch, the first first churches were what we would call "mega church".

Much love!

Early churches met in homes every day of the week. There was a larger gathering once weekly that was typically held outside of the town, at an amphitheater or pnyx.

 

[marks]

Early churches met in homes every day of the week. There was a larger gathering once weekly that was typically held outside of the town, at an amphitheater or pnyx.

Both, I think.

Acts 2:46 KJV
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Much love!

 

[Triumph1300]

I guess if you think it's ok for pastors to be living in multimillion dollar mansions, by all means keep giving them money.

And don't forget the airstrips and the jets.
It all takes money.
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Luke 9:3
Jesus instructs his disciples not to take anything with them on their journey except a walking stick. He emphasizes that they should focus on their mission to preach and heal, without worrying about their physical needs.

This teaching encourages reliance on God's provision rather than personal resources.
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[Rockerduck]

I guess the Lord singled me out, because He told me to give to my church.

2 Corinthians 11:8 -I robbed other churches by taking wages from them to serve you;

1 Timothy 5:17-18 - The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

1 Corinthians 9:14 - So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

You've just slandered my pastor, and who knows how many others, godly men, walking in the Spirit, but for you, liars and thieves.

Over and out.

May God bless you.

 

[NayborBear]

You are merely assuming pastors have no integrity, and that's not right.

Oh, anyone who receives support from their congregation is a coward, concerned only for their own skin! Take away their money, and they will curse You to Your face!!

Is that what you mean?

I would say this to your comment.
Should a pastor be from a lifelong church going environment, and being "called, or discipled" into the "ministry", then being whisked away off to an institute of (so called) higher spiritual learning?
Having NO "marketable skills", inasmuch as, if he gets a flat tire on his vehicle? He must call someone to come change it cuz he/she don't know how?
Under circumstances like, or similar to this? Should the money disappear? Leaving him with NO finances? And having to "get a job?" And, with no marketable skills nor a tool belt to put them in?
If he couldn't reconcile that God was trying to tell him something, and cause him to "lose his faith?"
There's a moderate probability that a "cursing" would be in his future!

Having said that........I have to agree with the OP! A pastor/preacher should be able to support himself and his family financially!
ESPECIALLY these days! due to the "famine of the end times", where material sufficiency is at least adequate, yet the Word Of God is resisted by those with "itchy ears" BEGGING for someone to "tickle" 'em!

Because ya see? God doesn't require a building anymore. As the Temple of God is within us!
AHHH! But MAN does!

 

[PS95]

Tithing is in the old testament and was designed to feed the Levite tribe because that particular tribe wasn't to inherent any land but to serve in the priesthood. It was always food, never money.

The New Testament Church did not tithe, but gave freely to one another until no one had a need. The Lord Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles and disciples did not receive money for their ministry. They were entitled to food and clothing as they went, but Paul denied himself this right in order to not be a burden on the people he ministered to and taught those serving with him to do the same.

You cannot serve God and money. The church business model of the day creates a perverse incentive against pastors preaching the truth straight from the Bible.

Tithing as mandatory is indeed not in the NT. We are to give what we are able and from a cheerful heart. Believe it or not, there are a lot of Christians who want to tithe. I've been told that their reason is due to Abraham's tithe who was not under the law. He chose to. I suppose they feel convicted in some way from that. Tithing was complicated in the OT- and not just about money.
I do have a problem with any pastor who teaches tithing as mandatory- it's good thing that many do not teach that. When you were in the Orthodox church- did they teach tithing? I didn't think they did but who knows...

I used to think that asking for money was a bad sign of a greedy false teacher- but Paul asked for donations quite a bit in his letters and he also encouraged them to give all the more. I would never take that as Paul being greedy- just that money is necessary. As far as the pastor taking a FT secular job- I would say that's optional. Paul chose to work and it's very clear- that it was not full time. Paul also chose not to marry- that doesn't mean he couldn't. There is nothing wrong with paying the lead pastor or two a salary. If that church chooses to do that- why begrudge them? It's not as if pastoring a church isn't working! I can't imagine all that job entails.. I've seen many pastor's wives working plenty serving the church all week long and without pay- so the pay is for both.

You seem opposed to church buildings- while I agree they never need to be fancy, but they do need electricity and plumbing, heating and cooling- and a kitchen etc. We can not be exactly like the earliest church- nor do we have to be- - If they could have afforded a separate structure open to the public early on they would have- the church was very young and growing. We need to be careful about looking at the externals only- the heart is what matters. There are still many modest community churches around.
If we still only had home fellowships which I don't begrudge- but those make us less visible to the seeking and the lost needy. It also can put a real burden on the person whose home the meeting is in. A separate building also allows for children to come and learn and play together.
I am very familiar with the Amish- they meet in homes- every OTHER Sunday.
The walls in their homes are built, so that they can remove the walls-- in order to make room for everyone. A lot has to be done to allow for this- all of the furniture has to be moved out- and seating for all brought in. Tables are set up for a common meal- a lot of food prep etc.. Once it is over it all has to be done in reverse. They take turns doing this. No wonder they meet every other week.
It just makes sense for communities to have separate structures to gather in.
Paying the pastor if done out of love is not wrong! It affords him more time to be an effective pastor rather than being concerned about a job, family and the people.
I do not think it's necessary to pay a FT salary to all other positions in the church - other than a f/t secretary.
Deacons/elders usually are not paid as far as I have seen. Some might be, but I don't see the need- but the lead pastor- sure ,why not.
God isn't looking down at us making sure that we are identical in every way to the earliest church. He looks at our hearts.
A hard working devoted pastor taking a pay from his congregation is not a sin. He earns it.

 

[Triumph1300]

I guess the Lord singled me out, because He told me to give to my church.

Giving freely to the church and paying tithes are two different things.
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Seems to me that "giving freely" is a personal choice and "tithing" is an old testament rule being preached in todays churches.

The tithes today are used as a form of blackmail ---you don't give your tithes you are not being blessed.
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People should give freely as the Lord puts in their heart.

 

[Rockerduck]

Giving freely to the church and paying tithes are two different things.
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Seems to me that "giving freely" is a personal choice and "tithing" is an old testament rule being preached in todays churches.

The tithes today are used as a form of blackmail ---you don't give your tithes you are not being blessed.

IF it were up to me, I would not give anything, However, the Lord told me to "give". I've dealt with the spirit world and there is more to it than just giving. The spirit world and the principalities in high places witness the things in this realm for God's purpose. So, if God says to do something, you do for more reasons than He says.