The disastrous failure of the early church

[John Zain]

Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless Church for hundreds of years!

Yes, this is the condition of the church today, but it started some 1800 years ago.
This selfish attitude caused God’s Church to become man’s church.
So God said, “Okay, if you insist on going in this direction, I’ll back off.”
(Remember, it has always been God’s plan to accomplish His goals on earth
with a co-operative effort between Himself and man who has free will.)

However, Satan had a huge part in this …
“the god (ruler) of this world (age)” (John 12:31, 2 Corinthians 4:4)
has always had a tremendous influence in the affairs of man.
Satan did not want the churches to continue to have
the spiritual power they enjoyed during the NT times.
This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
truth of the gospel, which obviously can help people come to the Lord,
and are what produce miraculous healings of all kinds.

Those in charge of the big churches 1800 years ago wanted to be in control.
What these men did NOT want …
-- God to be in control of the churches (this includes His use of S-W-M)
-- ditto for God’s anointed apostles and prophets (who ran the NT churches)
-- to acknowledge S-W-M
-- anyone in the church with more spiritual anointing than they had
-- to look spiritually inferior to anyone
-- to risk losing their power, prestige, jobs, etc.

These are the reasons why men in control of the large post-apostolic churches
increasingly chose to fight against God’s anointing of certain believers
who had some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11).
So, they came up with the excuse that S-W-M ceased with the passing of the apostles.

Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
And this special anointing baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
The experience is simply called “the baptism with the Holy Spirit”,
and the initial evidence (confirmation) of receiving this is speaking in tongues.
The tongues here is a one-time sign, just a confirmation of what happened.
This is NOT one of the 9 spiritual gifts (tongues) in 1 Corinthians 12:10.
This Spirit baptism also was claimed to have ceased with the passing of the apostles.
And other excuses were devised by Satan and man to weaken the churches’ spiritual power.

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?
I urge you to persistently seek Jesus’ Spirit baptism for yourself.

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!

 

[THE Gypsy]

What is "S-W-M"?

 

[Axehead]

What is "S-W-M"?

Signs, Wonders and Miracles. (I think).

 

[THE Gypsy]

Signs, Wonders and Miracles. (I think).

Oh!

I racked my brain on that and all I could come up with was "Single-White-Male".

 

[Axehead]

Oh!

I racked my brain on that and all I could come up with was "Single-White-Male".

I racked my brain, too. And then when I thought I was just about to crack up from the pressure, I finally got it, (I think).

I certainly hope it's not Single-White-Male.
"So, they came up with the excuse that S-W-M ceased with the passing of the apostles."

 

[Mungo]

Do you have any evidence to back up your opinions in Title and the OP?

 

[Rex]

That was the predominate thought I had, then I seen that Gypsy asked the very question I had on my mind. LOL

OOps I did not see the one who has a different question.

 

[John Zain]

Hey, Axehead ...
I like your avatar ... very apropos for this thread, don't you think?
Now, someone will ask what an avatar is.

Do you have any evidence to back up your opinions in Title and the OP?

No, just some knowledge of human nature, and some common sense.
Then again, maybe the Lord revealed this to me.

Perhaps books such as these have come up with the same conclusion ...

http://www.amazon.com/Charismatic-Gifts-Early-Church-Exploration/dp/0913573094

http://www.amazon.com/2000-Years-Charismatic-Christianity-pentecostal/dp/0884198723/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Manifestations-Spirit-History-Church/dp/0974474894/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_1

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Initiation-Baptism-Holy-Spirit/dp/0814650090

 

[Rex]

Yeaaa that's right John well just call it tradition.

wow that sounds so weak, but then again nobody asked me to butt in.
I'm in a posting mood so pay me no never mind.

Just trying to give some of you a chuckle

 

[teamventure]

Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless Church for hundreds of years!

Yes, this is the condition of the church today, but it started some 1800 years ago.
This selfish attitude caused God’s Church to become man’s church.
So God said, “Okay, if you insist on going in this direction, I’ll back off.”
(Remember, it has always been God’s plan to accomplish His goals on earth
with a co-operative effort between Himself and man who has free will.)

However, Satan had a huge part in this …
“the god (ruler) of this world (age)” (John 12:31, 2 Corinthians 4:4)
has always had a tremendous influence in the affairs of man.
Satan did not want the churches to continue to have
the spiritual power they enjoyed during the NT times.
This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
truth of the gospel, which obviously can help people come to the Lord,
and are what produce miraculous healings of all kinds.

Those in charge of the big churches 1800 years ago wanted to be in control.
What these men did NOT want …
-- God to be in control of the churches (this includes His use of S-W-M)
-- ditto for God’s anointed apostles and prophets (who ran the NT churches)
-- to acknowledge S-W-M
-- anyone in the church with more spiritual anointing than they had
-- to look spiritually inferior to anyone
-- to risk losing their power, prestige, jobs, etc.

These are the reasons why men in control of the large post-apostolic churches
increasingly chose to fight against God’s anointing of certain believers
who had some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11).
So, they came up with the excuse that S-W-M ceased with the passing of the apostles.

Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
And this special anointing baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
The experience is simply called “the baptism with the Holy Spirit”,
and the initial evidence (confirmation) of receiving this is speaking in tongues.
The tongues here is a one-time sign, just a confirmation of what happened.
This is NOT one of the 9 spiritual gifts (tongues) in 1 Corinthians 12:10.
This Spirit baptism also was claimed to have ceased with the passing of the apostles.
And other excuses were devised by Satan and man to weaken the churches’ spiritual power.

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?
I urge you to persistently seek Jesus’ Spirit baptism for yourself.

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!

1) in matt 16:4 when the pharisies came to Jesus asking him for a sign from heaven, Jesus replied "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." that verse should make you concerned John.
2) also in the new testemant when Jesus healed someone it didn't necesarilly cause a conversion. preaching the gospel is what leads to more conversions.
3) there are more signs and wonders in the last days contributed to the devil in the Bible than God. should make you wonder what power source you're tapping into.

 

[Rex]

I get this strange feeling that an IEB my go off at any moment.

 

[Groundzero]

Firstly, I agree with you John. God still wants to move among us as he did back with the apostles, and he still does. Unfortunately, too many stifle the Spirit, or worse yet, reject it, or aren't fully committed to God.

1) in matt 16:4 when the pharisies came to Jesus asking him for a sign from heaven, Jesus replied "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." that verse should make you concerned John.
2) also in the new testemant when Jesus healed someone it didn't necesarilly cause a conversion. preaching the gospel is what leads to more conversions.
3) there are more signs and wonders in the last days contributed to the devil in the Bible than God. should make you wonder what power source you're tapping into.

1. For your first point, you have omitted the rest of verse which would have put it in context. What sign were they after? A sign to show them that Jesus was God. Get the facts right before you use scripture to back up a man-made doctrine.

2. No signs and wonders don't necessarily mean conversion, but signs and wonders are what FOLLOWED a believer. If you are a true Believer, some amazing things should be happening because you have the spirit of the Almighty God inside you. The spirit-filled believer WILL have signs, wonders, and miracles because it's impossible to have the spirit of God and not be moved.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

3. Henceforth the apostle John declared, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Did John say to stop being in the spirit because there were so many false ones? NO! He said, Test them! Does this spirit confess that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh? If not, then don't have anything to do with it.

 

[teamventure]

ZebraHug, you are right about testing the spirits, but i have noticed it much more common for those in the signs and wonders movement to assume every sign or wonder is the holy spirit instead of testing them.
the signs and wonders movement would rather just assume every experience is the holy spirit even if it may be of the devil.

 

[Groundzero]

ZebraHug, you are right about testing the spirits, but i have noticed it much more common for those in the signs and wonders movement to assume every sign or wonder is the holy spirit instead of testing them.
the signs and wonders movement would rather just assume every experience is the holy spirit even if it may be of the devil.

In that case, it's the people who are in the wrong, not the teaching.
Someone who is FILLED with the Spirit, however, should be repelling Satanic influence just as Jesus did. One who is in tune with the Spirit should detect when something is not right.

 

[John Zain]

1) in matt 16:4 when the pharisies came to Jesus asking him for a sign from heaven, Jesus replied "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." that verse should make you concerned John.
2) also in the new testemant when Jesus healed someone it didn't necesarilly cause a conversion. preaching the gospel is what leads to more conversions.
3) there are more signs and wonders in the last days contributed to the devil in the Bible than God. should make you wonder what power source you're tapping into.

Daaaah ... I mean, Aaaaah ...
thou had better put in a request that Angelica answer your questions about this.
Because you won't listen to me, that's for sure.
Warning ... I'ze da green-shirted monster above.

 

[teamventure]

you're right John i won't listen to you but the word of God. the question is, will you listen to the scripture i posted? a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. are you seeking after signs and wonders John or after the truth of Gods word found in scripture?

 

[John Zain]

Firstly, I agree with you John. God still wants to move among us as he did back with the apostles, and he still does.
Unfortunately, too many stifle the Spirit, or worse yet, reject it, or aren't fully committed to God.

Thanks, ZH, for the rare support to one of my threads ...

I'm no expert on Christians' excuses for this terrible UNBELIEF,
but don't you think 1800 years of false teaching in the churches
might just be the most logical one?

P.S. I'ze never been hugged by a one-month old, but I'ze willin' to try.

 

[teamventure]

Thanks, ZH, for the rare support to one of my threads ...

I'm no expert on Christians' excuses for this terrible UNBELIEF,
but don't you think 1800 years of false teaching in the churches
might just be the most logical one?

P.S. I'ze never been hugged by a one-month old, but I'ze willin' to try.

ok then fancy me this; what signs and wonders do you practice? i am just curious.

 

[John Zain]

i have noticed it much more common for those in the signs and wonders movement
to assume every sign or wonder is the holy spirit instead of testing them.

the signs and wonders movement would rather just assume every experience
is the holy spirit even if it may be of the devil.

I must have answered this one a thousand times, but thanks for #1001.

WHY would Satan perform S-W-M when a Christian prays for one "in the name of Jesus"?
People come to the Lord this way.
People get healed of all kinds of things this way.
And Jesus gets all of the glory ... forevermore.
But, not from you.

BTW, da foist 1000 had no answers ... How about you?
Go for it.

P.S. I was called by the Lord 18 years ago to be an evangelist in the small Bulgarian villages.
He baptized me with the Holy Spirit and gave me some of the 9 spiritual gifts.
I used these gifts to evangelize, to be used in healing and in the casting out of demons.
Praise be to Jesus ... is all I have to say.

 

[teamventure]

well i guess it comes down more directly to what practices people get involved in then if they are supposedly doing it in the name of Jesus. First of all, lots of things are done so called in the name of Jesus but are still false.

secondly i'd like to use an example, i've heard of meetings with signs and wonders where people get so called slain in the spirit to the point of thrashing around like a demon possesed person. are those type of expereicnes from God?