The disastrous failure of the early church

[John Zain]

i've heard of meetings with signs and wonders where people get so called slain in the spirit to the point of thrashing around like a demon possesed person. are those type of expereicnes from God?

I don't know ... I wasn't there.

I advise you to get your eyes off man and his (man's) church,
and get your eyes on Jesus and His word, and on the Spirit and what He says to you.

To answer your (and others') question ...

John 20:
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book;
31 but these (signs) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

How can anyone think that signs, wonders, and miracles
have not helped people believe in Jesus and His "foolish" gospel message?
'Tis supposed to be continuing on today.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8)

 

[teamventure]

yes Jesus did many signs, but so does Satan. it's really that simple.

 

[Rex]

I must have answered this one a thousand times, but thanks for #1001.

John it's dear to your heart and I understand, but the truth is many of your threads end in this same conversation.
Gifts, tongues, healing, signs. So you see that may be why you feel worn out repeating yourself.

I myself have tried to push "for lack of a better word" a truth. No denying its the truth but its not received very well simply because its not the time maybe the wrong place as well in my casesssssssssss .
When you have a message from the Lord He also provides the right time. When you have a gift, and your at the party you don't just simply break into the middle of pinning the tail on the donkey and say, hey how about my gift open it up and lets talk about it. I'm not implying that's what is happening here I'm just running off at the mouth.

I'm off topic but it came to mind, I hope you don't mind

Lastly If the Lord is in it you won't care what others think, you'll just thank them for looking.
Or He'll give you the words and verses and the strength and the power,,,, you just enjoy the ride ectectect

 

[John Zain]

John it's dear to your heart and I understand, but the truth is many of your threads end in this same conversation.
Gifts, tongues, healing, signs. So you see that may be why you feel worn out repeating yourself.

Thanks, Rex, but the 1001 were not presented here.
And I'ze not worn out ... Hey, I think the Lord's in it, don't you?

 

[Rex]

yes I think the Lord is involved in a lot lately

I also notice that the Lord never failed to heal nor anyone else in the bible

 

[Helen]

What is "S-W-M"?

I was SO GLAD that you asked! LOL
I was reading the thread and hoped that someone would ask...then I thought...well I guess everyone knows each other here, so this must be something special for this forum!
I just want to say that I am so enjoying all of you on here and the threads.

Sorry for interupting the 'flow' ....I am watching this space!

 

[teamventure]

Thanks, Rex, but the 1001 were not presented here.
And I'ze not worn out ... Hey, I think the Lord's in it, don't you?

it's not about signs and wonders, it's about faith.

 

[epostle1]

If the Church

Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless Church for hundreds of years!

Yes, this is the condition of the church today, but it started some 1800 years ago.
This selfish attitude caused God’s Church to become man’s church.
So God said, “Okay, if you insist on going in this direction, I’ll back off.”
(Remember, it has always been God’s plan to accomplish His goals on earth
with a co-operative effort between Himself and man who has free will.)

However, Satan had a huge part in this …
“the god (ruler) of this world (age)” (John 12:31, 2 Corinthians 4:4)
has always had a tremendous influence in the affairs of man.
Satan did not want the churches to continue to have
the spiritual power they enjoyed during the NT times.
This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
truth of the gospel, which obviously can help people come to the Lord,
and are what produce miraculous healings of all kinds.

Those in charge of the big churches 1800 years ago wanted to be in control.
What these men did NOT want …
-- God to be in control of the churches (this includes His use of S-W-M)
-- ditto for God’s anointed apostles and prophets (who ran the NT churches)
-- to acknowledge S-W-M
-- anyone in the church with more spiritual anointing than they had
-- to look spiritually inferior to anyone
-- to risk losing their power, prestige, jobs, etc.

These are the reasons why men in control of the large post-apostolic churches
increasingly chose to fight against God’s anointing of certain believers
who had some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11).
So, they came up with the excuse that S-W-M ceased with the passing of the apostles.

Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
And this special anointing baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
The experience is simply called “the baptism with the Holy Spirit”,
and the initial evidence (confirmation) of receiving this is speaking in tongues.
The tongues here is a one-time sign, just a confirmation of what happened.
This is NOT one of the 9 spiritual gifts (tongues) in 1 Corinthians 12:10.
This Spirit baptism also was claimed to have ceased with the passing of the apostles.
And other excuses were devised by Satan and man to weaken the churches’ spiritual power.

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?
I urge you to persistently seek Jesus’ Spirit baptism for yourself.

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!

If God's Church crumbled in the second century, do you have the names of the Christians from that time that wrote about it?
What does the historical record say
over and above the hysterical record?

 

[Rex]

The biblical record says that there were already those that were anti christ "christ like" at work when the apostles still lived.

That would indicate a careful examination of history is necessary and not simply a given

it's not about signs and wonders, it's about faith.

and faith is something that you are directly involved in so you can exercise faith like a muscle.
You can't force Gods hand "His will" but you can be a vessel at the ready by equipping yourself
its a hand over hand over hand growing relationship. These are the things I find in my walk.
Some people I have met sometime ask ????? and I tell them if you want be a spiritual giant seek out God in the same manor.
I'm no giant but I know you don't sit on your bum and expect the Lord, The Rock of Ages to cleft for you because you've been watching TV

 

[epostle1]

"Now the person in each declares the independent being and subsistence. But divinity is the property of the Father; and whenever the divinity of these three is spoken of as one, testimony is borne that the property of the Father belongs also to the Son and the Spirit: wherefore, if the divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is established, and the unity is not dissevered; and the oneness Which is naturally the Father's is also acknowledged to be the Son's and the Spirit's."
Gregory the Wonderworker (Thaumaturgus), Sectional Confession of Faith, 8 (A.D. 270).

That's about 1800 years ago. Could this be the false teaching the OP is talking about?

 

[Rex]

Kepha I really not in the mood to to chase your so important snowman around the pond.
If you believe in your church good for you, I don't and I get tired of dragging out the same tired story.
Now If you want to discuss what your church believes and teaches as apposed to the letter of scripture I might be interested.
But again this game ends in the mystery of catholic traditions which you cling to like life itself.

I'll pray for you that when the Lord lifts that veil and you like Dorthy now realize that the wizard of oz is a fake the Lord grace may still be found for you.
My word I refuse to even become a member of a protestant church much less the catholic church.

 

[Groundzero]

you're right John i won't listen to you but the word of God. the question is, will you listen to the scripture i posted? a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. are you seeking after signs and wonders John or after the truth of Gods word found in scripture?

I don't know why u asked this again, seeing that I addressed it. But how about this: I'm going to follow the truth in God's word, be OVER-FLOWING with his spirit, and see signs, wonders, and miracles follow because of his Almighty presence in my life? Sounds good. to me. Sounds like a challenge to me.

 

[John Zain]

I also notice that the Lord never failed to heal nor anyone else in the bible

NO ... He couldn't do much in His birth village ... because of UNBELIEF.
(P.S. Luke said the Holy Spirit did the miracles, not Jesus.)

This is what it's all about ... UNBELIEF.

The Holy Spirit flees from UNBELIEF.

That's why evangelists have good success in foreign countries where there is NO UNBELIEF.

 

[Rex]

NO ... He couldn't do much in His birth village ... because of UNBELIEF.
(P.S. Luke said the Holy Spirit did the miracles, not Jesus.)

This is what it's all about ... UNBELIEF.

The Holy Spirit flees from UNBELIEF.

That's why evangelists have good success in foreign countries where there is NO UNBELIEF.

I believe that as well
But you can't deny the Lord His will his decision, gifts are not something that you in your own reasoning and understanding use in a vacum absent from the Lord.

Thats the other side of the same coin. and as you mention the recipient is with some gifts and manifestations involved.

I have trouble with people yielding the power of God around like their some kind of Harry Potter when I can clearly see, there blowing smoke.
This type of christian is very near the border of "the power of self" "the power of positive thinking" ect ect

In my line of thinking someone that calls on the name of the Lord in public before witnesses, a healing and it doesn't pass is pretty much a fraud the same as a prophet, or an interpreter of prophesy.

I liken such people as children "teens" that haven't learned to pick up their room but want to take daddies Ferrari out for the weekend.

 

[Axehead]

Paul, meeting with the elders of the church in Ephesus.

Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Act_20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

God is able by the word of His grace to build us up and give us an inheritance with all them which are sanctified.

Everyone ought to be able to say Hallelujah to that!

 

[teamventure]

I don't know why u asked this again, seeing that I addressed it. But how about this: I'm going to follow the truth in God's word, be OVER-FLOWING with his spirit, and see signs, wonders, and miracles follow because of his Almighty presence in my life? Sounds good. to me. Sounds like a challenge to me.

the question is, does a wicked and adulterous generation seek after a sign that Jesus is Lord or after signs in general because they are fascinated with the supernatural?

the problem isn't with signs and wonders, it's with people fascinated with the supernatural and trying to as another poster put it play harry potter. that is wicked and adulterous.

it's those people who seek after a sign so that verse still makes sense.

 

[Rex]

lets remember the original temptation.
Gen 3:4
you will be like God

John 15:5

It's a fine line to walk between, your literally as close as you can be with the Lord and at the same time your facing the first temptation "you will be like God"
Is it any wonder why many fall on the wrong side of the fence.

Visualize this, the Lord and you are together, your near a fence and the Lord says, here let me lift you up, hold my hand so you can walk the fence. after a few steps He lets go.
Well what happens is your so high, the temptation is to see how small the world really is and the next thing is you've jumped the fence to take matters into your own hands. Needless to say, it's a short lived trip. It's better to stand and wait when temptation stands on the other side.

 

[Axehead]

the question is, does a wicked and adulterous generation seek after a sign that Jesus is Lord or after signs in general because they are fascinated with the supernatural?

the problem isn't with signs and wonders, it's with people fascinated with the supernatural and trying to as another poster put it play harry potter. that is wicked and adulterous.

it's those people who seek after a sign so that verse still makes sense.

It is with anything that "captures" our hearts and becomes an idol that we look to instead of looking to Jesus.

We need to come to Him with all of our heart and not be JOINED to anything else in our hearts but Him.

Anything or anyone that diminishes or takes away from Jesus Christ is always a "red flag"!

 

[Groundzero]

the question is, does a wicked and adulterous generation seek after a sign that Jesus is Lord or after signs in general because they are fascinated with the supernatural?

the problem isn't with signs and wonders, it's with people fascinated with the supernatural and trying to as another poster put it play harry potter. that is wicked and adulterous.

it's those people who seek after a sign so that verse still makes sense.

Which really isn't to do much with the OP.

The OP is how that 'Christianity' has stifled the S-W-M that Jesus said would follow his Believers.

 

[teamventure]

Which really isn't to do much with the OP.

The OP is how that 'Christianity' has stifled the S-W-M that Jesus said would follow his Believers.

oh no it has everything to do with the OP. i am in direct oposition to the OP. and it's funny that as soon as i start stepping on toes you simply write off my post as not in correlation with the OP.
sounds like you are hiding behind the Sings and Wonders movement instead of exposing the fact that this fascination with signs and wonders is dangerous.

Most Christians don’t want to hear that God has anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts … when they have not been.
This attitude has resulted in a weak and powerless Church for hundreds of years!

Yes, this is the condition of the church today, but it started some 1800 years ago.
This selfish attitude caused God’s Church to become man’s church.
So God said, “Okay, if you insist on going in this direction, I’ll back off.”
(Remember, it has always been God’s plan to accomplish His goals on earth
with a co-operative effort between Himself and man who has free will.)

However, Satan had a huge part in this …
“the god (ruler) of this world (age)” (John 12:31, 2 Corinthians 4:4)
has always had a tremendous influence in the affairs of man.
Satan did not want the churches to continue to have
the spiritual power they enjoyed during the NT times.
This spiritual power (the S-W-M) were a powerful confirmation of the
truth of the gospel, which obviously can help people come to the Lord,
and are what produce miraculous healings of all kinds.

Those in charge of the big churches 1800 years ago wanted to be in control.
What these men did NOT want …
-- God to be in control of the churches (this includes His use of S-W-M)
-- ditto for God’s anointed apostles and prophets (who ran the NT churches)
-- to acknowledge S-W-M
-- anyone in the church with more spiritual anointing than they had
-- to look spiritually inferior to anyone
-- to risk losing their power, prestige, jobs, etc.

These are the reasons why men in control of the large post-apostolic churches
increasingly chose to fight against God’s anointing of certain believers
who had some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11).
So, they came up with the excuse that S-W-M ceased with the passing of the apostles.

Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
And this special anointing baptism has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
The experience is simply called “the baptism with the Holy Spirit”,
and the initial evidence (confirmation) of receiving this is speaking in tongues.
The tongues here is a one-time sign, just a confirmation of what happened.
This is NOT one of the 9 spiritual gifts (tongues) in 1 Corinthians 12:10.
This Spirit baptism also was claimed to have ceased with the passing of the apostles.
And other excuses were devised by Satan and man to weaken the churches’ spiritual power.

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?
I urge you to persistently seek Jesus’ Spirit baptism for yourself.

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!

you are correct, Satan does have a huge part in this, to tempt people that a fascination with signs and wonders is not dangerous instead of being fixed on Yeshua.