The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

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Heyzeus

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Question:
What is your view of what land the flood did Cover?

Is your answer the area of the present day Black Sea?

Yes .. but much bigger. All the area where the black Sea is currently .. or like .. most of it .. there may have been a few lakes and so on .. was dry land .. people were living there.

So that entire area was flooded . by what we now refer to as "The Black Sea" .. but when the event happened .. as described to you .. and dating to round 5000 BC .. there was catastrophic flooding of a much larger region as the Black Sea was created... Like for example .. to Mount Ararat .. .. not covering it .. but you could be on a raft for a long time - and hit land somewhere up the mountain.

3 times you asked this question .. I hope I have made the geographic size of such an event - somewhat quantifiable .. at least in a range.

Just the Black Sea Itself is really big mate .. google map it and compare to the size of neighboring countries such as Greece and Bulgarya .. Romania.

Member back in the day .. 5000 BC we are talking .. folks didn't have motorcycles to get round .. nor horses .. .. and generally you stayed real close to home .. venturing perhaps to an adjacent settlement/town ? it appears there were a few actual towns at this time .. Chattyl hyuk (never get the spelling right on that one) for example was a gridded town from that time period...

So a flood covering an area greater than the size of the black sea ? .. Lucky to have had a boat cause not many would.. and everyone is dead dead dead .. and you could never see another soul other than your own kin for the rest of your life.
 

Heyzeus

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You have been desperately avoiding "The will of the Father" as per "This Sermon" - running frantically to other scripture - running frantically from the words of Jesus in this sermon .. which tell us what the will of the Father is.

and you will run from the teachings of Jesus in this sermon once again in your next post ..
There is no contradiction between John 5:24 (kjv) and Matthew 7:21-23.

It is reconciled by 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)...those who have faith in the true Lord are transformed within so that it is their inclination to do the will of the Father.

next.....

You see my prophetic ability :) and Run from the Teachings of Jesus in Matt 5-7 is exactly what you did.

but either way .. nothing in 2 Corinthians resolves the contradiction between the teachings of Jesus in Matt 5-7 - and Sola fide :)

See - even when you run away from Jesus into the loving arms of Brother Paul .. in a desperate attempt to avoid the teachings of Jesus - you are still wrong.
 

justbyfaith

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You see my prophetic ability :) and Run from the Teachings of Jesus in Matt 5-7 is exactly what you did.

Follow with me now...the teachings found in the epistles, are, in fact, the teachings of Jesus.

Because Jesus said that His Spirit would lead the disciples into all truth (John 16:13)...and Peter, in saying that Paul's writings are holy scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16) included Paul in that promise. And Paul also substantiated all of scripture as being inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Timothy 3:16).

Therefore, since the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus, He is therefore Jesus; and therefore the things that are written down as holy scripture are the teachings of Jesus; being inspired by the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Jesus).

I also did not "run from the teachings of Jesus" in quoting from the epistles...but I have integrated the teachings of the epistles into my understanding of what Jesus has taught us.

but either way .. nothing in 2 Corinthians resolves the contradiction between the teachings of Jesus in Matt 5-7 - and Sola fide :)

It most certainly does.
 

Heyzeus

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Follow with me now...the teachings found in the epistles, are, in fact, the teachings of Jesus.
I also did not "run from the teachings of Jesus" in quoting from the epistles...but I have integrated the teachings of the epistles into my understanding of what Jesus has taught us.

Once again the prophecy is True .. I did not claim you were running from the teachings of Jesus in the epistles .. so you are creating a big tent of deception once again .. a strawman fallacy.

I said you were avoiding the teachings of Jesus in a specific Sermon.. the Sermon on the Mount ..

Which once again you have run from the teachings of Jesus in Matt 5-7.. engaging in deception by moving the goalpost ... anything to avoid the Teachings of Jesus in this Sermon.

and next post you will do it again :)
 

Michiah-Imla

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Colossians 1:21-23 KJ
[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel

We must continue in the faith grounded and settled to endure to the end.

Once Saved Always Saved is a faulty doctrine that only works with private interpretations of scripture.
 

brightfame52

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Colossians 1:21-23 KJ
[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel

We must continue in the faith grounded and settled to endure to the end.

Once Saved Always Saved is a faulty doctrine that only works with private interpretations of scripture.
The ones who continue unto the end are the ones God preserves and confirms unto the end. 1 Cor 1:7-9
so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

justbyfaith

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I said you were avoiding the teachings of Jesus in a specific Sermon.. the Sermon on the Mount ..

Everything that Jesus has to say is not confined to the Sermon on the Mount!

Which once again you have run from the teachings of Jesus in Matt 5-7.. engaging in deception by moving the goalpost ... anything to avoid the Teachings of Jesus in this Sermon.

and next post you will do it again :)

I do not avoid the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount...I actually read the Sermon itself almost every day believe it or not. But I do not believe that the whole of what Jesus (even God) has to say is relegated completely to the Sermon on the Mount.

The teachings of God (Jesus Christ) are found throughout His word, as 2 Timothy 3:16 will tell you.

Now, if you are not going to be convinced by anything outside of Matthew and Mark as being authoritative...well, that is sad for you....but we will continue to contend for the truth against you with people who do believe the testimony of 2 Timothy 3:16...for they will believe the testimony of all of scripture as it relates to the subject at hand.
 

justbyfaith

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Colossians 1:21-23 KJ
[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel

We must continue in the faith grounded and settled to endure to the end.

Once Saved Always Saved is a faulty doctrine that only works with private interpretations of scripture.

Continuing in the faith is not in that passage a condition for going to heaven but a condition for being sanctified wholly.

Of course, that in and of itself may be a condition for entrance into heaven.
 

Heyzeus

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Everything that Jesus has to say is not confined to the Sermon on the Mount!

No one said it was .. but, the teachings of Jesus are the one's you are avoiding - like the plague.

I do not avoid the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount...I actually read the Sermon itself almost every day believe it or not. But I do not believe that the whole of what Jesus (even God) has to say is relegated completely to the Sermon on the Mount.

The teachings of God (Jesus Christ) are found throughout His word, as 2 Timothy 3:16 will tell you.

You do avoid them .. like the plague .. you can not bear to discuss these teachings .. and go running to other scripture every time they come up in a desperate attempt to avoid facing the contradictory reality.

If it is between the words of Jesus in Matt/Mark - and Pious Fraud such as 2 Timothy .. I will take the words of Jesus.
 

justbyfaith

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No one said it was .. but, the teachings of Jesus are the one's you are avoiding - like the plague.

You do avoid them .. like the plague .. you can not bear to discuss these teachings .. and go running to other scripture every time they come up in a desperate attempt to avoid facing the contradictory reality.

It it is between the words of Jesus in Matt/Mark - and Pious Fraud such as 2 Timothy .. I will take the words of Jesus.
How convenient. You call 2 Timothy a pious fraud so that you don't have to take all of scripture into account.

2 Timothy is one of the most righteous books in all of scripture and is no fraud.

If you don't believe what it says in 2 Timothy 3:16, I'm sorry to break it to you, you are not a born again Christian...because the born again kind are the fundamentalist kind...the literalist kind.

I know that you will very likely reject my words...but you can't say to me on my day of judgment that I didn't warn you about this...so if you perish, your blood is on your own head.
 

Heyzeus

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How convenient. You call 2 Timothy a pious fraud so that you don't have to take all of scripture into account.

2 Timothy is one of the most righteous books in all of scripture and is no fraud.

If you don't believe what it says in 2 Timothy 3:16, I'm sorry to break it to you, you are not a born again Christian...because the born again kind are the fundamentalist kind...the literalist kind.

I know that you will very likely reject my words...but you can't say to me on my day of judgment that I didn't warn you about this...so if you perish, your blood is on your own head.

Once again .. predictably - you avoid the Teachings of Jesus by running to other scripture - in this case .. what is widely regarded - and has been for some time - as Pious Fraud.

You are not "born again" .. in order to be born again you first have to die.



Then you claim to know how Judgement will go - when you don't even believe in Judgement .. Perhaps I have a free pass like you !
 
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Cooper

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There is no contradiction between John 5:24 (kjv) and Matthew 7:21-23.It is reconciled by 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)...those who have faith in the true Lord are transformed within so that it is their inclination to do the will of the Father.

next.....
Doing the will of the Father is what it is all about. Jesus did the same.

The elect of God have been chosen or predestined to serve Him. People are not elected at the beginning of time for salvation, but rather to serve God by fulfilling His predestined plan and purpose, among them were Moses and Judas. They were the right people to do the work God had elected them to do, regardless of their righteousness. (Cooper)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Eph. 1:4)

The New Testament words "chosen, choose, and election" are the same. The Old Testament word is simply "chosen." From the above Scripture many have felt that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again I want to point out that predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved.

From the following Scriptures we learn what the choosing, or election, of God is about:'' For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:9-13).

At once we point out that election, or choosing, has to do with service; THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, "The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost." No, but simply, "the elder shall SERVE the younger." Thus choosing, or election, has to do with service. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" wasn't said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died.

God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith.

In the 15th chapter of John's Gospel, the Lord Jesus said that He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath - after being given many chances to believe, refused, and thus was used for God's purpose.

The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God's chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ!

The same prophet, Isaiah, says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service - and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross!

Now back to the original text, as found in Ephesians 1:4. What has God elected or chosen us for? He has chosen us for service - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

Thus, we conclude that God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but that salvation is on the basis of "WHOSOEVER WILL!"- "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

by Dr. Mark G. Cambron,
Seaside Mission,
North Miami Beach, Florida
.
 
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justbyfaith

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Once again .. predictably - you avoid the Teachings of Jesus by running to other scripture - in this case .. what is widely regarded - and has been for some time - as Pious Fraud.

You are not "born again" .. in order to be born again you first have to die.

Not only is the literalist perspective wandering down a dark path .. but - if you wish to believe Jesus is a flip flopping xenophobic baby and fetus killing genocidal maniac with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics .. don't let me stop you :)

Then you claim to know how Judgement will go - when you don't even believe in Judgement .. Perhaps I have a free pass like you !
The Sermon on the Mount only contains the teachings of our Lord on morality and ethics...there are a variety of other subjects that the Bible speaks to us about; and to disregard the Bible indicates that you are "not born again".

As for me, I believe that the Lord has done a work in my heart....whether that work has been to make me born of Him remains to be seen.

For the one who is born of God cannot sin (1 John 3:9)...

And therefore, if I should sin in the next few hours, months, or years...that would be an indication that you are correct...that I am not born again.

But it is possible that I am in fact born of God and that my character will bear this out in hours, months, even years to come...

For I truly believe in the power and ability of the Lord to sanctify His people (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6).

And if He has not yet done it in me, I believe that I am justified over the fact that I believe that He can and will perform that work in me (Romans 4:20-22).
 

justbyfaith

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You are not "born again" .. in order to be born again you first have to die.

You mean physically?

I beg to differ.

If I hear the words of Jesus and believe on the One who sent Him, I have everlasting life (right now) and shall not come into condemnation; and have (already) passed from death unto life.

Not only does Jesus say this to us in John 5:24 (kjv); but He tacks onto His statement the words "Verily, verily, I say unto you;" so as to tell us that He is speaking absolute truth here if you don't believe that He always speaks absolute truth when He speaks.
 

Taken

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Yes .. but much bigger. All the area where the black Sea is currently .. or like .. most of it...
So that entire area was flooded . by what we now refer to as "The Black Sea" ..
there was catastrophic flooding of a much larger region as the Black Sea was created... Like for example .. to Mount Ararat .. .. not covering it ..
So a flood covering an area greater than the size of the black sea ? ..

So you answer is:
There WAS a Flood.
The Flood covered an Area of Dry Land, Larger than the Present Day surface Area (approx, 168+ thousand square miles) of the Black Sea.
But the Flood DID NOT cover A particular Mountain (Dry Land) called Ararat.


OK (if that is Not correct- please Correct)

If That is correct...moving on:
Questions of your view:
Please give a brief direct answer so I can understand your view;
• was the area that Formed the Black Sea, + surrounding area the ONLY flooded Dry Land?
• Where Did the Oceans come From? Did the Oceans already Exist, Pryor to the Flood?
• where did the Flood WATERS come From?

Taken
 

Pearl

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And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-15
 

Heyzeus

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So you answer is:
There WAS a Flood.
The Flood covered an Area of Dry Land, Larger than the Present Day surface Area (approx, 168+ thousand square miles) of the Black Sea.
But the Flood DID NOT cover A particular Mountain (Dry Land) called Ararat.


OK (if that is Not correct- please Correct)

If That is correct...moving on:
Questions of your view:
Please give a brief direct answer so I can understand your view;
• was the area that Formed the Black Sea, + surrounding area the ONLY flooded Dry Land?
• Where Did the Oceans come From? Did the Oceans already Exist, Pryor to the Flood?
• where did the Flood WATERS come From?

Taken

Correct on the first part.

1) Yes - this was a local flood and not a global flood - albeit "Local " is quite a large area in this case.
2) The Oceans were there prior to the flood .. as was the Mediterranian Sea (which is the body of water in question)
3) The flood water came from the Mediterranian Sea. After the last Ice Age the waters of the Mediterranian sea rose and rose -- over 10000 years. There was a fresh water lake in the region at the time but much smaller than the current sea. There was a natural Geological Dam holding back the waters .. then one day the dam broke - releasing all this water that had built up over 1000's of years.

The dating for this event has been suggested at around5000 BC. Exactly how the dam broke is speculation - but imagine if the breaking of this dam coincided with a massive earth quake .. this would be beyond catastrophic.
 

Heyzeus

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You mean physically?

I beg to differ.

If I hear the words of Jesus and believe on the One who sent Him, I have everlasting life (right now) and shall not come into condemnation; and have (already) passed from death unto life.

Not only does Jesus say this to us in John 5:24 (kjv); but He tacks onto His statement the words "Verily, verily, I say unto you;" so as to tell us that He is speaking absolute truth here if you don't believe that He always speaks absolute truth when He speaks.

Nothing in this post supports your claim - that in order to be "Born Again" one first has to die. Jesus was referring to the resurrection was he not ? .. does one not first have to die prior to resurrection - when one is "Reborn" - but not in flesh .. not as a walking zombie .. but reborn into the spiritual realm.

ahhh .. yes it all makes sense now :)
 

Heyzeus

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The Sermon on the Mount only contains the teachings of our Lord on morality and ethics...there are a variety of other subjects that the Bible speaks to us about; and to disregard the Bible indicates that you are "not born again".

As for me, I believe that the Lord has done a work in my heart....whether that work has been to make me born of Him remains to be seen.

For the one who is born of God cannot sin (1 John 3:9)...

And therefore, if I should sin in the next few hours, months, or years...that would be an indication that you are correct...that I am not born again.

But it is possible that I am in fact born of God and that my character will bear this out in hours, months, even years to come...

For I truly believe in the power and ability of the Lord to sanctify His people (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6).

And if He has not yet done it in me, I believe that I am justified over the fact that I believe that He can and will perform that work in me (Romans 4:20-22).

The teachings of Jesus in the sermon on the mount tell you how to get through the pearly gates - works being part of the salvation formulation given there-in .. contradicting Sola Fide "Faith Alone".. but not in contradiction with Grace.
 

justbyfaith

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The teachings of Jesus in the sermon on the mount tell you how to get through the pearly gates - works being part of the salvation formulation given there-in .. contradicting Sola Fide "Faith Alone".. but not in contradiction with Grace.
The teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount tell you what your behaviour is to be like after you have been saved...

And while you may not accept the authority of Paul in his epistle to the Romans, I will post something from there anyway for the sake of those who believe the testimony of 2 Timothy 3:16...

Rom 10:8, But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.