Theres alot of imformation here so digest it slowly ask me any questions if confused or completley disagree. I'm going to post John 6 to begin this thread. I'm going to be referencing and posting scriptures from the chapter throughout the whole conversation so I'm going to post the chapter in whole up front. 1Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick. 3Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish Passover Feast was near. 5When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" 6He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do. 7Philip answered him, "Eight months' wages[a] would not buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!" 8Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, spoke up, 9"Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?" 10Jesus said, "Have the people sit down." There was plenty of grass in that place, and the men sat down, about five thousand of them. 11Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish. 12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, "Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted." 13So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten. 14After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." 15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself. 16When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19When they had rowed three or three and a half miles, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid." 21Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading. 22The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?" 26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." 30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[c]" 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread." 35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)Catholics believe that the eucharist is the actual body and blood of christ. virtually all of the more than 33,000 different protestant denominations believe that Christ is only present symbollically in the eucharist. To explain why catholics believe in this lets look at John 4:31-34 and Mathew 16: 5-12 31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something." 32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about." 33Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?" 34"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. (John 4:31-34)5When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread. 6"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 7They discussed this among themselves and said, "It is because we didn't bring any bread." 8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Mt 16:5-12)In these passages Jesus is talking about food in a symbolic or figurative way. The disciples interpret him to mean real food. Note how Jesus shows them in plain unmistakeable language that he is only speaking figuratively Compare this with John 6:5151I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." ( Jn 6:51)Jesus says we must eat His flesh in order to have eternal life. In Jn 6:52(posted above on top of thread) the jews interpret him literally. Jesus then repeats again and again ( verses 53-56 see on top of thread) in the clearest possible language- that we must eat his bread and drink his blood to have eternal life.Take special note of verse 55 : " for my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" -this is not the language of symbolism.Protestants often cite John 6:35 " I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger; and he who believes in me shall not thirst." They claim that when Jesus calls himself "the bread of life", He is simply saying that if we believe in him He will nourish us spiritually, just as bread nourishes us physically. Protestants clam that we "eat" and "drink" , our spiritual food, by coming too and believing in him.However, we must read the rest of the eucharistic discourse in chater 6, especially verses 48-58( located on top of thread) where Jesus tells us what he means by calling himself "bread". The bread Jesus is speaking of is not merely a symbol for spiritual nourishment. Jesus tells us plainly that the bread is his own flesh (John 6:51) which we must eat in order to have eternal life. When Jesus explains that the bread of life is literally his flesh, we must accept his words. Many protestants claim that in John 6:60-70 Jesus explains that he was only speaking symbollically in the previous verses. They focus on verse 63 " it is the spirit which gives life, the flesh counts for nothing; the words I have given you are spirit and life." Catholics debate this objection as follows.a) Jesus' Eucharistic talk ends with verse 58 ( see verse 59) the dialogue of 60-70 occurs later and deals with faith, not the eucharist.
the word "spirit" is nowhere used in the bible to mean "symbolic" the spiritual is just as real as the material.c) In verse 63, Jesus is comparing the nonbeliever( "the flesh") with the spiritual or faith filled man. In 1 cor 2:14 we learn what Jesus means by flesh in verse 63 14"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 cor 2:14)Note that Jesus says my flesh when discussing the eucharist. He says the flesh when refering to the nonbeliever who will not believe anything beyond his senses and reason. No christian believes that Jesus's flesh "counts for nothing" as said in verse 63 for his flesh was the means of our redemptiond) Note that the unbelieving disciples leave Jesus after verse 63-They would not have left at this point if Jesus had assured them he was only speaking symbollically This is the only time recorded int he new testament that any of Jesus's disciples leave him because they found his doctrine too hard to accept. of the twelve apostles apparently only Judas rejected the eucharistMany other verses indicates of the real presence of christ in the eucharist. 22While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body." 23And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. ( Mk 14:22-24)23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. 27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. (1 Cor 11: 23-29)26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. ( Mt 26: 26-28) 17And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; 18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. ( Lk 22:17-20) 30When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. 32They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?" 33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them, 34saying, The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon." 35They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. ( Lk 24: 30-35)Note the strong language of Paul in 1 Cor 11:27 " Whoever therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the lordIn the aramaic language that our lord spoke, to symbollically "eat the flesh" or " drink the blood" of someone meant to persecute and assault him. ( see Ps 2:72; Isiah 9:18-20; Isiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; 2 Sam 23:15-17;and Rev 17:6,16) Thus if Jesus were only speaking symbolically about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, as protestants say, then what he really meant was " whoever persecutes and assaults me will have eternal life." which makes nonsense of this passage!Consider Christ's use of bread and wine at the last supper. Bread and wine are not normal or natural symbols of flesh and blood. Yet in all four last supper accounts( Mt 26: 26-28; Mk 22:22-24; Lk 22:17-20; 1 Cor 11: 23-25) Jesus tells us plainly that " this is my body" and that "this is my blood." Never is there any hint that He is speaking symbollically. Either the symbols would have been clearly explained if he were speaking symbolically (which is not the case) Or Jesus spoke literallly ( Which is the case!)one last thought, All of the early Church Fathers believed in the Real Presenceunlike some catholic teachings I completley agree with this one. Is the eucharist the only way to salvation, No there are many ways to seek and accept Jesus. but it is the way Which Jesus asked us to accept him.I think we owe it to him.your brother in christ ( who is so tired of typing)Ryan Fitz
