The Fall - An Earthly Fixed State or a Progressive Degradation?

[Grump]

During my private study of catastrophism and the holes that are in uniformitarian theory as it relates to the Earth and how things have come to be, I came back to the second law of thermodynamics. Assuming that God is, in all things, divinely good and His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are not our own, we can assume that when God's ways are combined with man's ways, there is an element of complexity. If the second law of thermodynamics applies not only to thermodynamics but also to other forms of existence (such as evolution, unique species dying out pretty much every day, etc), can we also postulate that this law applies to the earthly and divine affairs of man?

In the beginning, God and Man lived in perfect harmony. You could say they established a perfect equilibrium, with man in his right place in relation to God. In a perfectly isolated environment (in an Earth that is just as much physical as the one we live on today), this relationship would have continued for ages. When this cohabitation of God and man was no longer isolated (ie the serpent came in to tempt Eve), another force was thrown into the mix. This created a upset in the equilibrium.

When all things were said and done, man had fallen. The flesh now inherits the sinful nature of the flesh before it. We could say that man had chosen to reject God at this point, and man would be continually dead and unable to do anything to please God since they were dead in bondage to sin (Holy Spirit not being accounted for yet).

Since the righteousness that is God cannot walk with the sinfulness of man without an intercessor, this would create a new equilibrium - an equilibrium of sin and death. According to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy would be attained (that is, equilibrium). This second law takes time to fully run its course though, which brings me to my question (though the implications can be discussed and possibly affirmed in many avenues of life).

Is the Fall an earthly fixed state that is passed down (that Jesus obviously did not inherit since he had no humanly seed) or is it a progressively worsening condition (obviously still passed down, but possibly getting worse with each manifestation)? I can see arguments from both sides (both religious and secular); I'm just wondering what you guys would theorize.

 

[Spirit Covenant]

The infection of man is passed down first by being conceived in Lust and then by the medium of the air which caries and teaches lies and faithlessness to the children which in tern pass it on in the same way. The eyes which are the windows of the soul also play a big part in corrupting and perverting the foundation even further. This is why the Lord views the masses of people and nations as the beast. The Lord has said this: " Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."

 

[Pelaides]

I wish you were more clear with this question,If you are asking if it is possible for a man born of flesh and blood to be perfect like adam was before the fall,the answer is yes,In the old testament Job was described by God as being a perfect man.

 

[Grump]

Put more clearly, my question is: Is the fallen state a constant, or is it getting progressively worse through each iteration/generation?

 

[Pelaides]

Man seems to alternate being in and out of Gods favor,A good example of this is the nation of Israel which is either being punished by God or rewarded by God.When a generation becomes evil,God usually punishes them so that they will become righteous again.And then the cycle repeats itself.

 

[williemac]

Man seems to alternate being in and out of Gods favor,A good example of this is the nation of Israel which is either being punished by God or rewarded by God.When a generation becomes evil,God usually punishes them so that they will become righteous again.And then the cycle repeats itself.

This is absolutely false. Punishment did not ever make anyone righteous. The bible states that there is none righteous. It also states that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Otherwise you make a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus through the suggestion that another solution could produce the same result. The real solution to man's condition is to do away with the species and start over. This is seen in the new birth. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. As far as being in God's favor, the only thing that is satisfying to God concerning man is humility and faith. Righteousness is imputed. It is a gift from God as a result of their faith in Him. Under the old covenant it was put on the account of men, but under the new, it is literally placed within a man in the new birth (Eph.4:24) Man cannot produce life nor righteousness from within his own resources. As far as the op. goes, the fallen condition cannot get any worse. It is the result of what is missing rather than what is there. However, the symptoms of it can vary, and seem to be escalating on the earth.

 

[Pelaides]

This is absolutely false. Punishment did not ever make anyone righteous. The bible states that there is none righteous. It also states that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Otherwise you make a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus through the suggestion that another solution could produce the same result. The real solution to man's condition is to do away with the species and start over. This is seen in the new birth. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. As far as being in God's favor, the only thing that is satisfying to God concerning man is humility and faith. Righteousness is imputed. It is a gift from God as a result of their faith in Him. Under the old covenant it was put on the account of men, but under the new, it is literally placed within a man in the new birth (Eph.4:24) Man cannot produce life nor righteousness from within his own resources. As far as the op. goes, the fallen condition cannot get any worse. It is the result of what is missing rather than what is there. However, the symptoms of it can vary, and seem to be escalating on the earth.

Making a mockery of Jesus?now thats a strong accusation to make against anyone?

If God wanted to destroy all of mankind he would not of allowed us to exist for as long as we have.He has always left the door open for us to redeem ourselves,

When Jesus blinded Paul was this not punishment?Did not paul as a result of this go on to become the greatest evangelist in the history of christiananity?

 

[Spirit Covenant]

Put more clearly, my question is: Is the fallen state a constant, or is it getting progressively worse through each iteration/generation?

Sin is sin there is no degree that is acceptable. So the answer is no.

 

[Grump]

Sin is sin there is no degree that is acceptable. So the answer is no.

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm wondering if the manifestation of this fallen state will continue to get worse and worse. My evidences for such draw from the fact that human health is gradually decaying, our emotional and intellectual state is decaying, our moral compass is decaying, arguably our faith is decaying. Even the world around us is decaying, in ways that we have no direct control over (the speed of light slowing down).

Sin is sin, yes. All sin is equally bad in the eyes of God. But as far as our human eyes and reasoning conceive it, is this fallen state getting worse (or rather, more apparent)?

 

[Spirit Covenant]

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm wondering if the manifestation of this fallen state will continue to get worse and worse. My evidences for such draw from the fact that human health is gradually decaying, our emotional and intellectual state is decaying, our moral compass is decaying, arguably our faith is decaying. Even the world around us is decaying, in ways that we have no direct control over (the speed of light slowing down).

Sin is sin, yes. All sin is equally bad in the eyes of God. But as far as our human eyes and reasoning conceive it, is this fallen state getting worse (or rather, more apparent)?

Nothing is getting worse anywhere. It is the same as It ever was. God cut mans Life span down to 120 years and of course faithlessness and sin can cut that in half. Corporations are manufacturing poison for food and that even makes it harder to live to the half way mark. But God created a decaying universe and fully planned it's beginning and it's end. There is nothing new under the sun. The manifestation of the fallen state of man will continue as it has until the day of wrath when God removes the whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water from the planet. Then those who are of faith will shine and those who are animals of the flesh of man will slay and eat each other.

As long as sin is present The manifestation of the fallen state of man is a constant. It may seem worse in the eyes of man because there are more and more people every day.

 

[bling]

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm wondering if the manifestation of this fallen state will continue to get worse and worse. My evidences for such draw from the fact that human health is gradually decaying, our emotional and intellectual state is decaying, our moral compass is decaying, arguably our faith is decaying. Even the world around us is decaying, in ways that we have no direct control over (the speed of light slowing down).

Sin is sin, yes. All sin is equally bad in the eyes of God. But as far as our human eyes and reasoning conceive it, is this fallen state getting worse (or rather, more apparent)?

Where does the Bible ever call it a “fall”?


The Bible talks about knowledge changing, but does it ever
say man’s nature changed with Adam & Eve’s sin?


Would our nature have to change in order for us to “all sin”,
since Adam and Eve sinned with their nature?


You said: “…God and Man lived in perfect harmony”, but since
Adam and Eve were only made only “very good” and not perfect how could they
have a perfect relationship. God and
Christ have a perfect relationship, but Christ was and is perfect. Could God create from the beginning a being that
is “perfect” like Christ is perfect or does this Christ perfection have to come
along with the fact that Christ was not a created being? (Are there some things God just cannot do?)


Is sin the only thing that makes us out of equilibrium with
God or are there other differences?


Institutions strive to be driven by the mission statement
(overall objective). So instead of
moving toward “equilibrium”, is God driven by His objective and would it be
best if man was driven by man’s God given objective?

 

[Angelina]

Put more clearly, my question is: Is the fallen state a constant, or is it getting progressively worse through each iteration/generation?

If we could put ourselves in the place of Noah or Lot before God moved on their behalf, we may get an idea of how far mankind can degenerate over a generation or a period of time. 2 Peter 2:5-9. I do not think that the fallen state of mankind is getting worse, I just think that God is allowing this corrupt world to reach it's fullness. Then he will come again...

Blessings!!!

 

[williemac]

Making a mockery of Jesus?now thats a strong accusation to make against anyone?

If God wanted to destroy all of mankind he would not of allowed us to exist for as long as we have.He has always left the door open for us to redeem ourselves,

When Jesus blinded Paul was this not punishment?Did not paul as a result of this go on to become the greatest evangelist in the history of christiananity?

The blinding of Paul was punishment? The bible does not call it punishment, therefore we cannot assume it was. As far as God destroying mankind, I never put it in those words. If you cannot understand what I was referring to, then we cannot have a bible discussion on this subject. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Mankind is not disappearing. The species is being re created (Eph.4:24) . Those who are not part of this will perish.
But I apolgize for the impression that I was making a personal accusation against you. What I was criticizing was the premise that makes a mockery of the cross, but I worded it incorrectly. That premise suggested that God uses punishment to make one righteous. This does not produce righteousness, as you called it. The bible insists that no man born after Adam can produce his own righteousness. This is a condition that can only be passed on through the new birth. The new birth was made possible for us by the forgiveness of sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not a matter of opinion. But I will admit that in going to the cross, Jesus took God's punishment for sin upon Himself on our behalf.

But as for Isreal, they had animal sacrifices for that purpose. The punishment for their sin was transferred to the animal. The wages of sin is death. That is the punishment. Therefore, a behavioral correction is not a punishment but rather a chastening. But it does not solve the sin issue. This is solved only through death.

By the way, good post, Angelina (re:#12)

 

[Mercy777]

Put more clearly, my question is: Is the fallen state a constant, or is it getting progressively worse through each iteration/generation?

Matthew 24: 36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

Ordained and progressive to finish God's plan of salvation.

God Bless,
Mercy

 

[Mercy777]

Is the Fall an earthly fixed state that is passed down (that Jesus obviously did not inherit since he had no humanly seed)


Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Jesus was tempted just as we are, but Jesus did not sin.



Hebrews 5:8-10
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Mary --Luke 1: 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
Mary also had the seed of sin, God declares all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Jesus became Mary's Savior.
John 19:27
and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.


Fully God and fully human.



Colossians 2:9
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,


After Jesus' death and resurrection;
1 Corinthians 15:45http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+15:45&version=NIV1984
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. ( their is only One Holy Spirit)


If Jesus was not fully human, he could not have been tempted. Only humans are tempted.

James 1:
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (satan tried this on Jesus and failed because Jesus has only one desire, the Father)

Jesus believed what the Father told Him. Everything the Father has, Jesus has.

John 12:27http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12:27&version=NIV1984
“Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

Jesus denied His own will and desires Just as we can with the help of the Holy Spirit in the Name of Jesus.
Why in Jesus Name?
Matthew 28:18http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28:18&version=NIV1984
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

God Bless,
Mercy

 

[Groundzero]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying, is that is man the worst he will ever be, or is he progressively getting worse with each generation/age?

If that is the question, I would say man is the worst he will ever be naturally. There is an equilibrium, however. God doesn't change. He's the same. And he's set a mark for what he will tolerate.

If we look through history, we can find points where a society reached that mark and received its due punishment. e.g. antidilluvian world, sodom, gomorrah, etc, babylon.

Once a society reaches a certain point, God's judgement will fall and establish equilibrium if you please.

 

[Pelaides]

The blinding of Paul was punishment? The bible does not call it punishment, therefore we cannot assume it was. As far as God destroying mankind, I never put it in those words. If you cannot understand what I was referring to, then we cannot have a bible discussion on this subject. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Mankind is not disappearing. The species is being re created (Eph.4:24) . Those who are not part of this will perish.
But I apolgize for the impression that I was making a personal accusation against you. What I was criticizing was the premise that makes a mockery of the cross, but I worded it incorrectly. That premise suggested that God uses punishment to make one righteous. This does not produce righteousness, as you called it. The bible insists that no man born after Adam can produce his own righteousness. This is a condition that can only be passed on through the new birth. The new birth was made possible for us by the forgiveness of sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not a matter of opinion. But I will admit that in going to the cross, Jesus took God's punishment for sin upon Himself on our behalf.

But as for Isreal, they had animal sacrifices for that purpose. The punishment for their sin was transferred to the animal. The wages of sin is death. That is the punishment. Therefore, a behavioral correction is not a punishment but rather a chastening. But it does not solve the sin issue. This is solved only through death.

By the way, good post, Angelina (re:#12)

Jeremiah30:11"For i am with thee,saith the Lord,to save thee:though i make a full end of all nations whither i have scattered thee,yet will i not make a full end of thee:but i will correct thee in measure,and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

This sounds like punishment to me.

 

[veteran]

During my private study of catastrophism and the holes that are in uniformitarian theory as it relates to the Earth and how things have come to be, I came back to the second law of thermodynamics. Assuming that God is, in all things, divinely good and His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are not our own, we can assume that when God's ways are combined with man's ways, there is an element of complexity. If the second law of thermodynamics applies not only to thermodynamics but also to other forms of existence (such as evolution, unique species dying out pretty much every day, etc), can we also postulate that this law applies to the earthly and divine affairs of man?

No. The reason is because this law is only discernable through this material realm, not the immaterial divine realm. Likewise with the concept of gravity, it's only discernable within this material world. Because Jesus ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives in sight by His disciples, that's enough to reveal a different set of operations for the divine realm not limited by the laws of this material realm. You're essentially speaking of two separate realms of existence, not both together joined as one.

This is why the Pantheist creed that God is in everything is disproven by the first law of thermodynamics (Rom.1:19-20).

In the beginning, God and Man lived in perfect harmony. You could say they established a perfect equilibrium, with man in his right place in relation to God. In a perfectly isolated environment (in an Earth that is just as much physical as the one we live on today), this relationship would have continued for ages. When this cohabitation of God and man was no longer isolated (ie the serpent came in to tempt Eve), another force was thrown into the mix. This created a upset in the equilibrium.

That God and man per the Genesis 2 account had a perfect relationship in Eden assumes an existence then equal to Christ's future Salvation in God's Eternity. But that is not a true Biblical assumption per Scripture. There will not be a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, nor Satan as that old serpent, existing in God's future Eternity. And the New Testament Scriptures reveal also that a change to a "spiritual body" is in order for the future, which reveals what? It reveals that even the type of state God created the man Adam in, it was not the state God intends for His future Eternity under Christ Jesus, for Adam was made subject to temptation and death with having been made in a type body that is of this present world, and not of the world to come.

The equillibrium was first ended when Satan sinned against God in the beginning. That was prior to the time of Adam in God's Garden. Thus the original fall was actually by Satan himself and his angels. That also points to how God's created Adam being purposed for this present world, so that death would be assigned to all men, and all men would need The Saviour.

When all things were said and done, man had fallen. The flesh now inherits the sinful nature of the flesh before it. We could say that man had chosen to reject God at this point, and man would be continually dead and unable to do anything to please God since they were dead in bondage to sin (Holy Spirit not being accounted for yet).

Since the righteousness that is God cannot walk with the sinfulness of man without an intercessor, this would create a new equilibrium - an equilibrium of sin and death. According to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy would be attained (that is, equilibrium). This second law takes time to fully run its course though, which brings me to my question (though the implications can be discussed and possibly affirmed in many avenues of life).

Not understanding how you apply the idea of Entropy, since that's about the dissolution of all things in this present world to a state of corruption, if applying it in a philosophical sense to God's Plan. In short, equilibrium will only be re-established by God's destruction of this present world of corruption.

Is the Fall an earthly fixed state that is passed down (that Jesus obviously did not inherit since he had no humanly seed) or is it a progressively worsening condition (obviously still passed down, but possibly getting worse with each manifestation)? I can see arguments from both sides (both religious and secular); I'm just wondering what you guys would theorize.

It is a fixed state. That's why all born today are still subject to the same death as Adam. The entropy idea you're talking about would apply to the corruptions of mankind and the earth over time, not necessarily to a physiological idea, but to "elements" as used in 2 Peter 3:10, that Greek word meaning 'principle, rudiment', or ways upon the earth (not material matter).

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The Big Bang theory was deduced through studying the aftermath. In the same way, the Fall is deduced through studying the aftermath.

What happened to mankind when it ate from the Tree of Knowledge?
Of course, man gained the knowledge of good and evil.

The knowledge itself is not what made us wicked. What made us wicked is having that knowledge and not being knowledgeable of everything else. It's sort of like a chemist having knowledge of chemistry, but not math. They think they know what they are doing, and then all of a sudden the chem lab becomes a chemical fallout.

Mankind had gained the knowledge of good and evil, and God saw that this knowledge was dangerous for us. With this knowledge, we would obstruct our being, and that's exactly what we have done.

Eating the forbidden fruit was mankind's primary fall. It is better to percieve it that we are in an Earthly fixed state simply because if we fell from grace, then we as God's celebrants are out of the ring dancing among ourselves until we fuse to the cross God handed down to us. Christ is like an escape rope from the corruption we live in.

 

[veteran]

It is the knowledge off the wrong tree that made that brought wickedness, through rebelliion against God. That's what that kind of knowledge represents, Satan himself. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a direct metaphor for Satan himself, in contrast to The LORD and His Tree of Life. Satan was originally created a good cherub, and was perfect in his ways (Eze.28). But then he became corrupt when iniquity was found in him, as he coveted God's Throne for himself (Isa.14), thus rebelling. And that's the kind of knowledge that tree represents.