The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[SovereignGrace]

The part where Calvinist logic is inconistant.
Logically: If Bob lacks freewill, then he is not to be blamed for being an atheist or any sins he commits.
If order for Bob to be blamed he must have had freewill. Else it's like blaming a dead body for falling down to gravity.

Bob needs to blame Bob for the choices he makes, not God. Seeing his heart is fallen in Adam, and he is dead in trespasses and sins, he can not blame God for the choices he makes.

FYI, Bob does lack free will.

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good, Who are accustomed to doing evil.[Jeremiah 13:23] What Jeremiah is saying here is that if a Ethiopian can change his skin color and the leopard can change his spots to another design like tiger stripes, then the lost can do good, even though they are used to doing evil. Knowing that neither the leopard nor the Ethiopian can do these things, neither can the lost. Why? Their wills are enslaved to sin and Satan.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The part where Calvinist logic is inconistant.
Logically: If Bob lacks freewill, then he is not to be blamed for being an atheist or any sins he commits.
If order for Bob to be blamed he must have had freewill. Else it's like blaming a dead body for falling down to gravity.

Calvinism is the most logical and consistent systematic theology out there. It's those who don't understand it who twist it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Calvinism is the most logical and consistent systematic theology out there. It's those who don't understand it who twist it.

How is a dead body that lacks free will to be blamed for falling to gravity?

 

[SovereignGrace]

How is a dead body that lacks free will to be blamed for falling to gravity?

We're not talking about the body, Sissy, but the spirit within man. The flesh profits nothing[John 6:63]. Even after being saved, our bodies are still fallen and fights against the born again spirit within them. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.[Galatians 5:17] That is why we have to bring our bodies under discipline. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.[1 Corinthians 9:27] Paul had to do this, and so do we. Our bodies are still soaked with sin, and we have to discipline it and bring it under subjection.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How is a dead body that lacks free will to be blamed for falling to gravity?

What I am trying to show you, Sissy, is this. The lost person is in an unregenerate state. He is alive physically, but dead inwardly. All they have to act upon is their flesh, and the person devoid of the Spirit of God hates God and is at enmity(has an ill-will towards) with God[Romans 8:5-9], and when they are witnessed to via the scriptures, they scoff at them[1 Corinthians 2:14]. It's only at the moment that God quickens them they are given faith and repentance, and are saved. God must do the first part, divine quickening, before they can do theirs, exercise faith and repentance, both given to them as gifts from God.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Then you believed under duress (according to your thinking, which means that you are the exception). But since no one believes under duress or compulsion (otherwise it would be a fake believing to avoid further distress, such as the Jews converting under the Roman Catholic Church), then you did indeed choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent. But if you did not fulfil those criteria, then according to Scripture you are still in your sins.

Now please note carefully this exchange (Acts 16:30,31)
And [the Phillipian jailer] brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1. Did Paul tell this man that he had to do absolutely nothing?

2. Or did Paul give him an honest and simple answer, which lies at the heart of the Gospel?

3. Did the jailer have to make a decision and a choice at that very moment?

4. And did he and his household make the right choice?

Here's the answer: And he [the jailer] took them [Paul and Silas] the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. (vv 33,34)

Just like the Ethiopian eunuch, this man and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (therefore believed God) and were immediately baptized. There is not a single instance in Scripture where a sinner did not have to make a choice and a decision to repent and believe on Christ (or walk away from Christ).

True, except that you assume a POWERLESS, DEAD AND INEFFECTIVE virtually wasted word from God through his spokesmen which could just as well not have been 'told' or 'given' since everything waited and depended on <a sinner to make a choice and a decision to repent and believe> WHILE IT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE: the sinner cannot but choose and decide or repent or believe in Jesus for redemption EXCEPT IF THE WORD OF GOD BE SPOKEN to him AND IF THE WORD OF GOD SPEAK to him. Which all depends on only God.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Bob needs to blame Bob for the choices he makes, not God. Seeing his heart is fallen in Adam, and he is dead in trespasses and sins, he can not blame God for the choices he makes.

FYI, Bob does lack free will.

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good, Who are accustomed to doing evil.[Jeremiah 13:23] What Jeremiah is saying here is that if a Ethiopian can change his skin color and the leopard can change his spots to another design like tiger stripes, then the lost can do good, even though they are used to doing evil. Knowing that neither the leopard nor the Ethiopian can do these things, neither can the lost. Why? Their wills are enslaved to sin and Satan.

Wonder why it is they rarely use Scripture, and, no matter how many times you show them with Scripture that man is not saved via decision, it is all they keep harping on?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wonder why it is they rarely use Scripture, and, no matter how many times you show them with Scripture that man is not saved via decision, it is all they keep harping on?

Its show how insane I am. The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and over and over again, and shocked when the outcome is the same EVERY time.

Its an exercise of futility. If not for others reading their heresies and possibly believing them, I'd leave them be.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wonder why it is they rarely use Scripture,

They undermine their theology.

 

[tabletalk]

But did you have the choice to accept or reject that seed of faith God planted in your heart?

Yes, after the initial belief. But, I also don't believe I can lose that belief/faith. I do not believe I can chose to lose the salvation God has given to me. Because, along with the faith in Jesus came faith in the Word of God; the Scriptures.
I have talked to Christians who cannot remember a time that they did not believe in Jesus. So, from an early age they grew up believing and walking in faith. When did they make a conscious choice to have faith, or believe in Him?
But, many Christians (maybe you also) make that obvious decision to believe and follow Him. Good.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Then you believed under duress (according to your thinking, which means that you are the exception). But since no one believes under duress or compulsion (otherwise it would be a fake believing to avoid further distress, such as the Jews converting under the Roman Catholic Church), then you did indeed choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent. But if you did not fulfil those criteria, then according to Scripture you are still in your sins.

I said, true; but it's not! Everyone believes <under duress or compulsion>, either according to his old dominant fallen nature, or according to a born-again un-natural new nature, <otherwise...> either way, <...it would be a fake believing>. Because to believe or not to believe in God and his grace through Jesus Christ, is impossible and cannot be avoided either way depending on a person being in bondage to his old self or in bondage to a new nature born from above in a completely un-natural way.

Everyone therefore, because he is <under duress> completely to choose, chooses and cannot help himself but to choose, for, or, against the Lord Jesus Christ. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND, NO 'neutrality', NO 'objectivity', NO <fulfil criteria> or conditions. Everyone chooses and must choose as his very being, ignorant and un-regenerated or born-again in the knowledge of Jesus Christ <according to Scripture>, dictates. NO ONE <fulfils> anything that gets him out of his sins. "To God only all the glory" the unflinching, undaunted, Protestant, battle cry!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Free willers, Anti-Reformed, Anti-Calvinists: "Free will!!! Free will!!!! Choosing!!! Me! Me!! MEEEE!!!!"

The Reformed, Calvinist's: "Jesus."

 

[Phoneman777]

For what would anyone want to understand you and your "VAIN PHILOSOPHIES OF THE WORLD"? I asked you for SCRIPTURE for your humanist sovereign free-will fantasies, and what have you answered with? With NO Scripture and only libellous blasphemous bull-dust BRAGGING. Your mastery of the philosophies is extra boring.
C. H. Spurgeon, "The hem of Christ's garment is better than all the robes of philosophy."

Your inability to discern the plain texts of Scripture which prove the God-given gift of free will choice to humanity is worse than boring - its sweeping many toward a Christ-less grave by convincing them to absolve themselves of their responsibility to choose Christ and turn from sin. So, I'm careful before whom I cast Scripture pearls.

 

[Dave L]

Your inability to discern the plain texts of Scripture which prove the God-given gift of free will choice to humanity is worse than boring - its sweeping many toward a Christ-less grave by convincing them to absolve themselves of their responsibility to choose Christ and turn from sin.

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The part where Calvinist logic is inconistant.

All you've done above is yet again expose your ignorance of Scripture and of how very consistent Reformed Theology is. That, and the fact you cannot correctly spell "inconsistent." How ironic.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Your inability to discern the plain texts of Scripture which prove the God-given gift of free will choice.

There are none, you read it into the text. Man is not saved by choice and you've been given several passages showing this to be true, but you'll have none of it.

You really ought to read your Bible instead of pounding your keyboard to write erroneous posts. Get some godly preacher to assist your understanding for once. You are way off track and don't even know it...

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

A person who lacks freewill cannot be blamed for what happens.

An INNOCENT person cannot be blamed ... of anything; but who lacks freewill BECAUSE HE IS A SINNER mustn't blame anyone, especially not God, for the fact he <lacks freewill>. That he lacks freewill the more makes of all men the only blameable party for what happens to him--that he surely shall not be saved but must die for his sins done in free will. It's just just Justice!
If that were all God is, just just, everyone would have gone up --or down-- in flames. But now God is merciful to save instead whomsoever HE, not they, WILLED.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Free willers, Anti-Reformed, Anti-Calvinists: "Free will!!! Free will!!!! Choosing!!! Me! Me!! MEEEE!!!!"

The Reformed, Calvinist's: "Jesus."

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Jeremiah 10:23 God is greater in his grace alone than all men in their power of free-will together.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Your inability to discern the plain texts of Scripture which prove the God-given gift of free will choice to humanity is worse than boring - its sweeping many toward a Christ-less grave by convincing them to absolve themselves of their responsibility to choose Christ and turn from sin. So, I'm careful before whom I cast Scripture pearls.

God's swine, Where's my pearls? Where's my pearls! WHERE ARE THEM PEARLS MINE OF SCRIPTURE lest I freak out!