The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[marks]

It says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. That’s the lost in proper context, not everybody w/o exception.

"power" is added by some translators, but not all. "the evil" or "the evil one" are both correct translations, either way reads exactly the same.

A good translation is, the whole world is laying in wickedness. We've got it up to our eyeballs, between the world and our flesh. And those without God, lost in it. Even our flesh is never far from it.

But this isn't a verse that defines a set of people in Satan's power that then let's us redefine who God meant in saying He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

When God compares His realm to what you may call Satan's realm, it's in terms of kingdoms and authority. The kingdom of darkness, the spirit who works in the children of disobedience.

Of course, we were those once. And I pray they become as we!

Much love!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

God’s choices are based upon Himself, not fallen mankind. Not all are reconciled my friend. To be reconciled means to be made friends when once they were enemies. Many die lost.

Isn't it amazing they preach meritorious salvation, yet call it grace?

Then they call us proud and arrogant because God elects according to nothing in man, but only according to his purpose and will. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31?

But they're not smug and arrogant because they claim God saw they would love him and choose him while lost, so decided to reward them for it? Then again, none of this is found in Scripture.

The time has come that they will not endure sound doctrine; 2 Timothy 4:3. They loathe it, they've made their own gospel.

I'd say unbelievable, but that would be untrue because now it's no longer unbelievable that they're so deceived. Their gospel is patently false, and isn't grace but merit.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

World does not mean everybody w/o exception.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.[1 John 5:19] It says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. That’s the lost in proper context, not everybody w/o exception.

If "the whole world" lies in the power of the evil one, that means those who are converted as well.

Except then we have this: Colossians 1:13.

It's funny, they cannot understand what "whole world" means in context, nor do they understand the figure of speech of the word "all."

 

[marks]

You missed my point. Faith is just as much a gift of God as grace is.

Romans 12 even says God gives a measure of faith to "each". Some say "each of His", some say, "to each". The verse says, "to each".

But lets go back to the passage you have in mind . . . this one says that faith is God's gift to us? I mean, I believe it is, but for different reasons, different passages. I'm curious what you see in this passage that shows faith to be God's gift?

Much love!

 

[marks]

If "the whole world: lies in the power of the evil one, that means those who are converted as well.

Except then we have this: Colossians 1:13.

It's funny, they cannot understand what "whole world" means in context, nor do they understand the figure of speech of the word "all."

I'll refer you to my previous post on 1 John 1:9, on "Power".

You mention Colossians 1:13 ~
"who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;"

This is an example of kingdoms, and does not redefine "world" into less then what it is.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Did the Apostles write in king james English, or greek?

Is the kjv translated from the Greek?

You actually bit the bait, indicating that you do not believe that the kjv is holy scripture.

I am saying it is, whether or not other translations are also holy scripture.

Yet, as he said, you ignore the Scripture given.

Look as I might, I couldn't find the scripture you are referring to.

that we disagree that salvation is a gift of God through faith (therein rests our disagreement, the exact nature of that faith),

The disagreement is more profound than that. They believe that grace comes before faith. Therefore, this would indicate that a man can be a recipient of grace apart from faith. If faith comes first, then it is the catalyst for entering into grace. But if grace comes first, faith isn't even needed.

World does not mean everybody w/o exception.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.[1 John 5:19] It says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. That’s the lost in proper context, not everybody w/o exception.

Apply it to the lost in the scripture in question (2 Corinthians 5:17-21); and it will apply to everyone in the world that has not yet been saved. That applies to everyone; since none of us were born saved. We moved over from being in the world to being in the church. So all of us were basically in the world at one point. Therefore, even if it means the lost, world does indeed mean everyone without exception; until redemption comes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 12 even says God gives a measure of faith to "each". Some say "each of His", some say, "to each". The verse says, "to each".

But lets go back to the passage you have in mind . . . this one says that faith is God's gift to us? I mean, I believe it is, but for different reasons, different passages. I'm curious what you see in this passage that shows faith to be God's gift?

Much love!

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.[Romans 12:1-3]

Allotted to each a measure of faith is referring to the brethren, the believers.

NIV puts Romans 12:3 like this...

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"power" is added by some translators, but not all. "the evil" or "the evil one" are both correct translations, either way reads exactly the same.

A good translation is, the whole world is laying in wickedness. We've got it up to our eyeballs, between the world and our flesh. And those without God, lost in it. Even our flesh is never far from it.

But this isn't a verse that defines a set of people in Satan's power that then let's us redefine who God meant in saying He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

When God compares His realm to what you may call Satan's realm, it's in terms of kingdoms and authority. The kingdom of darkness, the spirit who works in the children of disobedience.

Of course, we were those once. And I pray they become as we!

Much love!

But it’s talking about the lost being under Satan’s influence, under his power, his authority. We have been delivered from this. So whole world refers to the lost, not all mankind w/o exception.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'll refer you to my previous post on 1 John 1:9, on "Power".

You mention Colossians 1:13 ~
"who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;"

This is an example of kingdoms, and does not redefine "world" into less then what it is.

Much love!

But we were in the world, world being the lost in proper context.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

But it’s talking about the lost being under Satan’s influence, under his power, his authority. We have been delivered from this. So whole world refers to the lost, not all mankind w/o exception.

They're not going to study out meanings, or use Scripture in context. Pretty much it's futile to expect them to do so.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They're not going to study out meanings, or use Scripture in context. Pretty much it's futile to expect them to do so.

World means everybody w/o exception and that’s all it means. Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

 

[SovereignGrace]

They're not going to study out meanings, or use Scripture in context. Pretty much it's futile to expect them to do so.

Exercise in futility...

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that Calvinism bases its presuppositions on the redefinition of the words "world" and "all".

Forget the dictionary. Define it according to your doctrine.

Last time I checked, this was called "eisegesis".

 

[justbyfaith]

Exercise in futility...

I (we) feel the same way about you...

 

[Preacher4Truth]

World means everybody w/o exception and that’s all it means. Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

Yes, in John 12:19 "whole world" means that every single person in the world, from Russia, Alaska, India, America, The UK, Iceland, Japan, China, Newfoundland &c...every single person on the planet went after him. That's what "whole world" always means, every single person.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, in John 12:19 "whole world" means that every single person in the world, from Russia, Alaska, India, America, The UK, Iceland, Japan, China, Newfoundland &c...every single person on the planet went after him. That's what "whole world" always means, every single person.

And even we went after him. No wonder I am bushed.

#whew

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, in John 12:19 "whole world" means that every single person in the world, from Russia, Alaska, India, America, The UK, Iceland, Japan, China, Newfoundland &c...every single person on the planet went after him. That's what "whole world" always means, every single person.

It does indeed mean that, if you consider the implications of how the news of Jesus would eventually be spread to everyone.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, in John 12:19 "whole world" means that every single person in the world, from Russia, Alaska, India, America, The UK, Iceland, Japan, China, Newfoundland &c...every single person on the planet went after him. That's what "whole world" always means, every single person.

Wait a minute, I thought that you believed that no one can go after Christ because they have spiritual inability...

 

[justbyfaith]

Exercise in futility...

And here, the "footprints" that you are trying to clean up are the testimony of certain scriptures (such as Romans 10:9-13, John 1:12, and Revelation 22:17)....

 

[Preacher4Truth]

And even we went after him. No wonder I am bushed.

#whew

They don't study, instead they argue what they think the gospel should be, and what their god should be, or he doesn't get the part.

It's really not worth it bro, huge waste of time.

Several have come to the knowledge of the truth elsewhere, but I don't see it happening here at all. They're too busy fighting God, fighting the gospel, and honestly, they think they were pretty swell people who came to some god out of their own special love for him while lost.

No person who feels like this about themselves shows they've had a true encounter with Christ. They see themselves as not only pretty good to come to their god, but having the ability to do so as well. All of this is a denial of the Gospel of grace.