The Flesh & The Spirit

[aspen]

If Jesus couldnt sin why did he go through temptations?
Why did he come in the flesh?
How could he be killed?
What did he achieve in his sacrifice, nothing?
What did he overcome through his death?

We are told Jesus was tempted! Yes?

Where do temptations come from? James 1:14, 15, 16

BUT God cannot be tempted James 1:13

So far I have from yourself, Ducky, Veteran and Foreigner that you all believe

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus came in the "flesh" but couldnt sin.
3. Jesus could be tempted BUT,
4 Jesus is God who cannot be tempted :blink:

Makes sense? didnt think so.

Did Jesus have fleshly desires? Where did they come from? Luke 4:2 He became hungry, does God get hungry :unsure:

Alethos

Hello Alethos,

I see you still refuse to accept the fact that Jesus is God, simply in a humbled state when He was on Earth.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

All of your questions are answered by this fact, which you refuse to accept - even when Paul spells it our for us.

So here are some questions for you:

1: If Jesus was only found in appearance as a man, who was He?
2: Who did Paul meet on the road to Damascus?

 

[Alethos]

Hello Alethos,

I see you still refuse to accept the fact that Jesus is God, simply in a humbled state when He was on Earth.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

All of your questions are answered by this fact, which you refuse to accept - even when Paul spells it our for us.

So here are some questions for you:

1: If Jesus was only found in appearance as a man, who was He?
2: Who did Paul meet on the road to Damascus?

Aspen

I will answer your questions if you can also answer mine.

What kind of Flesh did Jesus have? Heb 4:15 Heb 2:14 2 Cor 5:21 and on and on and on...

Was he able to sin?

If not

Why was he made in the flesh, made sin for us?

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Hello Alethos,

I see you still refuse to accept the fact that Jesus is God, simply in a humbled state when He was on Earth.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

All of your questions are answered by this fact, which you refuse to accept - even when Paul spells it our for us.

So here are some questions for you:

1: If Jesus was only found in appearance as a man, who was He?
2: Who did Paul meet on the road to Damascus?

1. The Son of Man! Matt 18:11 I won’t list all the verses there are hundreds of them.

Why do you think he is called the Son of man?

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Phil 2:8

Appearance: Gr "schema": means the external condition outwardly considered, he was no different from other men.

Humbled Himself "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered" (Heb 5:8). "For even Christ did not please himself" (Rom 15:3).

Even the death of the cross - notice the repetition of 'death' should not be missed!!!

Can God die? Foolishness Aspen.

You must remember Jesus had His Father mind only because he chose to accept His will over his own.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Aspen did Jesus have another “will” contrary to Gods, from which he could have chosen another way?

Yes of no will suffice?

2. Glorified Jesus - I thought this was clearly obvious from the record Jesus having ascended to the right side of His Father.

Alethos

 

[aspen]

Aspen

I will answer your questions if you can also answer mine.

What kind of Flesh did Jesus have? Heb 4:15 Heb 2:14 2 Cor 5:21 and on and on and on...

Was he able to sin?

If not

Why was he made in the flesh, made sin for us?

Alethos

Oh no!

I asked you to answer my questions! I am waiting........

 

[Alethos]

Oh no!

I asked you to answer my questions! I am waiting........

Aspen

If you look one post back from your last, you will see I had already replied...its is I who is now waiting for you. ;)

Alethos

 

[aspen]

1. The Son of Man! Matt 18:11 I won’t list all the verses there are hundreds of them.

Why do you think he is called the Son of man?

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Phil 2:8

Appearance: Gr "schema": means the external condition outwardly considered, he was no different from other men.

Humbled Himself "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered" (Heb 5:8). "For even Christ did not please himself" (Rom 15:3).

Even the death of the cross - notice the repetition of 'death' should not be missed!!!

Can God die? Foolishness Aspen.

You must remember Jesus had His Father mind only because he chose to accept His will over his own.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Aspen did Jesus have another “will” contrary to Gods, from which he could have chosen another way?

Yes of no will suffice?

2. Glorified Jesus - I thought this was clearly obvious from the record Jesus having ascended to the right side of His Father.

Alethos

Your response is desperate. The fact is, you have failed to deal with the verse I provided. You also failed to answer my questions.

 

[Alethos]

Your response is desperate. The fact is, you have failed to deal with the verse I provided. You also failed to answer my questions.

1. The Son of Man
2. Jesus Christ the Son of Man

Alethos...one of the many sons of men who my Captain has gained victory over sin and death Heb 2:10. It appears Aspen your captain (small c) cannot sympathise with the feelings of your infirmities, because 1. He could not sin. 2 He could not die. 3. He could not even be tempted because he is God and He cannot be tempted.

When you think about its rather sad we don’t share in the same Jesus Christ. Mine suffered in the flesh; mine was tempted and tried severely in every aspect of human nature with the possibility of failure. 2 Sam 7:14. I have a Captain who actually understands what it’s like to be a corrupting creature, and to feel the lust of the flesh and its many urges. But yours is just a facade, a show, make believe and pretending all the while fooling you to believe he was tempted, that he did die and that he does "feel" your many sufferings’, but all said and done none of it is true, because your captain is actually God and not the Son of Man.

Alethos...John 9:35

Heb 2:6; Rev 1:13; Rev 14:14; John 13:31 John 12:34; John 12:23; John 8:28 John 5:27 and finally Num 21:9 & John 3:13-15

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Alethos,

I see you still refuse to accept the fact that Jesus is God, simply in a humbled state when He was on Earth.

This statement is the heart of the matter and the core of the debate.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

God has as much free will as any man does, but even the conflicted will of God is perfect and good and He always makes the right choice. God has the choice to do whatever he wants to, but sinning isn't who he is. 1+1 = 2 only if God is. His desires were tested just like ours are. The enemy tried to get Him to fulfill His desires outside His will. That doesn't mean his desires were evil. I'm not going to condemn someone as being sinful simply for being hungry. God didn't have to take on our sinful nature in order to save us but he did choose to put on our flesh and take the place of our nature so that we could become like Him. The effects of every sin that has and will ever be committed weighed on both His humanity and His sovereignty.

"Mine suffered in the flesh; mine was tempted and tried severely in every aspect of human nature with the possibility of failure."

I guess this strikes me the most.

Saying God can fail doesn't register in my understanding. It has to do with his character. He is perfect inside and out. Even when he was scourged He was perfect. Both his human nature and godly nature are perfect because He is God and he can't not be perfect. Even in his perfection he denied Himself like we should every day, though he had no reason to deny any part of Himself. He took scars on our behalf, and now we can only have part with Him if we suffer too, because He found it in His character to suffer perfectly for those who are imperfect. Saying Jesus has/had a sinful nature that He was conflicted with just like us is like saying that God has and always has had a conflicting nature; a both good and evil nature, the later which must be subdued in order for God to be who He is.

 

[justaname]

You have a strong grasp on the task of the human experience. We truly are here to overcome ourselves and the things of this world. As Christians we are to die to ourselves and the things of this world, in order to pick up our cross and follow step of our leader Jesus Christ. I also feel we tend to blame others, even the devil, for our own shortcomings or failures.

With that said, you cannot reconcile Matthew 4 without acceptance of a different entity other than the self. There is clearly two different beings in the beginning of the chapter.
Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
The tempter came to him, he said...
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city...
Again, the devil taketh him ... if thou will fall down and worship me. From your standpoint is Jesus asking himself to worship himself, thereby taking the role of Satan (and sin)?
Then Jesus names this devil, "Get thee hence, Satan:...

Jesus was not having this conversation with his flesh (or sin), it was with the devil, or tempter, or Satan.
Just as in Job, the Lord was having a conversation with Satan.

From Job 3:7 we see Satan in action "So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with boils..." Clearly this action was from Satan, from earlier verses permission was given from the Lord.

From Job 4:18 we also know "Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:"

If angels cannot sin, what would constitute foolishness or folly?

What you post is thought provoking. Clearly you have done much research to state your viewpoint. Much of what you post is on point. Honestly, let us work cohesively, to discern the truth. May the Holy Spirit bless us all in this endeavour.






You never replied to this post. I have one more for ya.

 

[justaname]

Jesus is the word and the word is God.
John 1 : 1

If you find a different meaning in John 1 : 1 please explain it.

There is only one God. God is not confined because he is spirit.
John 4 : 24

Psalms 139 : 8 God is everywhere.

Jesus being born of woman and God was fully man and fully God. Jesus was born of spirit and flesh. We my friend are not, unless you know something I don't. Don't you think that Jesus is just a bit different than us?
1 Timothy 3 : 16 God was manifest in the flesh (KJV)

Jesus (the man) was tempted, but did not fail (hence God can not be tempted).

May God's Holy Spirit led us in TRUTH.

 

[Alethos]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]You have a strong grasp on the task of the human experience. We truly are here to overcome ourselves and the things of this world. As Christians we are to die to ourselves and the things of this world, in order to pick up our cross and follow step of our leader Jesus Christ. I also feel we tend to blame others, even the devil, for our own shortcomings or failures.

With that said, you cannot reconcile Matthew 4 without acceptance of a different entity other than the self. There is clearly two different beings in the beginning of the chapter.
Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
The tempter came to him, he said...
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city...
Again, the devil taketh him ... if thou will fall down and worship me. From your standpoint is Jesus asking himself to worship himself, thereby taking the role of Satan (and sin)?
Then Jesus names this devil, "Get thee hence, Satan:...

Jesus was not having this conversation with his flesh (or sin), it was with the devil, or tempter, or Satan.
Just as in Job, the Lord was having a conversation with Satan.

From Job 3:7 we see Satan in action "So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with boils..." Clearly this action was from Satan, from earlier verses permission was given from the Lord.

From Job 4:18 we also know "Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:"

If angels cannot sin, what would constitute foolishness or folly?

What you post is thought provoking. Clearly you have done much research to state your viewpoint. Much of what you post is on point. Honestly, let us work cohesively, to discern the truth. May the Holy Spirit bless us all in this endeavour. [/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]You never replied to this post. I have one more for ya.[/size][/font]

Sorry if I missed your post.

Please read Jesus in the Wilderness & Job is dealt with extensively in Why would God make such a hateful place

Alethos

God has as much free will as any man does, but even the conflicted will of God is perfect and good and He always makes the right choice. God has the choice to do whatever he wants to, but sinning isn't who he is. 1+1 = 2 only if God is. His desires were tested just like ours are. The enemy tried to get Him to fulfill His desires outside His will. That doesn't mean his desires were evil. I'm not going to condemn someone as being sinful simply for being hungry. God didn't have to take on our sinful nature in order to save us but he did choose to put on our flesh and take the place of our nature so that we could become like Him. The effects of every sin that has and will ever be committed weighed on both His humanity and His sovereignty.

"Mine suffered in the flesh; mine was tempted and tried severely in every aspect of human nature with the possibility of failure."

I guess this strikes me the most.

Saying God can fail doesn't register in my understanding. It has to do with his character. He is perfect inside and out. Even when he was scourged He was perfect. Both his human nature and godly nature are perfect because He is God and he can't not be perfect. Even in his perfection he denied Himself like we should every day, though he had no reason to deny any part of Himself. He took scars on our behalf, and now we can only have part with Him if we suffer too, because He found it in His character to suffer perfectly for those who are imperfect. Saying Jesus has/had a sinful nature that He was conflicted with just like us is like saying that God has and always has had a conflicting nature; a both good and evil nature, the later which must be subdued in order for God to be who He is.

What kind of flesh did Jesus have?

Simple question!

Alethos

This statement is the heart of the matter and the core of the debate.

You have a dilemma believing that Jesus is God and all scripture is in derision because of this false teaching.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Can God die? and taste death?
Is God a little lower than the angels?
Can God be tempted with evil?

You cannot reconcile these questions with Jesus being God, impossible I know.

You don’t have a Captain who was made perfect through suffering because your captain was God in disguise. And God is not made perfect, He is perfect!

Your teaching makes a mockery of Jesus and his trials and a mockery of the relationship between Father and Son.

Go away and learn what this means Heb 2:14-15 Heb 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 John 3:13-15 Heb 2:10-11

Discovery is wonderful!

Alethos

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Whiteknuckle,

I know I am pressing you hard on this but I need you to understand exactly what you believe and that the Scriptures dont support your understanding.

A few questions?

If Jesus couldnt sin why did he go through temptations?
Why did he come in the flesh?
How could he be killed?
What did he achieve in his sacrifice, nothing?
What did he overcome through his death?

We are told Jesus was tempted! Yes?

Where do temptations come from? James 1:14, 15, 16

BUT God cannot be tempted James 1:13

So far I have from yourself, Ducky, Veteran and Foreigner that you all believe

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus came in the "flesh" but couldnt sin.
3. Jesus could be tempted BUT,
4 Jesus is God who cannot be tempted :blink:

Makes sense? didnt think so.

Did Jesus have fleshly desires? Where did they come from? Luke 4:2 He became hungry, does God get hungry :unsure:

Alethos

Answer: Flesh, tempted and not God but His Son Heb 4:15 Heb 2:14 2 Cor 5:21

Read Jesus in the wilderness

I have answers. I'm too tired right now to reply fully. I just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring anything and that I'll come back to this soon.

 

[Alethos]

I have answers. I'm too tired right now to reply fully. I just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring anything and that I'll come back to this soon.

Sleep well

Alethos

ps. Its a beautful (sunny) winters day here in Melbourne

God was fully man and fully God.

Read that again and again...until it starts to sound a little ridiculous.

That is the most unscriptural sentence I have read in this forum and its basis is found in the theology of men, designed by men to provide an explanation of the deity, which the Bible has never taught. Mans Creed.

This teaching are like shackles in the mind restricting the real truth of the Deity from reaching your senses. The above statement is in direct opposition to 1 Cor 11:3 where the true Godhead is stated.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

You skated my every scripture verse used in context.&nbsp;&nbsp;You also insulted me.&nbsp;&nbsp;<img src="http://www.christianityboard.com/public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif">I pray for you.&nbsp;&nbsp;May God bless you and remove the evil one from you.&nbsp;&nbsp;I give all I am to the Lord and his truth.&nbsp;&nbsp;You puff yourself up by taking on the very name of truth.&nbsp;&nbsp;You are not on a path to enlightenment.&nbsp;&nbsp;God is not something you can achieve, understand through human understanding, or earn through works. <br><br>You covet Jesus Christ!&nbsp;&nbsp;It is clear from what you post.&nbsp;&nbsp;You will never obtain what the Lord has, your search is in vein.&nbsp;&nbsp;Are you by chance Greek?&nbsp;&nbsp;Did not Paul speak of those of this world like you?<br><br>Jesus is fully man, and fully God, risen.&nbsp;&nbsp;He was sent by the Father, to fulfill what was written.&nbsp;&nbsp;He is the victory, and your God, believe it or not.&nbsp;&nbsp;Jesus is the word, the word is God. Timothy proclaims it.&nbsp;&nbsp;John proclaims it.&nbsp;&nbsp;Peter proclaims it.&nbsp;&nbsp;Jesus Emanuel proclaims it himself. The church proclaims it.&nbsp;&nbsp;Even doubting Thomas proclaims it.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Jesus (the temple) is a creation of the Father, so man can be reconciled. But do not be fooled into idolizing a temple, for God is a spirit, not contained to one temple.&nbsp;&nbsp;No man was able to be sinless, but God was for us.&nbsp;&nbsp;I, you, and every other man does not share of the Father's Spirit, except through Christ.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br> <br>You see Jesus is the son of man, (his temple)&nbsp;&nbsp;He is also the son of God (His Spirit).&nbsp;&nbsp;He is also the word of God, where the relationship between the Father and Son began.&nbsp;&nbsp;Jesus in Spirit never died, otherwise we wouldn't even know his name.&nbsp;&nbsp;His temple tasted death (lowering himself below the angles), so he could fulfill all things written, and rose again.<br><br>Jesus is not only the temple he created, he is one with the Spirit.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>Heb 2 : 8&nbsp;&nbsp; In this verse the author is simply stating that Jesus has supreme authority.&nbsp;&nbsp;Although we do not yet see the effects of His supreme authority here on Earth.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>Heb 2 : 10&nbsp;&nbsp;"for whom <i>are</i> all things, an <i>by </i>whom are all things,"&nbsp;&nbsp;If you don not see God here you are in denial.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Christ is my head, and the head of <b>Christ is God</b>, Jesus is the Christ.&nbsp;<div>Selah. &nbsp;

</div>

 

[Duckybill]

1. The Son of Man
2. Jesus Christ the Son of Man

You will soon find out that He is also God, and well able to condemn people to the eternal Hell.

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

What kind of flesh did Jesus have?

It sure wasn't sinful as Satan would have us to believe.

Read that again and again...until it starts to sound a little ridiculous.

Jesus/God ridiculous??? Have you never read the Bible???


Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

 

[justaname]

You skated my every scripture verse used in context. You also insulted me.

I pray for you. May God bless you and remove the evil one from you. I give all I am to the Lord and his truth. You puff yourself up by taking on the very name of truth. You are not on a path to enlightenment. God is not something you can achieve, understand through human understanding, or earn through works.

You covet Jesus Christ! It is clear from what you post. You will never obtain what the Lord has, your search is in vein. Are you by chance Greek? Did not Paul speak of those of this world like you?

Jesus is fully man, and fully God, risen. He was sent by the Father, to fulfill what was written. He is the victory, and your God, believe it or not. Jesus is the word, the word is God. Timothy proclaims it. John proclaims it. Peter proclaims it. Jesus Emanuel proclaims it himself. The church proclaims it. Even doubting Thomas proclaims it.

Jesus (the temple) is a creation of the Father, so man can be reconciled. But do not be fooled into idolizing a temple, for God is a spirit, not contained to one temple. No man was able to be sinless, but God was for us. I, you, and every other man does not share of the Father's Spirit, except through Christ.

You see Jesus is the son of man, (his temple) He is also the son of God (His Spirit). He is also the word of God, where the relationship between the Father and Son began. Jesus in Spirit never died, otherwise we wouldn't even know his name. His temple tasted death (lowering himself below the angles), so he could fulfill all things written, and rose again.

Jesus is not only the temple he created, he is one with the Spirit.
Heb 2 : 8 In this verse the author is simply stating that Jesus has supreme authority. Although we do not yet see the effects of His supreme authority here on Earth.
Heb 2 : 10 "for whom are all things, an by whom are all things," If you don not see God here you are in denial.


Christ is my head, Selah.

 

[Alethos]

You skated my every scripture verse used in context. You also insulted me.

I pray for you. May God bless you and remove the evil one from you. I give all I am to the Lord and his truth. You puff yourself up by taking on the very name of truth. You are not on a path to enlightenment. God is not something you can achieve, understand through human understanding, or earn through works.

You covet Jesus Christ! It is clear from what you post. You will never obtain what the Lord has, your search is in vein. Are you by chance Greek? Did not Paul speak of those of this world like you?

Jesus is fully man, and fully God, risen. He was sent by the Father, to fulfill what was written. He is the victory, and your God, believe it or not. Jesus is the word, the word is God. Timothy proclaims it. John proclaims it. Peter proclaims it. Jesus Emanuel proclaims it himself. The church proclaims it. Even doubting Thomas proclaims it.

Jesus (the temple) is a creation of the Father, so man can be reconciled. But do not be fooled into idolizing a temple, for God is a spirit, not contained to one temple. No man was able to be sinless, but God was for us. I, you, and every other man does not share of the Father's Spirit, except through Christ.

You see Jesus is the son of man, (his temple) He is also the son of God (His Spirit). He is also the word of God, where the relationship between the Father and Son began. Jesus in Spirit never died, otherwise we wouldn't even know his name. His temple tasted death (lowering himself below the angles), so he could fulfill all things written, and rose again.

Jesus is not only the temple he created, he is one with the Spirit.
Heb 2 : 8 In this verse the author is simply stating that Jesus has supreme authority. Although we do not yet see the effects of His supreme authority here on Earth.
Heb 2 : 10 "for whom are all things, an by whom are all things," If you don not see God here you are in denial.


Christ is my head, Selah.

Justaname

2 Tim 4:2 I think the above may imply I preach the word out of season

I did a little study in Heb 2:8-10 and by the way I agree with your comment - "In this verse the author is simply stating that Jesus has supreme authority. Although we do not yet see the effects of His supreme authority here on Earth"

Agreed.

Have you given thought to how he came to have this authority?

Heb 2:8 Thou (God) hast put all things in subjection under his (Jesus) feet. For in that he (God) put all in subjection under him (Jesus), he left nothing that is not put under him (Jesus). But now we see not yet all things put under him.

The author here leaves out the obvious exception which is noted by Paul in 1 Co 15:27: It is clear Heb 2:8 does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."

Agree?

God is the Head of Christ, and therefore Jesus is lower than God in terms of the Heavenly hierarchy!

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Right hand side...but not in His (Gods) throne!!!

Please do not say Jesus is sitting in Gods throne as God. :unsure:

“But now we see not yet all things put under him”

Justaname, we are yet see Jesus reign in the present world, actually if you go over to Heb 1:13 "Sit at my

right hand "UNTIL" I make your enemies a footstool for your feet" (Psa 110:1). Jesus temporary rule over

the world will last for 1000 years after which he then passes the Kingdom back to His FATHER!

Read Psalm 8 and compare with Phi 3:21.

If you read verse 4 this will alarm you…Speaking from Gods perspective Psa 8:4 what is man (us) that you are mindful of him, and the son of man (Jesus) that you care for him?

God made his son with lowly body the scriptures tell us this over and over.

Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his (Jesus) glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

This verse speaks of the lowly position and humble statues before God, a position which Jesus himself shared being our captain Heb 2:10 – as Psa 8:4 states Jesus was the meekest most humble man to ever live, not only because he was the Son of God, but the Son of Man sharing the flesh and blood nature. In his body he humiliated the flesh and blood on the cross as a spectacle for all to see. The emphasis in Phil 3:21 is not on sinfulness, but on lowliness.

So this brings us to Jesus “in bringing many sons to glory: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12; cp Rom 8:14,19; Gal 3:26; 4:6).

How?

He became the author of our salvation "Archegos", which has variously been translated "captain" (KJV), "pioneer" (RSV), "author" (ASV, NIV), "leader" (Moffatt)

Jesus became the pathfinder or trailblazer as in Heb 12:2 and is also spoken of being the perfecter of our faith. Acts 3:15, "the author of life" and Acts 5:31, and absolutely, "Prince."...God is King in Heaven Ps 74:12...Jesus a Prince Rev 1:5 KJV.

Think of Jesus as a man who fought and won a battle within himself, he is the great commander, better than Joshua Jos 5:14,15 and David Isa 55:4...he fought against an enemy whcih was within him Luke 22:42 a will which was always present, another mind in opposition to His Father (although he never used it - carnal read Rom 8), hence the temptations in Matt 4.

it was fitting that God... should make the author of their salvation "perfect" through suffering:

It was appropriate, it was in keeping with the will of God, that His Son Jesus be first of all a human being, and secondly, he partake of all that flesh was heir to, up to and including sufferings and death. Jesus became like us that we may become like him (cp 2 Co 5:21).

I ask you why did he suffer in the flesh 1 Peter 4:1?

God made Jesus perfect through suffering!

Jesus was made perfect in the sense of being brought to a certain "completeness" associated with the fulfillment of God's plan.

I really would like you to personally study the following text very carefully and go through theses texts slowly. “perfect through suffering”

The word "teleos" is first used here in the epistle and means to "make perfect". This important word occurs in its various forms frequently in Hebrews (Heb 5:9,14; 6:1; 7:11,19,28; Heb 9:9,11; Heb 10:1,14; Heb 11:40; Heb 12:22,23). The word carries the idea of "bringing to perfection" in the sense of fulfillment or completeness.

Here is one such use…

"And once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him" (Heb 5:9).

He became the source...this only happened once he destroyed the devil in his body Heb 2:14. If Jesus was God his perfection wouldn’t need to be completed or developed? Jesus "becoming" perfect implies at some stage he was not perfect...but moving towards perfection.

You will find that while Jesus was born of a woman, inherited the flesh and blood of Adam where death reigns he could never be perfect in His Fathers eyes. The best Jesus ever got from His father was at his Baptism Matt 3:17.

His perfection came when His Father raised him from the dead and he ascended the Heavens where he now sits, not as God, but as his Son.

Rev 3:21 Acts 2:34 Luke 22:69

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Amen

 

[Alethos]

Ducky lead me to an interesting verse from another topic Sin & Death.

Heb 1:4 (Jesus) Being "made" so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I "begotten thee"? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"Made" - come into being
"Begotten" means to "procreate". Bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

It shows us that Jesus was created by His Father - Jesus has a beginning...But God doesnt. 1 Tim 6:15,16

Like being in Christ those also have been begotten 1 Peter 1:3 by the same Living Word!!! 1 Peter 1:23

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky lead me to an interesting verse from another topic Sin & Death.

Heb 1:4 (Jesus) Being "made" so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I "begotten thee"? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"Made" - come into being
"Begotten" means to "procreate". Bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

It shows us that Jesus was created by His Father - Jesus has a beginning...But God doesnt. 1 Tim 6:15,16

Like being in Christ those also have been begotten 1 Peter 1:3 by the same Living Word!!! 1 Peter 1:23

Alethos

Jesus is God, whether you believe it or not. As I have pointed out several times:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.