The Flesh & The Spirit

[justaname]

To support my view I hold to St. John 1 : 1, St. John 1 : 14, 1 Timothy 3 : 16, Matthew 1 : 23
Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, justified to the non believer, so they may stand convicted.

I am not against you, I am for you. I pray for Truth. Rest assured I have a full (but not complete for I am a man) understanding of the Christ.

 

[Alethos]

To support my view I hold to St. John 1 : 1, St. John 1 : 14, 1 Timothy 3 : 16, Matthew 1 : 23
Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, justified to the non believer, so they may stand convicted.

I am not against you, I am for you. I pray for Truth. Rest assured I have a full (but not complete for I am a man) understanding of the Christ.

Hi Justaname

I also am not against you, for why would I spend months of my time trying to teach, if only in vain? I have something to give if only it would be received.

When you ask the right questions of God’s Word we find HE does not disappoint us and here in 1 Tim 3:16 you have seen something very special, you may not entirely understand exactly what it is, but it enlightens the mind.

You provided 1 Tim 3:16 to support that Jesus was in fact God, but through careful consideration of this verse we see Jesus Christ being "made" righteous "by" the Spirit, through his death.

Can you now see just how "similar" Jesus is to us, and how he is the firstfruits of God's Children.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be “made” righteous. Rom 5:19

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:11

The question we ought to ask is how was Jesus himself justified by (through) the Spirit?

[sup]12[/sup]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Hebrews 9:12-14 [sup][/sup]

So what do these Scriptures teach us?

· Jesus could not be God for God does not need justifying or made right.

· Jesus in obeying God while in the Flesh was “made” right before God.

· The Spirit is only from God the Father and was the working force in Jesus life, and

· That Spirit was allowed by Jesus its full way to overcome temptations and the lusts of the flesh.

· Prior to Jesus death and shedding of blood, he was not in a righteous state before God. God was well pleased with His son, but yet to be deemed righteous “until” the death of his flesh and its workings.

· The “same” process of justification will be used to quicken our mortal bodies upon the Masters return.

· The Spirit is “of our God” and not of the Jesus Christ.

So the Spirit of God tells us...

[sup]14[/sup]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who “through” the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Jesus relied upon the Spirit of God wholly and it was through the working of that Spirit that Jesus was saved.

Gods Spirit refers to His mind, disposition His expression of thought expressed Spirit – word and His power is very dynamic in its working. Jesus was the first Son who fully heeded its power in obeying Gods Word.

The Apostle Paul wrote

"I am not ashamed of the Gospel (the word) of Christ: for it is (now) the power "of God" unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16).

Luke 1:37 (R.V.) harps on the same theme: "No word of God shall be void of power (spirit)".

"The word of God is quick (living) and powerful"; "the word of His (God's) power" (Heb. 4:12; 1:3). "The word of God...effectually worketh also in you that believe" (1 Thess. 2:13).

If Jesus be God then...

How can God obey Himself? How can God make another God (Jesus)?

No the Holy Spirit Power which is only of God gave His son life and existence.

• The Holy Ghost (Spirit) shall come upon thee (Mary), and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" (Lk.1:35)
• "The power of the Holy Spirit...mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God" (Rom.15:13,19)
• "Our gospel (preaching) came...in power, and in the Holy Spirit" (1 Thess. 1:5).
• The promise of the Holy Spirit to the disciples was spoken of as their being "endued with power from on high" (Lk. 24:49).
• Paul could back up his preaching with undeniable displays of God's power: "My speech and my preaching was...in demonstration of the spirit and of power" (1 Cor. 2:4).

And Jesus himself not having the Holy Spirit was provided with it by His Father to do marvellous signs and wonders.

• Jesus himself had been "anointed...with the Holy Spirit and with power" (Acts 10:38).

Notice it states that later in the verse that “God (Holy Spirit) was with him”

If Jesus was God he would not need God at all to be with Him!

May God be with you and in your understanding.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

You may have missed some previous posts.

Do Jesus and Yahweh share the same spirit? A simple yes or no will do.

 

[Duckybill]

Peter knew Jesus was/is God.

John 21:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

Thomas knew Jesus was/is God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

John knew Jesus was/is God.

John 1 The Word was God... The Word became flesh ...

Paul knew Jesus was/is God.

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

 

[aspen]

I think I am going to start a thread arguing that night is actually day. Then I can complain about how hard I am working to teach the poor souls who refuse to receive the Truth.

 

[Alethos]

You may have missed some previous posts.

Do Jesus and Yahweh share the same spirit? A simple yes or no will do.

Can you define the word "share" in light of Acts 10:38 & Isa 42:1 Isa 11:1-2?

[sup]Isaiah 42:1[/sup]Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I (God) have put my spirit upon him (Jesus): he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

[sup]Isa 11:1[/sup] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [sup]2[/sup] The Spirit of the LORD will “rest” on him the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of
might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.

· Jesus did not pre-exist, else why would He put the Spirit on him, if he already had it? Makes no sense!

· This putting on of the Spirit was initiated by God alone

· The spirit is defined as providing Jesus with wisdom and understanding from which he was totally reliant upon God and His Spirit.

· That Jesus would "fear" God his maker (Can God fear Himself?) Makes no sense!

I will wait for you to “define” the word share in light of the above scriptures. I would like to better understand the intention behind your question.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

Jesus did exist in the Father before creation. It is clear he is/was the word. Are you saying the Father is limited, or His Word is, to our time? Has the Father no imagination? Has the Father no plan in your existence?

In the light of Acts 10 : 38

The Father shares his Holy Spirit with Jesus of Nazareth, and God was with him. And to read further from KJV 10 : 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

 

[justaname]

Let me lift you to the light Son of Adam. If your Jesus is not God, then God is not in you, for you may only come to the Father through your God, Son of God, Jesus Christ.
End of discussion.

 

[Alethos]

Jesus did exist in the Father before creation. It is clear he is/was the word. Are you saying the Father is limited, or His Word is, to our time? Has the Father no imagination? Has the Father no plan in your existence?

In the light of Acts 10 : 38

The Father shares his Holy Spirit with Jesus of Nazareth, and God was with him. And to read further from KJV 10 : 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Hi Justaname

If Jesus pre existed as you say, why did God need to share something that you say he (Jesus) already had?

I need to now better understand this comment "Jesus did exist in the Father before creation"

Can you explain?

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

If your Jesus is not God, then God is not in you, for you may only come to the Father through your God, Son of God, Jesus Christ.
End of discussion.

Sorry Justaname, I cannot see how you confuse God and Jesus? While the Scriptures speak of them now as being one in purpose they are seperate beings.

You say "if Jesus is not God then God is not in you"

The Bible says:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid "with" Christ in God. Col 3:3

You say"you may only come to the Father through your God"

the Bible says:

“I (Jesus) am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except "through" me (Jesus). John 14:6

Or in reverse if we may.

No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him (through Jesus): and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Either way, the Bible is clear that access to the Father is only "through" Jesus Christ, not God.

Jesus is our mediator "For there is one God, "and" one mediator between God and men, the "man" Christ Jesus; 1 Tim 2:5

"one God and one mediator"

We are told in many places the work of Jesus Christ (one mediator) Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24. It was Christ who confirmed the new covenant "by" his death as the covenant-victim: "For where a covenant is, there must also of necessity be the death of the covenant-victim" (Heb 9:16, 17-18). He told his disciples at the Last Supper: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (Luke 22:20). The blood of Christ, in a figurative sense, came to represent the "new and living way" which he had opened, and which is still open to all men (Heb 10:20-22).

In this one must come through Jesus Christ and notice how it stress "the MAN Jesus Christ" Jesus was "himself man" see Heb 2:14 and Rom 8:3 a perfect man, the representative of all men before God.

Mediator in the Greek "mesites", or mediator, is derived from "mesos", in the middle. Hence "mesites" means one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.

So it looks like this from 1 Tim 2:5:

God
Jesus (man)
Man

But you have it...

God
Jesus (God)
Man

But the last part of your statement "Son of God, Jesus Christ" is truth.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Sorry Justaname, I cannot see how you confuse God and Jesus?

He isn't the one who is confused.

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

[Alethos]

He isn't the one who is confused.

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yes Ducky, Jesus is/was the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation (karacter) of his being (Heb 1:3). "For in him (Jesus) all the fullness of God dwelt" (Col 1:19). BUT....Not actual God.

Isn’t it lovely the Son was like His Father.

In some way I hope and pray my son is better than his father!

Alethos

p.s Here we go again Aspen.

 

[Alethos]

He isn't the one who is confused.

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Ducky,

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

Do you think Ducky Jesus was saying the love of His father is in him, therefore you have seen his character? For Psa 53:2 tells us He looks down from Heaven and that we cannot stand in his presence 1 Cor 1:29

Yet another example of misusing the Word of God.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

No man hath seen God at any time.

The Father isn't God???

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Do you think Ducky Jesus was saying the love of His father is in him, therefore you have seen his character?

Actually Jesus was saying that He is God, as did Thomas, Peter, Paul and John, oh yeah Isaiah too.

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Alethos]

Who was Philip asking to see?

[sup]8[/sup]Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. John 14:8

But what did Jesus say...

[sup]9[/sup]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 14:9

And then Jesus explains John 14:12!!!! Also see 1 John 4:12

"I (Jesus) am going to the Father (God)"

Its very clear, but if someone else would like to enlighten Ducky as to the thrust of Philips question please do so.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

But what did Jesus say...

[sup]9[/sup]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 14:9

You just said it yourself.

 

[Alethos]

Ducky.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME!!!!!!!

So what is this all about Ducky?[sup]

8[/sup]Philip saith unto him (Jesus), Lord, show us the Father (God), and it sufficeth us. John 14:8

[sup]9[/sup]Jesus (the son) saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not "known" me (Character Ducky!), Philip? he that hath seen me (the son) hath seen the Father (God's Character Ducky !!!!); and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 14:9

And then Jesus told them..

"I (Jesus the son) am going to the Father (who is God)"

How do you reconcile 1 John 4:12 and John 14:9?

Which Scripture is right Ducky? the one which supports your belief? or are both of them wrong? are both of them right?

Please don’t be so quick to dismiss the context of a passage for the sake of a pre conceived belief.

 

[Duckybill]

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME!!!!!!!

So what is this all about Ducky?

God made several appearances in the OT. I.E.[sup]
[/sup]
Exodus 33:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

So then, it must be saying that nobody has seen the Father directly, and that it was Jesus/God the Son, who appeared in the OT to several people. I see no contradiction.

[sup]
8[/sup]Philip saith unto him (Jesus), Lord, show us the Father (God), and it sufficeth us. John 14:8

[sup]9[/sup]Jesus (the son) saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not "known" me (Character Ducky!), Philip? he that hath seen me (the son) hath seen the Father (God's Character Ducky !!!!); and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 14:9

The "character" part is what you added. Not Scripture.

And then Jesus told them..

"I (Jesus the son) am going to the Father (who is God)"

How do you reconcile 1 John 4:12 and John 14:9?

Which Scripture is right Ducky? the one which supports your belief? or are both of them wrong? are both of them right?

Please don’t be so quick to dismiss the context of a passage for the sake of a pre conceived belief.

There is nothing to reconcile. The Scriptures are true. You are trying to explain the INFINITE Almighty God. Lots of luck.

John 3:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[[email protected]]

He isn't the one who is confused.

There is a point where confusion ends and persuation begins.

Unless a man believes that Jesus is the Son of God he is not a Christian.

Simple.

Discussion about the Holy Spirit also being God becomes equally complex when one party refuses to believe the clear intent of scripture.

There are those that deny they have a human spirit within them, or that there is a spirit or God at all. Oddly these same creatures are ready willing and able to swallow all sorts of other things such as space aliens, the resurrection of Elvis and the Bermuda Triangle.

 

[Alethos]

Ducky said:There is nothing to reconcile. The Scriptures are true. You are trying to explain the INFINITE Almighty God. Lots of luck.

I understand.

The two greatest Bible studies are God and Jesus and its impossible to explain them or their relationship!

Alethos

There is a point where confusion ends and persuation begins.

Unless a man believes that Jesus is the Son of God he is not a Christian.

Very true statement rjp

1 John 4:2 & 2 John 1:7

I believe the emphasis is on his flesh.

I wonder why? And what does it mean to be "in flesh"?

Alethos