The Glory

[justbyfaith]

When you are baptized with the Holy Spirit, you are no longer in this sinful state. Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If we still have a problem with sin, it is because we don't have the Spirit. Are you still a sinner? Do you belong to Christ? Those who sin, do not have the Spirit and do not belong to Christ.

You are lying to yourself.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

For I acknowledge my transgressions; and my sin is ever before me (Psalms 51:3).

For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing... (Romans 7:18a)

I am a sinner and I still do sin on occasion. However, the Lord has done a transforming work in me so that I am not what I used to be as regards to sin. I seek Him daily to bring a greater sanctification to my heart and life; and I also pray for this in the church at large, every day.

re #99.

 

[justbyfaith]

Psalms 51:6,

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

or alive (Romans 7:9).

AGAIN, Paul is talking about the LAW. Are you under the law still? The law showed us our SIN. The Spirit took it away. Flush! Down the drain!

What I've noticed is that you like to take scripture out of context, or assign the opposite meaning to what the apostle is saying, and have come up with a powerless doctrine of sin, sin, sin, when Jesus made us free of sin - John 8:34-35.

Paul not only told us the FACT that we are dead to sin, but that we must also RECKON ourselves free of sin. You want to keep telling yourself the opposite.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are lying to yourself.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

For I acknowledge my transgressions; and my sin is ever before me (Psalms 51:3).

For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing... (Romans 7:18a)

I am a sinner and I still do sin on occasion. However, the Lord has done a transforming work in me so that I am not what I used to be as regards to sin. I seek Him daily to bring a greater sanctification to my heart and life; and I also pray for this in the church at large, every day.

re #99.

Here you go again quoting scriptures about the unsaved, and telling yourself that it is about Christians. Speak for yourself.

Do yourself a favor, and read up on the Gnostics and Nicolaitans. You will find that as 1 John 4:1-3 says, they did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, but only in Spirit. They got it into their heads that therefore only sins of the Spirit were actually sins, but sins of the flesh weren't - thus they said they had no sin. Sound familiar? 1 John 1:8. What they were doing is having all the men rape each other's wives for the purpose of showing the power of grace. And as Paul said about them also, "So shall we sin, so grace may abound? God forbid!" It was sick, sick, sick. And, thus, not about Christians!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm glad that I'm saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7). It has had the effect of setting me free from many sinful behaviours. But, I've still got room to grow (Philippians 3:12-16).

Yes, grace is a gift, as is the power to not sin. It is not something I do from my own willpower like keeping the LAW. That's what that means. The Spirit takes out the sin nature and replaces it. That is what being born again is all about. The sinless seed of God is in us. That is why 1 John 3:9 is TRUE!

 

[justbyfaith]

AGAIN, Paul is talking about the LAW. Are you under the law still? The law showed us our SIN. The Spirit took it away. Flush! Down the drain!

What I've noticed is that you like to take scripture out of context, or assign the opposite meaning to what the apostle is saying, and have come up with a powerless doctrine of sin, sin, sin, when Jesus made us free of sin - John 8:34-35.

Paul not only told us the FACT that we are dead to sin, but that we must also RECKON ourselves free of sin. You want to keep telling yourself the opposite.

Looking at that, the scripture (in context) is Romans 6:10-11.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin in the same manner that Jesus died unto sin. How did Jesus die unto sin? Was He a sinner, and then was set free from sin, so that He became born again? That is obviously not the interpretation. We find that scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13...we compare spiritual thing with spiritual in order to get the Holy Ghost's teaching).

In 2 Corinthians 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin: that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus died unto sin by becoming sin for us. And likewise, we are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin in the same manner.

I find therefore that we are utterly sinful before a holy God. Even Daniel and Job, some of the most righteous men who ever lived, when they encountered the Lord in all of His glory, said that they were vile by comparison, and that their comeliness was turned into corruption before Him (Job 40:4, Daniel 10:8).

Now there is also the meaning attached to the concept of dead to sin, that it means that we are set free from it, we are no longer slaves to it so that we would have to obey its dictates in our lives. This is in Romans 6:7. However in Romans 6:10-11, the word likewise is an important word that people often miss when interpreting these scriptures; that brings the meaning of verse 10 into how we interpret verse 11.

So then, while I know that in my flesh I am utterly sinful (Romans 7:18a); I understand also that in that, I am dead. My relationship to that sin that dwells in my mortal flesh is like that of an alcoholic who, in his nature, was the worst alcoholic who ever lived (see 1 Timothy 1:15); and, while alive, could not resist alcohol in any form: but now that he is a dead corpse, he will not even be tempted even if you put the best wine in front of him.

Yes, grace is a gift, as is the power to not sin. It is not something I do from my own willpower like keeping the LAW. That's what that means. The Spirit takes out the sin nature and replaces it. That is what being born again is all about. The sinless seed of God is in us. That is why 1 John 3:9 is TRUE!

Indeed, 1 John 3:9 is true to the fullest extent.

I would ask you if that means, in your life, that you don't ever sin; and/or that it is impossible for you that you should sin?

 

[justbyfaith]

Here you go again quoting scriptures about the unsaved, and telling yourself that it is about Christians. Speak for yourself.

When you "got saved", what was your prayer? In your prayer did you declare, as David did, that your sin was ever before you?

When you prayed it, did it suddenly become untrue in your life?

Why would God set that forth as the right thing to pray as a penitent sinner and then turn that prayer into a lie the moment you get saved?

God is telling you what is the proper attitude towards sin.

Even as Peter, who had the wrong attitude towards sin, thought and said, "I will never deny you, Lord, not even if everyone else here does!"

It turned out that this was Peter's pride. He thought that he was somehow above all the rest, and that he could stay true to Jesus in a situation where the Lord said everyone would fall away.

What ended up happening? Peter denied the Lord three times.

If Peter had recognized that he was not as loyal as he thought he was (in and of himself), he might have been able to rely on the Lord in that situation and even succeeded at keeping from denying him. This is what might have happened in the absence of Peter's pride.

But Peter's pride was there; and therefore he did not rely on the Lord: he thought that he had the power and strength in and of himself to be able to stay loyal to Jesus in the toughest of circumstances. And he fell as the result (see Proverbs 16:18).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin in the same manner that Jesus died unto sin. How did Jesus die unto sin? Was He a sinner, and then was set free from sin, so that He became born again? That is obviously not the interpretation. We find that scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13...we compare spiritual thing with spiritual in order to get the Holy Ghost's teaching).

The secret to Jesus' sinlessness was the seed of the Father. He had that from before birth! We are given that same seed when we are born again of the Spirit (IF we repent from all sin which gives us this free gift of power called the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I find therefore that we are utterly sinful before a holy God. Even Daniel and Job, some of the most righteous men who ever lived, when they encountered the Lord in all of His glory, said that they were vile by comparison, and that their comeliness was turned into corruption before Him (Job 40:4, Daniel 10:8).

Yes, everyone in the Old Testament was born AFTER Adam sinned, and BEFORE Christ! Good grief, how thick can you get?

So then, while I know that in my flesh I am utterly sinful (Romans 7:18a)

ROFL You do know that Paul is showing our condition under the LAW, and BEFORE Christ. AGAIN, since Adam all have sinned, but Jesus was manifested to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN, AND IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN!!! 1 John 3:5

Do you ever think about the verses you use in a debate? This is too easy. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

Ask yourself, if you are blind, and Jesus heals you restoring your sight, are you still blind? It is the same with sin. When Jesus cleanses you of all (past) sin, gives you a nature that CANNOT SIN, are you still a sinner?



.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When you "got saved", what was your prayer? In your prayer did you declare, as David did, that your sin was ever before you?

When you prayed it, did it suddenly become untrue in your life?

Absolutely! The prayer I prayed was that I was a sinner and couldn't stop sinning, and asked God to scrub me clean of sin and take away the draw and pain. Instantly, I was free.

Why would God set that forth as the right thing to pray as a penitent sinner and then turn that prayer into a lie the moment you get saved?

He didn't lie, that is blasphemy! The Scriptures are true. I am free of willful sin.

God is telling you what is the proper attitude towards sin.

No, dear, that is the LAW, until Christ's Spirit. The LAW taught us about sin to BRING US TO CHRIST. He is the answer.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Even as Peter, who had the wrong attitude towards sin, thought and said, "I will never deny you, Lord, not even if everyone else here does!"

It turned out that this was Peter's pride. He thought that he was somehow above all the rest, and that he could stay true to Jesus in a situation where the Lord said everyone would fall away.

What ended up happening? Peter denied the Lord three times.

If Peter had recognized that he was not as loyal as he thought he was (in and of himself), he might have been able to rely on the Lord in that situation and even succeeded at keeping from denying him. This is what might have happened in the absence of Peter's pride.

But Peter's pride was there; and therefore he did not rely on the Lord: he thought that he had the power and strength in and of himself to be able to stay loyal to Jesus in the toughest of circumstances.

Now you are showing Peter's life BEFORE Christ died, as an example. Ridiculous. AGAIN, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin.

Don't you know how the gospel works? First Christ had to die for our sin for the promise of the Spirit to come into affect. (just in case you didn't know) And that goes for all the OT passages you can throw at me. And all the verses in Romans during Paul's teaching on the purpose the law.

[/quote]So then, while I know that in my flesh I am utterly sinful (Romans 7:18a)[/quote]

BEFORE Christ! Romans 8:9 AFTER CHRIST But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hello @1stCenturyLady,

I hope that you are truly born again according to the definition that you have set forth; and therefore you do not need the understanding that you are a sinner before the Lord, which is what exposure to the law might reveal to you inasmuch as it is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ: telling you that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour.

But of course, if you are not a sinner, then you don't need Christ. Because you are a perfect person and therefore don't need to be forgiven.

Furthermore, if righteousness/salvation/redemption comes through the law/your performance/how well you walk as a Christian, then Christ is dead in vain (Galatians 2:21). He also didn't really even need to die; because you can attain to heaven on your own righteousness; you don 't need Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Absolutely! The prayer I prayed was that I was a sinner and couldn't stop sinning, and asked God to scrub me clean of sin and take away the draw and pain. Instantly, I was free.



He didn't lie, that is blasphemy! The Scriptures are true. I am free of willful sin.



No, dear, that is the LAW, until Christ's Spirit. The LAW taught us about sin to BRING US TO CHRIST. He is the answer.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.



Now you are showing Peter's life BEFORE Christ died, as an example. Ridiculous. AGAIN, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin.

Don't you know how the gospel works? First Christ had to die for our sin for the promise of the Spirit to come into affect. (just in case you didn't know) And that goes for all the OT passages you can throw at me. And all the verses in Romans during Paul's teaching on the purpose the law.

[..quote..]So then, while I know that in my flesh I am utterly sinful (Romans 7:18a)[../quote..]

BEFORE Christ! Romans 8:9 AFTER CHRIST But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

You appear to be (willfully) blind to what the scriptures are really saying, that I have pointed out.

As you referenced 1 Corinthians 14:38 before, I think that my response is Matthew 7:1-6, Romans 2:1-3.

And 1 Corinthians 14:38.

 

[justbyfaith]

The secret to Jesus' sinlessness was the seed of the Father. He had that from before birth! We are given that same seed when we are born again of the Spirit (IF we repent from all sin which gives us this free gift of power called the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.



Yes, everyone in the Old Testament was born AFTER Adam sinned, and BEFORE Christ! Good grief, how thick can you get?




ROFL You do know that Paul is showing our condition under the LAW, and BEFORE Christ. AGAIN, since Adam all have sinned, but Jesus was manifested to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN, AND IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN!!! 1 John 3:5

Do you ever think about the verses you use in a debate? This is too easy. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

Ask yourself, if you are blind, and Jesus heals you restoring your sight, are you still blind? It is the same with sin. When Jesus cleanses you of all (past) sin, gives you a nature that CANNOT SIN, are you still a sinner?

I assume that the things that you didn't quote out of my previous post were things that you couldn't or didn't want to answer.

No matter. The only statement or question that I even really want you to answer is the following:

Indeed, 1 John 3:9 is true to the fullest extent.

I would ask you if that means, in your life, that you don't ever sin; and/or that it is impossible for you that you should sin?

If you don't have an answer to the question above, then there is no point in going on in this discussion. I will assume that you are not going by experience or a testimony but according to a misunderstanding of God's word. Because if the doctrine that you are preaching has not truly had the effect on your life that you say it has, then what you are saying is just a bunch of talk and means nothing.

If you are not truly perfect as you seem to think you are, then you are blowing hot air that has no meaning for any of us; it is a bunch of false doctrine that has no effect on your walk with Christ (or mine).

 

[justbyfaith]

You said:

Yes, everyone in the Old Testament was born AFTER Adam sinned, and BEFORE Christ! Good grief, how thick can you get?

Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ, 1 Peter 1:10-12.

Also, a fruit of the Spirit is longsuffering; and this is a characteristic that one would expect from someone who is saying accurately that they have become perfect.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hello @1stCenturyLady,

I hope that you are truly born again according to the definition that you have set forth; and therefore you do not need the understanding that you are a sinner before the Lord, which is what exposure to the law might reveal to you inasmuch as it is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ: telling you that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour.

But of course, if you are not a sinner, then you don't need Christ. Because you are a perfect person and therefore don't need to be forgiven.

Furthermore, if righteousness/salvation/redemption comes through the law/your performance/how well you walk as a Christian, then Christ is dead in vain (Galatians 2:21). He also didn't really even need to die; because you can attain to heaven on your own righteousness; you don 't need Him.

Ridiculous conclusions that aren't worth a response.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I assume that the things that you didn't quote out of my previous post were things that you couldn't or didn't want to answer.

No matter. The only statement or question that I even really want you to answer is the following:



If you don't have an answer to the question above, then there is no point in going on in this discussion. I will assume that you are not going by experience or a testimony but according to a misunderstanding of God's word. Because if the doctrine that you are preaching has not truly had the effect on your life that you say it has, then what you are saying is just a bunch of talk and means nothing.

If you are not truly perfect as you seem to think you are, then you are blowing hot air that has no meaning for any of us; it is a bunch of false doctrine that has no effect on your walk with Christ (or mine).

I haven't sinned willfully (sins of lawlessness) since February 9, 1977. Lawlessness is what we are talking about or are you unlearned on the subject of sins unto death and sins not unto death too.

1 John 1:7 is about a person who walks in the Spirit. A person who walks in the Spirit does not commit willful sins, because the seed of the Father is in them 3:9, and yet they still commit sins that are unknown to them, and are unintentionally committed. These are automatically cleansed, thus they are always without sins unto death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You said:



Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ, 1 Peter 1:10-12.

Also, a fruit of the Spirit is longsuffering; and this is a characteristic that one would expect from someone who is saying accurately that they have become perfect.

You obviously have no desire to learn of the power of the Spirit. This is milk - the fundamentals. If you don't want to learn the truth at a kindergarten level, why go on to meat, I will just shake the dust off my feet. I've already dealt with your unbelief longer than I should have.

 

[justbyfaith]

You obviously have no desire to learn of the power of the Spirit. These are milk - the fundamentals. If you don't want to learn the truth at a kindergarten level, why go on to meat, I will just shake the dust off my feet. I've already dealt with your unbelief longer than I should have.

Luke 18:9-14,

And he spake a parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I pay tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, that this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Psalms 51:3 says, For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.

Now I say to you truly that it is the word of my testimony that I was a preacher of the doctrine of entire sanctification for many years.

However, one day, I came across the two passages declared above in the same reading session; and my eyes were opened.

It brought me to the very real understanding that is also according to sound doctrine, that my hope of salvation does not rest in my performance or how well I can walk the Christian walk; but rather my hope rests (securely) in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

It rests in the substitutionary atonement.

That God the Father, in looking at Christ as He died on the Cross of Calvary, saw all my sin(s) and imperfection(s) (which were yet future) as it (they) were laid on Him, and punished my sin in Christ on the Cross as He took the penalty for my sin(s). Now, when He looks at me, He sees the perfect life, blood, and righteousness of Jesus Christ my Lord as His shed blood is appropriated and applied to me.

This is the gospel by which we are saved.

Attempting to be saved through your own performance is an indication that you are missing the reality of what Christ did for you.

Biblical obedience is not done in order to obtain, maintain, or earn salvation: it is done out of thanksgiving and love towards the Lord over what He has done for you in forgiving you of past, present, and future sin(s); and also in granting to you the gift of the Holy Ghost whose love within you is the only motivation, other than thanksgiving, for living a holy life before the Lord (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

Whosoever is forgiven much, loves much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:1-5). And this love is not an impractical love (1 John 3:17-18); but is a love that is the fulfillment of the law's righteousness within the genuine bona fide believer who has a living and saving faith (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

When you begin to lose sight of the fact that Christ has done the work of salvation in forgiving you, and begin to attempt to earn the Lord's acceptance by trying to "do better" or live a holy walk before Him as the reason for His acceptance of you, that is when you begin to forget that salvation is through the shed blood of Christ, and when you begin to lose sight of the faith that is salvation to your soul. The faith that says, "Thank you Lord that I am forgiven through Your shed blood; I am accepted in the Beloved and my position before You is secure. Now I want to serve You and do what is pleasing in Your sight because I love You for what You have done for me."

I tell you truly that anything more or anything less than this is a works salvation, that goes contrary to scripture (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7); which teaches salvation by grace through faith.

You will not be able to save yourself by proclaiming how good you have become to the world: but if you cast yourself on the mercy of the Lord, He will save you by forgiving you of all of your sin(s).

I still preach the doctrine of entire sanctification as a kind of New Testament version of the law as a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

You should continue to seek perfection before the Lord, if you in any way believe that your performance is your acceptance before God.

Because it is not only willful sin(s) that will condemn you, but any sin (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48); if you are putting your trust in law-keeping/works/your Christian performance to save you.

In this, the sin that is unto death (1 John 5:16-17) is any sin that is not forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Sins are not forgiven when a person puts their trust away from the shed blood of Christ to their own works/performance/law-keeping/abstinence from sinning to save them.

I am not saying that if someone puts their trust towards the shed blood of Christ, that this will not result in a holiness of character; for that the redeemed one loves Jesus much because he/she is forgiven much. But it is not the holiness of character that saves, but the shed blood of Christ: the appropriation of which produces both salvation and holiness of character (for they are in a sense one and the same thing).

 

[Helen]

I just read some of these posts...Ha!

.......

 

[justbyfaith]

Wow! Looking back at what I wrote, I have to say that I am surprised at myself at the way that I have come across in some of (most of) what I posted.

It reminds me of 1 Corinthians 13:2.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

I feel that it appears that my posts to @1stCenturyLady were lacking in love by all outward appearances.

God knows that despite appearances, I didn't have any ill-will in what I have posted.

For in looking back at the posts, it also makes me think of Proverbs 28:23.

He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

I give you the option of judging me as having a lack of love; or, you can be obedient to 1 Corinthians 4:5.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I judge myself harshly for the way that I came off. I hope that the reader will understand that the way that I came off is not a reflection of the motivations of my heart. The things that I said are things that I know are salvational to anyone who would receive them.

But I understand that the way that I said them forth was not in a manner in which those who look onward might be able to receive them; because I feel that my attitude in saying forth those things was the kind of speech that might turn off the hearer to the truth of what was being spoken.

I ask the mature believers on these boards to please pray for me, that I might reflect more accurately in my outward sayings what I feel in my heart towards the people to whom I am speaking, which is the love of God.

I feel that I have failed to measure up to what it says in 1 Thessalonians 5:22.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

I have come off as a Bible memory expert who does not know how to disperse his knowledge in a spirit of kindness.

And while there is a place for rebuke in the work of the ministry, it is better to say things with kindness than to speak as with the piercings of the sword.

Before coming here, I was over at CARM.

They are a tough group over there, and in the exchanges with them at that website, a person gets used to harsh dialogue (especially when discussing the kjv-only controversy from a kjv-superior perspective).

I hope that I am forgiven...