The Goddess Man Has Made

[Axehead]

Brother James,

I would submit to the moderators that this thread should not be closed because there are still people calling Mary, the Mother of God and "dispenser of all graces". Therefore, one should be able to put forth proof why they are doing this. This proof comes from no less than Catholic Church approved publications (imprimatur) and writings propagating Mary as an all-powerful Goddess. Let the readers read and decide for themselves if Mary has been made into a Goddess through the Catholic quotes, below. Is the meaning plain to you or not?

Does Mary Have ALL Power?
"And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, "the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence; and he addresses her in these words: "All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." And then he adds, that "when the Mother goes to seek a favour for us from Jesus Christ," (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), "her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a Queen than a handmaid. Jesus is pleased thus to honour His beloved Mother, who honoured Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires." (Glories of Mary, 201, 202)

"Thou, then oh Mary, being the Mother of God, canst save all men by thy prayers, which are enforced by a Mother's authority" (Glories of Mary, 211)

Can Mary Command the Son?
"Command thy Son" (Catholic Prayer Book according to Question Box, 1913 edition, 520)

Can Mary Overrule the Son?
"But, now if God is offended with any sinner, and Mary undertakes to protect him, she restrains the Son from punishing him and saves him" (Glories of Mary, 133). Glories of Mary, translated From The Italian St. Alphonsus Liguori Founder Of The Congregation Of The Holy Redeemer, P.J. Kenedy & Sons, N.Y. 1852, Imprimatur

(Imprimatur - In the Catholic Church, an imprimatur is an official declaration by a Church authority that a book or other printed work may be published.)

Does Mary Dethrone Christ, Does She Now Have the Kingdom?
"She possesses, by right, the whole kindgom of her son" (Glories of Mary, 280)

Is Jesus Now Mary's Deacon?
"Now He lifts His eyes to her, knowing that she is His mother. At every nod of her eyes He plays the part of the "subdeacon" and grants her every wish" (New Interpretation of the Mass, Borgmann, 57)

Does God Now Obey Mary?
"St. Bernardine of Sienna does not hesitate to say that all obey the commands of Mary, EVEN GOD HIMSELF" (Glories of Mary, 202)


Axehead

 

[aspen]

Hey, I have no problem calling her the mother of my Lord; after all it is Biblical to do so. It is also correct to say that everyone who obeys Mary, obeys God because Mary does the perfect will of her Son. All people who are redeemed do the perfect will of God because they are redeemed. Pretty basic stuff........

 

[epostle1]

Hey, I have no problem calling her the mother of my Lord; after all it is Biblical to do so. It is also correct to say that everyone who obeys Mary, obeys God because Mary does the perfect will of her Son. All people who are redeemed do the perfect will of God because they are redeemed. Pretty basic stuff........

Yes, aspen2, but then we get Matthew 12:46-50 that anti-Catholics use. They act is if they have a bat to beat Catholics with when in fact their eisegesis is a novel tradition, twisting scripture to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16) It may have been explained to them 1000 times, but they keep using it anyway. If Jesus is denigrating His mother as they may claim, they are indirectly accusing Jesus of violating the 4rth commandment with their tradition. We are all His mother and brothers when we do the will of God. If Mary is inferior to those who do the will of God as anti-Catholics suggest, then how could Jesus have been incarnated? Mary is the perfect model of faith, that is what Jesus means. He is not denigrating his mother.

It goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. Remember, this quote is used to support that Mary had other children because it uses the term "brothers". Cousins and kinsmen is a term used interchangeably in scripture under the umbrella word "brother", because there is no Greek or Aramaic word for cousin. All the early reformers taught this. There were about 120 "brethren" at Pentacost. Mary would have to be consecutively pregnant for 90 years to produce that many "brethren". Such is the insanity of anti-Catholic bigotry. Mary having other children is a blasphemy to the uniqueness of the birth of Christ. It is a 19th century invention, made popular only recently in anti-Catholic circles. It is a doctrine of demons. Yet we get this:

I think you've captured here the biggest difficulty I've come across in these discussions - that obeying the word of God is not seen as the key to pleasing God and finding eternal life is accessible, but rather many objections to scripture are created by RCC doctrine which ordinary people latch onto, and hold vigourously despite their futility and powerlessness to save souls. It is its own scandal, in the opposite direction from the cross.

Br. James says it well.

Sure, and I've criticized both. You can say what you believe without being rude, but it seems like people prefer to be rude to one another. Don't you think that reflects badly on people? Always that little twist of the knife at the end, always some way of getting in a dig. Ugliness doesn't have to be used. It's a choice.

I do my best to avoid being ugly. But if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Dragonfly's quote is just that...
quack... quack... quack.

No offense intended to her personhood, of course.

 

[Axehead]

Yes, aspen2, but then we get Matthew 12:46-50 that anti-Catholics use.

Ahem, <cough, cough>, non-Catholics, if you please. No one here is anti-people (Catholics), we just don't like Scripture twisting, adding and subtracting. We love you too, Kepha.

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

Ahem, <cough, cough>, non-Catholics, if you please. No one here is anti-people (Catholics), we just don't like Scripture twisting, adding and subtracting. We love you too, Kepha.

Axehead

I also love my brothers and sisters in Christ ,but I also love and honor my heavenly mother, albeit honoring Mary below Jesus ,my Lord and Savior. Jesus loves and honors His mother Mary because Jesus, as we do, follows the Ten Commandments [ Matt.19: 17 ] Jesus then of course follows the Fourth Commandment of ; "To Honor your Father and Mother " If Jesus is our Spiritual Heavenly Brother then Mary is also our heavenly spiritual mother.Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus [ mankinds Lord/God and Savior ] those are the words of Elizabeth from the Holy Bible.only very important Words are found in our Bibles. Mary the mother of our Lord is very important John the Baptist called Jesus "the Lamb of God " Mary carried the ultimate Sacrificial Lamb of mankind in her womb which was a sacred Tabernacle as described from the OT.

 

[epostle1]

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ B΄ 2:15 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
σπουδaσον σεaυτον δοκιμον πaρaστησaι τω θεω εργaτην aνεπaισχυντον ορθοτομουντa τον λογον της aληθειaς

2 Tim 2:15 (AKJV) Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The scriptural rosary is an excellent way to do a Bible study. A single rosary bears 50 bible verses to meditate on, internalize, chew on, put in your heart. If a person hates women and had a bad mother, and can't relate at all with Mary's Divine Maternity, they can always replace the "Hail Mary" with the Prayer of Jabez or a favorite Psalm verse. Each time the prayer is repeated, you read a Bible verse that follows a specific theme. In 4 days you will have absorbed 200 Bible quotes, and it takes less than 20 minutes a day. Let me give you a sample for one decade of the rosary, its only ten verses, but you will get the idea:

5. THE CRUCIFIXION

Jesus died on the cross. With it came our redemption, our salvation. Before His final breath, He gave the world His Mother, and gave her a role in the salvation of all mankind by making us all, her children. Just as she was there, at the foot of the cross, she asks us to pray at the foot of the cross. Our forgiveness is there. Great graces are there. Love the cross. In this meditation, is our salvation.​

Prayer Intention Let us pray for forgiveness and as Jesus forgave on the cross, let us pray for the grace to forgive others. Let us give all our past pain to Jesus. It is why He is on the cross.
Our Father...
1. Jesus said, Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing. (Lk. 23:34)
Hail Mary...
2. One of the criminals said, "Jesus, remember me You enter upon Your reign". And Jesus replied, "I say unto you; this day you will be with Me in paradise." (Lk 23:42-43)
Hail Mary...
3. Seeing His Mother there with the disciple whom He loved, Jesus said to His Mother, "Woman, there is your son." (Jn. 19:26)
Hail Mary...
4. In turn, He said to the disciple, "There is your Mother." From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care. (Jn. 19:27)
Hail Mary....
5. Then toward midafternoon, Jesus cried out in a loud tone, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Mt. 27:46)
Hail Mary....
6. Jesus realizing that everything was now finished, said to fulfill the Scriptures, "I am thirsty." There was a jar there, full of common wine They stuck a sponge soaked in this wine on a stick, and raised it to His lips. (Jn. 19:28)
Hail Mary....
7. When Jesus took the wine, He said, "Now it is finished." (Jn. 19:30)
Hail Mary....
8. Jesus uttered a loud cry and said, "Father; into Your hands I commend My spirit". After He said this, He expired. (Lk. 23:46)
Hail Mary....
9. Darkness came over the whole land until midafternoon with an eclipse of the sun. The curtain in the sanctuary was torn in two. (Lk. 23:44-45)
Hail Mary....
10. They took Jesus' body, and in accordance with Jewish burial custom, bound it up in wrappings of cloth with perfumed oils. (Jn. 19:40)
Hail Mary....

Of course there is all the in between prayers, but all that can be found on line, and you can select from dozens of good sites.

1 Cor. 2:2 - Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.

 

[Brother James]

Refering to Mary as "our heavenly mother" is not going to convert any non-catholic Christians to Catholicism. At least not any who know the Bible. That's the kind of over-the-top rhetoric that seems to indicate a very inapprpriate attitude toward her. It elevates a human being to the rank of a heavenly parent, of which we have One.

 

[epostle1]

Refering to Mary as "our heavenly mother" is not going to convert any non-catholic Christians to Catholicism. At least not any who know the Bible. That's the kind of over-the-top rhetoric that seems to indicate a very inapprpriate attitude toward her. It elevates a human being to the rank of a heavenly parent, of which we have One.

I have a Bible question for you, Br. James. Gen. 3:15 and Rev. 12:17 are the only verses in the Bible where you find a serpent (snake, dragon) and a *woman* in the same verse. In my opinion, these two verses are bridged by Luke 2:35. You know your Bible...do you have any over-the-top rhetoric to contribute?

 

[Nomad]

I have a Bible question for you, Br. James. Gen. 3:15 and Rev. 12:17 are the only verses in the Bible where you find a serpent (snake, dragon) and a *woman* in the same verse. In my opinion, these two verses are bridged by Luke 2:35. You know your Bible...do you have any over-the-top rhetoric to contribute?

What is this connection you see between Luke 2:35 and those other verses?

 

[Axehead]

One of the first things that stands out is that the setting is in heaven. John begins by indicating that he saw a "great wonder appear in heaven" (12:1). Therefore, we should not interpret earthly events as directly equal to that which is being shown to John, in heaven.

What did John see in the heavenlies, but "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). John goes on to say that she bore a male child (12:5) who is apparently the Messiah. The Roman Catholic Church interpretation has always given undue emphasis to Mary the physical mother of Jesus, so it is not surprising that they would seize upon this “woman” in the heavenlies, as their Mary. You would expect them to. No surprise.

Still, others see this woman as Eve who was promised that she would have "enmity with the serpent" and her seed “shall bruise thy head", (the serpent’s head).

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eve, even thought she had borne "the manchild of Jehovah" (Gen. 4:1) when she gave birth to her first son, Cain.

Other interpretations are the "woman" is the physical nation and race of Israel, since Jesus was born into their ethnic group as a Jew or the "woman" is identified as the Christian church, and yet another one is the one that explains it is through the activity of the church that the life of Jesus is given birth spiritually and regeneratively in people.

But, John is relating events in heaven and not on earth and all of these different variations are referring to events happening on the earth and nothing at all about the “heavenlies”.

Let’s look at the other “woman” being identified. This "woman" and the "mystery of the woman" who is "Babylon the great, the mother of harlots" (17:4), this "woman who is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth" (17:18). This "woman" who is also being identified as a “mother”, (the mother of religion, Satan and all his religious counterfeits) is likened to a city. Could it be that the previous “mother” (of heavenly Messianic maternity) is also to be identified as a city or a community? Could this possibly be what Paul was expressing when he penned, "the Jerusalem above is our mother" (Gal. 4:26). The heavenly community, identified as the City of Peace, Jerusalem, can also be understood to provide the spiritual maternity of the Messiah. Let’s find some scriptures that illuminate this concept.

If we accept this latter interpretation of the "woman" as "Jerusalem above" in heaven, then it is understandable that she is "clothed with the sun" (12:1), in the garment of God's light. The "Jerusalem above" is a spiritual reality that is above any kind of physical phenomena, and therefore the "moon is under her feet" (12:1). The number twelve is representative of God's people, and here we have the woman being symbolized as having "a crown of twelve stars" (12:1), for the "Jerusalem above" is comprised of the sum total of God's people.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The heavenly "woman" was pregnant "with child" (12:2). Did not Isaiah use similar concepts and imagery of physical Israel being pregnant, but they could not give birth to a deliverer, only "to wind".

Isa 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
Isa 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

The "Jerusalem above" provides heavenly maternity for the Messiah, and does "give birth to a son" (12:5). "Zion travailed and brought forth her children" (Isa. 66:7-9).

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed (speaking of Jerusalem above), she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child <<<< There's that manchild (Messiah) that Eve was thinking about

ZION TRAVAILED
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (who delivered? Read the next verse)

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (the first born was Jesus Christ)

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Jerusalem above is our “Mother”.

Gal_4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

And that my friend, has a scriptural basis.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Refering to Mary as "our heavenly mother" is not going to convert any non-catholic Christians to Catholicism.

What makes you think I am trying to convert anybody? It doesn't work that way in Catholicism. You come in on your own steam or you don't come. Besides, trying to convert anyone would be promoting, which is against the rules. Explaining and defending is not promoting. In my opinion, perpetually promoting Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox and thousands of other church founders is promoting...but it's not my forum.

At least not any who know the Bible.

Mariology explodes the scriptures into a perpetual dazzling display of fireworks, (metaphorically speaking) while Bible alone theology leaves you with just reading the package.

James, you can't see the forest for the trees. You can call Jesus your Brother, which He is, but you claim no mother. You are in the family of God but choose to live in a single parent household. You are free to do that. You have Jesus in your heart, and are One with the Father in that sense, but deny that the Jesus in your heart has a human mother. Jesus had a human mother in Bethlehem and that is as far as it goes with you. You say that the New Adam redeemed the world, which He did, but deny that the New Eve is the mother of humanity. What does "Eve" mean, James? Any student of the Bible knows the answer to that question.You have a King without a queen, contrary to the structure of the Davidic Kingdom.

Your system does violence to the Bible and all of Christian history.

What is this connection you see between Luke 2:35 and those other verses?

In 25 words or less? Nomad, I see you are a man of humility and courage.

Let's begin here:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q105.htm

I'm really pressed for time today. I'll get back later.

 

[Nomad]

[/color]

In 25 words or less? Nomad, I see you are a man of humility and courage.

Let's begin here:

http://www.cin.org/u...stions/q105.htm

I'm really pressed for time today. I'll get back later.

O.k., that 's pretty much where I thought you were going. I just wanted to make sure.

Well, I did learn one thing. I didn't know that the New American Bible abandoned the variant reading of Genesis 3:15 found in the Vulgate and subsequently the Douay-Rheims. That being the case, there is only one thing I would say. If I were a Roman Catholic I think I would have a hard time with the concept that Mary indirectly crushed the serpents head because she gave birth to Jesus. It's only foundation would seem to be a leap of logic. I don't say that to be provocative or insulting. I'm just surprised that this particular belief wasn't abandoned right along with the textual variant that appears to have started it.

 

[epostle1]

O.k., that 's pretty much where I thought you were going. I just wanted to make sure.

Well, I did learn one thing. I didn't know that the New American Bible abandoned the variant reading of Genesis 3:15 found in the Vulgate and subsequently the Douay-Rheims. That being the case, there is only one thing I would say. If I were a Roman Catholic I think I would have a hard time with the concept that Mary indirectly crushed the serpents head because she gave birth to Jesus. It's only foundation would seem to be a leap of logic. I don't say that to be provocative or insulting. I'm just surprised that this particular belief wasn't abandoned right along with the textual variant that appears to have started it.

Hi Nomad,

Nobody is abandoning anything. The woman’s offspring is primarily Jesus Christ, no matter what one's favorite translational flavor might be. I think you will agree that no amount of contextual variant hair splitting is going to change that. There is no exegetical or contextual reason for eliminating the possibility that the woman’s offspring is secondarily the Church, (using the feminine or neutral pronouns) because the concept is affirmed in Luke 2:24-34 and Rev. 12:17 Does not Satan undergo a defeat every time someone gets saved???

Even though I have a New American Standard, you can tell my preference is with the feminine or neutral pronouns, because I think that is what God originally intended. It harmonizes with scripture more than masculine pronouns.

The article requires concentration, and I wish James Akin was more articulate. So it is easy to misunderstand it.

The contextual variant probably started with the original Hebrew that resulted in modern translations using masculine pronouns, including the Vulgate. That is what it says. The article does not say the contextual variant began with the Vulgate. It began with the original Hebrew. Jerome enlisted the aid of rabbis in his day which would explain the masculine pronouns. He translated what he saw. But not all editions of the time did this.

I think it was an honest mistake. I’m guessing that it was because of the Jews absolute commitment to accuracy that may have caused this contextual variant, not in spite of it. Why? Because women don’t produce seed (Gk. spermatos), men do. Nowhere else in scripture is “seed of the woman” used. A scribe may have scratched his head thinking, “This can’t be right, I am obligated to fix it.”

Regarding single use terms, no where else in scripture is kecharitomene (Full of Grace) used either, except to describe Jesus Christ.

God’s truth trumps the limitations of human language. Simeon’s prophecy sheds light on what was hidden in the OT. But we are still making quantum leaps here. God’s covenant goes
from a prophetic reality in Genesis
to a physical realty in the Ark of the Old Covenant,
to a human reality in the Gospels as Ark of the New Covenant
to a heavenly reality in Revelation as the Ark of God in Rev. 11:19.

God's covenants are ordered and progressive, not chaotic.

You can nit pick which translations are the “correct” ones ‘til the cows come home. Protestant translations use the feminine or neutral pronouns more than than they do the masculine pronouns, as we see in the ones found in this list,

In Rev. 12:17, the woman’s *offspring* is the Church. Any serious bible student knows this. Maybe we can find some common ground in which to carry on our discussion. What is the Calvinist understanding of "thoughts of many hearts may be revealed" in Luke 2:34-35?

What was hidden in Gen. 3:15 is revealed in Simeon’s prophecy and made manifest when a sword pierced Mary’s soul as she stood at the foot of the cross as she watched her Son die a brutal death. Simeon prophesied this. Luke 2:34-35 Mary suffered an interior martyrdom, similar to any mother would when her veteran son comes home in a coffin. Such horrendous suffering is not without meaning in our faith, because Mary knows what its like. Identifying with her suffering is not paganism. It puts us at the foot of the cross where "the thoughts of many hearts are laid bare". Luke 2:34-35 There is no greater suffering than to watch your child die. We have a human *woman*, a mother in heaven to console us. You don't.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." ​

John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.​

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."​

John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.​

Turn up your speakers:
Ave Maria- Celine Dion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHBISWEd0pg

Ave Maria! Maiden mild
Oh listen to a maiden's prayer
For thou canst hear amid the wild
it is thou, it is thou canst save amid, despair.
We slumber safely till the morrow
Though we've by man outcast reviled
Oh Maiden see a maiden's sorrow
Oh Mother hear a suppliant child
Ave Maria

Ave Maria gratia plena
Maria gratia plena
Maria gratia plena
Ave ave dominus
Dominus tecum

The murky cavern's air so heavy
Shall breathe of balm if thou hast smiled
Oh Maiden hear a maiden pleadin'
Oh Mother hear a suppliant child
Ave Maria
Ave Maria

 

[Axehead]

For those of you who did not see this.

One of the first things that stands out is that the setting is in heaven. John begins by indicating that he saw a "great wonder appear in heaven" (12:1). Therefore, we should not interpret earthly events as directly equal to that which is being shown to John, in heaven.

What did John see in the heavenlies, but "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). John goes on to say that she bore a male child (12:5) who is apparently the Messiah. The Roman Catholic Church interpretation has always given undue emphasis to Mary the physical mother of Jesus, so it is not surprising that they would seize upon this “woman” in the heavenlies, as their Mary. You would expect them to. No surprise.

Still, others see this woman as Eve who was promised that she would have "enmity with the serpent" and her seed “shall bruise thy head", (the serpent’s head).

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eve, even thought she had borne "the manchild of Jehovah" (Gen. 4:1) when she gave birth to her first son, Cain.

Other interpretations are the "woman" is the physical nation and race of Israel, since Jesus was born into their ethnic group as a Jew or the "woman" is identified as the Christian church, and yet another one is the one that explains it is through the activity of the church that the life of Jesus is given birth spiritually and regeneratively in people.

But, John is relating events in heaven and not on earth and all of these different variations are referring to events happening on the earth and nothing at all about the “heavenlies”.

Let’s look at the other “woman” being identified. This "woman" and the "mystery of the woman" who is "Babylon the great, the mother of harlots" (17:4), this "woman who is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth" (17:18). This "woman" who is also being identified as a “mother”, (the mother of religion, Satan and all his religious counterfeits) is likened to a city. Could it be that the previous “mother” (of heavenly Messianic maternity) is also to be identified as a city or a community? Could this possibly be what Paul was expressing when he penned, "the Jerusalem above is our mother" (Gal. 4:26). The heavenly community, identified as the City of Peace, Jerusalem, can also be understood to provide the spiritual maternity of the Messiah. Let’s find some scriptures that illuminate this concept.

If we accept this latter interpretation of the "woman" as "Jerusalem above" in heaven, then it is understandable that she is "clothed with the sun" (12:1), in the garment of God's light. The "Jerusalem above" is a spiritual reality that is above any kind of physical phenomena, and therefore the "moon is under her feet" (12:1). The number twelve is representative of God's people, and here we have the woman being symbolized as having "a crown of twelve stars" (12:1), for the "Jerusalem above" is comprised of the sum total of God's people.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The heavenly "woman" was pregnant "with child" (12:2). Did not Isaiah use similar concepts and imagery of physical Israel being pregnant, but they could not give birth to a deliverer, only "to wind".

Isa 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
Isa 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

The "Jerusalem above" provides heavenly maternity for the Messiah, and does "give birth to a son" (12:5). "Zion travailed and brought forth her children" (Isa. 66:7-9).

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed (speaking of Jerusalem above), she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child <<<< There's that manchild (Messiah) that Eve was thinking about

ZION TRAVAILED
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (who delivered? Read the next verse)

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (the first born was Jesus Christ)

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shutthe womb? saith thy God.

Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Jerusalem above is our “Mother”.

Gal_4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

And that my friend, has a scriptural basis.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

The difference between truth and un-truths is that truth provides food for the soul, untruths are like popcorn with no butter or salt.

As the new ‘daughter of Zion’, Mary represents all humanity, called to the marriage banquet which celebrates God’s Covenant with his people,

1. At the time of the Annunciation, Mary, the "exalted daughter of Zion" (Lumen gentium, n. 55), is greeted by the angel as the representative of humanity, called to give her own consent to the Incarnation of the Son of God.
The first word the angel addresses to her is an invitation to chaire, that is, "rejoice". The Greek term has been translated in Latin with "Ave", a simple expression of greeting which does not seem to correspond fully to the divine messenger's intentions and the context in which the meeting takes place.

Of course, chaire was also a form of greeting frequently used by the Greeks, but the extraordinary circumstances in which it is uttered have nothing to do with the atmosphere of an habitual meeting. In fact, we must not forget that the angel is aware of bringing an announcement that is unique in human history: thus a simple, normal greeting would be out of place. Instead, the reference to the original meaning of the expression chaire, which is "rejoice", seems more suitable for this exceptional occasion.
As the Greek Fathers in particular constantly pointed out, citing various prophetic oracles, the invitation to joy is especially appropriate for the announcement of the Messiah's coming.
Rejoice, for the Lord has done great things

2. Our thoughts turn first of all to the Prophet Zephaniah. The text of the Annunciation shows a significant parallelism with his oracle: "Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!" (Zep 3:14). There is the invitation to "Rejoice and exult with all your heart" (v. 14). Mention is made of the Lord's presence: "The King of Israel, the Lord, is in your midst" (v. 15). There is the exhortation not to be afraid: "Do not fear, O Zion, let not your hands grow weak" (v. 16). Finally, there is the promise of God's saving intervention: "The Lord your God is in your midst, a warrior who gives victory" (v. 17). The comparisons are so numerous and regular that they lead one to recognize Mary as the new "daughter of Zion", who has full reason to rejoice because God has decided to fulfil his plan of salvation.

A similar invitation to joy, even if it is in a different context, comes from Joel's prophecy: "Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice, for the Lord has done great things!... You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel" (Jl 2:21-27).

3. Also significant is the oracle of Zechariah, cited in connection with Jesus' entry into Jerusalem (Matt 21:5; John 12:15). In it the reason for joy is seen in the coming of the Messianic king: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble ... and he shall command peace to the nations" (Zec 9:9-10).

Finally, the announcement of joy to the new Zion springs, in the Book of Isaiah, from its numerous posterity, a sign of divine blessing: "Sing O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in travail! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her that is married, says the Lord" (Is 54:1).

The three reasons for the invitation to God's saving presence among his people, the coming of the messianic king and gratuitous and superabundant fruitfulness, find their fulfilment in Mary. They justify the pregnant meaning attributed by Tradition to the angel's greeting. By inviting her to give her assent to the fulfilment of the messianic promise and announcing to her the most high dignity of being Mother of the Lord, the angel could not but invite her to rejoice. Indeed, as the Council reminds us: "After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted daughter of Zion, and the new plan of salvation is established, when the Son of God has taken human nature from her, that he might in the mysteries of his flesh free man from sin" (Lumen gentium, n. 55).

4. The account of the Annunciation allows us to recognize in Mary the new "daughter of Zion", invited by God to deep joy. It expresses her extraordinary role as mother of the Messiah, indeed, as mother of the Son of God. The Virgin accepts the message on behalf of the people of David, but we can say that she accepts it on behalf of all humanity, because the Old Testament extended the role of the Davidic Messiah to all nations (cf. Psalm 2:8; Psalm 71:8). In the divine intention, the announcement addressed to her looks to universal salvation.

Mary welcomes joy foretold by prophets
To confirm this universal perspective of God's plan, we can recall several Old and New Testament texts which compare salvation to a great feast for all peoples on Mount Zion (cf. Is 25:6f.) and which announce the final banquet of God's kingdom (cf. Mt 22:1-10).
As "daughter of Zion", Mary is the Virgin of the Covenant which God establishes with all humanity. Mary's representational role in this event is clear. And it is significant that it is a woman who carries out this function.

5. As the new "daughter of Zion", Mary in fact is particularly suited to entering into the spousal Covenant with God. More and better than any member of the Chosen People, she can offer the Lord the true heart of a Bride.
With Mary, "daughter of Zion" is not merely a collective subject, but a person who represents humanity and, at the moment of the Annunciation, she responds to the proposal of divine love with her own spousal love. Thus she welcomes in a quite special way the joy foretold by the prophecies, a joy which reaches its peak here in the fulfilment of God's plan.

by Pope John Paul II (who had two doctorates)

Consider this illustration. You are in a taxi and the taxi crashes breaking your leg. A bone is protruding from your leg. On the scene are the taxi driver who barely knows first aid and a passerby who happens to be an orthopedic surgeon. Whose “opinion” has precedence over how your leg will be treated? Does the taxi driver have an equal opinion to the orthopedic surgeon? Does the taxi driver even have a right to an opinion?

The taxi driver trying to assert a contrary opinion against the orthopedic surgeon’s professional expertise is utter arrogant foolishness; and to accept the taxi driver’s opinion over the surgeon’s risks losing your leg or even your life.
Three Secret Strategies of Satan

 

[dragonfly]

As the new ‘daughter of Zion’, Mary represents all humanity

I have a question.


If what you say is true, why was she not crucified instead of Jesus the Messiah?


You know, the more you post, the more you lend justification to Axehead's assertions that Mary has been given a false position not justified by Biblical doctrine - the position of an idol in the hearts of the people - because her non-scriptural roles are entirely imagined.


Psalm 2
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sits in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak to them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me,
Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Thou [the Son] shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. [them = ruling spirits over nations]

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.



Footnote:

1 Thess 5:9, 10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake [be alive] or sleep [die], we should live together with him.

Romans 6:20 - 23
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


In other words, eternal life is a gift. No-one has to 'win' it, as the NJB puts in 1 Thess 5:9.

Jesus Christ has already done that on our behalf. (Read Romans 6 all through.) All we have to do is receive it, and then walk in the light as children of light, worthy of the vocation to which we've been called.

 

[epostle1]

I have a question.


If what you say is true, why was she not crucified instead of Jesus the Messiah?

Most questions I get are sadistic insults, not questions at all. Perhaps you are beginning to think for yourself instead of regurgitation the usual anti-Catholic vitriol. I'm taking this as an honest question.

Mary's sufferings were subordinate to Christ's crucifixion. The same as when you suffer, you unite your sufferings with Christs sufferings, which furthers Christs redemption. Redemptive suffering is a concept sorely lacking in the body of Christ. http://www.scripture.../suffering.html

Do you think Simeon's prophecy had nothing to do with God's plan of salvation? Luke 2:34-35. As long as you refuse to consider the relevance of this prophecy, as well as Gen. 3:15, and Rev. 12:17 and dozens of other relevant scripture, then no amount of eloquent elaboration is going to change your prejudice.

You know, the more you post, the more you lend justification to Axehead's assertions that Mary has been given a false position not justified by Biblical doctrine - the position of an idol in the hearts of the people - because her non-scriptural roles are entirely imagined.

My posts are open for public scrutiny, the same as everyone else. If I have imagined any non-scriptural roles, then use the quote feature. For a Christian who claims to have the Holy Spirit that stops you from sin, why do you slander me?

Psalm 2
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sits in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak to them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me,
Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Thou [the Son] shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. [them = ruling spirits over nations]

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.



Footnote:

1 Thess 5:9, 10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake [be alive] or sleep [die], we should live together with him.

Romans 6:20 - 23
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


In other words, eternal life is a gift. No-one has to 'win' it, as the NJB puts in 1 Thess 5:9.

Jesus Christ has already done that on our behalf. (Read Romans 6 all through.) All we have to do is receive it, and then walk in the light as children of light, worthy of the vocation to which we've been called.

How does any of this negate what I have posted? Do you ever scroll back in any thread or just react to the last post?

 

[Mungo]

I have a question.


If what you say is true, why was she not crucified instead of Jesus the Messiah?#

What a bizzare question.

How has it anything to do with what kepha said?

You know, the more you post, the more you lend justification to Axehead's assertions that Mary has been given a false position not justified by Biblical doctrine - the position of an idol in the hearts of the people - because her non-scriptural roles are entirely imagined.


Psalm 2
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sits in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak to them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me,
Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Thou [the Son] shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. [them = ruling spirits over nations]

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

Posting a lot of irrelevant scriptures does not make an argument!

An argument has a basic structure:

Premise 1, with evidence
Premise 2, with evidence
Conclusion based on the premises.

Yours follows the pattern:

Assertion: - you imagine things
Scripture about imagining things
Various random scriptures.

 

[Nomad]

Nobody is abandoning anything.

Hi Kepha,

I think we may have our wires crossed, so to speak. Here's what I was talking about:

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - Douay-Rheims

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." - New American Bible

You can see here that the modern Catholic version follows the Hebrew text while the Douay-Rheims follows later versions of the Vulgate. The article you linked to goes on to say:

People notice this variant today because the expression found in the Douay-Rheims has been the basis of some popular Catholic art, showing a serene Mary standing over a crushed serpent...

...This does not mean that the idea cannot be validly applied to Mary as well. Through her cooperation in the incarnation of Christ... http://www.cin.org/u...stions/q105.htm

Regarding single use terms, no where else in scripture is kecharitomene (Full of Grace) used either, except to describe Jesus Christ.

It's actually used twice in the NT. The second occurrence is found in Ephesians 1:6, where Paul uses it to describe himself and the Ephesians.

What is the Calvinist understanding of "thoughts of many hearts may be revealed" in Luke 2:34-35?

Not to be overlooked is the phrase in Israel. Even in Israel, in spite of all its advantages, there would be this sharp division between those who reject Jesus, the vast majority (John 1:11; 6:66), and those who welcome and embrace him (1:12, 13)...

...By means of their attitude to Jesus men would be constantly revealing the thoughts or deliberations of their hearts. They would show whether they were “for” or “against” him. Neutrality would be forever impossible (Luke 11:23; cf. Matt. 12:30).

In a parenthesis Simeon, in addressing Mary, states that a sword would pierce her soul; in fact, as the original indicates, a large and broad sword, the symbol of intense pain, of frightful and piercing anguish. For the fulfilment see John 19:25–27.

Hendriksen, William ; Kistemaker, Simon J.: New Testament Commentary : Exposition of the Gospel According to Luke. Grand Rapids : Baker Book House, 1953-2001 (New Testament Commentary 11), S. 170

 

[Axehead]

Satan Hates Christ and all who love Him

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.